Grappler Baki: Making a Tier 7 verse Tier 7

[Twellas]

Also what is your opinion on this thread? Is the calc valid and if yes what mag are you supporting?

I have no idea about the calc, but I guess magnitude 6 works, I don't see anything below this being able to make people lose their footing

But anyways I just don't want everyone to scale to his feat. I still consider it absurd so I would only prefer the god tiers to scale. Maybe the others can scale to all the other feats except this one.

I mean, that's the deal, it feels wrong for goobers like IGARI and the Death Row inmates to scale to this feat, but there really isn't a debunk to this line of scaling. Best you can do is come up with some reason for why everyone who ever fought Yujiro before the MT suddenly got weaker. But even then, you have the Kaku Kaioh stuff.

 

[Twellas]

This is the best answer for the whole thread

Just so you know, I'm personally 1000% down to scaling the whole verse like that (did you know that GB Gaia was already compared to a nuke?) lmao. It's just that I know for a fact the Wiki won't be (for whatever reason)

 

[NikHelton]

Look I am tired of this. Can't respond anymore. You are way too hardheaded.

I'm sorry that I'm holding a position from the same topic where we refuted the feat together with a member of the calculation group, which has been done several times before, and that I'm referring to how the wiki works.

 

[Passersby]

100% lol, as it goes, this feat would quite literally scale to every single character in the maximum tournament and after lmao.
Baki after seeing Yujiro perform the feat was 100% confident Doppo could defeat Yujiro. Doppo was beating the DOGSHIT out of Yujiro in the fight to the point where Yujiro was getting mad because he couldn't do anything to him. He had to enter Demon Back (which, as we know from Baki, even an imperfect demon back can cover a no-sell level gap). Doppo then goes on to be stated to be inferior to Katsumi (who, BTW, the same Doppo considers to be "the strongest man" and he thinks he can beat ANYONE) and then pretty much everyone in the Maximum tournament end up scaling in some way or another to Doppo and Katsumi.
Oh also, the mach punch was created by Katsumi in collaboration with Doppo in order to beat Yujiro, Hanayama eats like 4 of those without even getting wobbled.

People try and "fix" this by saying that Doppo got weaker after the Yujiro fight, which is not only never stated or even implied (the only thing that can even remotely be considered to imply this is the fact that Doppo says that his current level is "nothing" if he wants to beat Yujiro, which is a statement given with the knowledge that 1)Yujiro has the demon back and 2)Yujiro gets constantly stronger at an insane rate, so it doesn't even necessarily mean Doppo is any weaker than he was, especially since he himself thinks that his rehabilitation went well and everyone of his students, who spar him daily considers him to "be back") it's outright debunked by things such as Katsumi being shocked at how good his physique is in NGB (Katsumi would obviously know Doppo's physique during the first saga of the series) and, most directly, in the most recent series, where Doppo is stated to be "the same" as he was at the time of his debut in the arena and he "doesn't show the slightest sign of aging" (so yeah, age being a factor in him getting weaker is debunked, not that it was a reasonable logic to begin with given how Shibukawa is older than Doppo and still kicking).

Now, let's ignore Doppo for a second, let's just say he got weaker (he didn't). Then, what about Motobe? Motobe could tank hits from Yujiro without sustaining any serious injury, could manipulate his joints and was considered worthy of seeing Yujiro's demon back. Motobe would then go on to be completely humiliated in the MT. Did motobe also get weaker?

The only real "debunk" to this is "well, Doppo and Motobe struggle with X and Y character, but then in the MT Yujiro comes up and no-diffs them, this must mean they got weaker", which is a non argument, because the very first thing we are told about Yujiro in the ENTIRE SERIES is that he grows stronger (and more skilled) at an INSANE rate, to the point where Strydum is like "during the few minutes we've spent talking, Yujiro just got stronger". So Yujiro no-diffing characters that scale to people who previously beat him is not a debunk to the fact that said people scale to him, it's just proof of Yujiro getting stronger at a faster rate than anyone else since their first fight.

Yujiro is a constantly moving goal-post: in NGB Kaku Kaioh was 100% down to fighting a demon back Yujiro, drew blood from him, and only resorted to playing dead once he was 100% sure he'd die, meanwhile, at the start of the Pickle arc he straight up says he wouldn't even TRY to fight a casual Pickle, the same Pickle who would go on to be hurt by Katsumi. In the same vein, Retsu in SoO is stated to be "the best in the 4000 year history of Chinese martial arts", which is also supported by the fact that he mastered Shaori in only a few days, while it took Kaku several decades to do so.
This is portrayed as late as the end of Baki Dou 2, where a post-father-son-fight Baki (who btw, upped his training to the point where he is getting VISIBLY bigger, and I don't think i need to tell you how good baki did against Yujiro during that fight) states that he couldn't possibly beat Sukune in a head on fight to the point where his body instinctively used a technique to negate his durability, Yujiro one-shots him casually.

...well then, suffice to say this makes the feat even more questionable


why are we even scaling literally everyone to the only tier 7 feat the entire series has? that's the definition of an outlier when every single other feat is tier 9 or tier 8 at best


oh well

 

[NikHelton]

Just so you know, I'm personally 1000% down to scaling the whole verse like that (did you know that GB Gaia was already compared to a nuke?) lmao. It's just that I know for a fact the Wiki won't be (for whatever reason)

The scaling chain has always been of great importance to me. I didn't understand how it happened that Doppo weakened a thousand times, only to return later, but at a lower level

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I have no idea about the calc, but I guess magnitude 6 works, I don't see anything below this being able to make people lose their footing

So you are also in support of this value?

Kaku Kaioh stuff.

Kaku Kaioh I feel should still scale. He is still a very important character and just below musashi on skill. Also Pickle, Baki, Musashi, Yuichiro. Noone else though because at least I feel noone was that strong. Damn the fight with Doppo fricked this up so bad.

I'm sorry that I'm holding a position from the same topic where we refuted the feat together with a member of the calculation group, which has been done several times before, and that I'm referring to how the wiki works.

Well 3 cgm members have argued for this so sorry.

The scaling chain has always been of great importance to me. I didn't understand how it happened that Doppo weakened a thousand times, only to return later, but at a lower level

You do understand this guy feels everyone should scale to this?

oh well

This is more so a separate issue than the calc and is just Yujiro's standing in the verse. He is the god-god tier. Theoretically baki has reached his level since their fight. Practically he isn't a fart in the wind because as the guy said he is a moving goalpost. Like I wouldn't mind scaling Yujiro alone to this feat and his father due to implications that he was even stronger. That's because of what Yujiro is in the verse and even in the non-canon (probably) isekai Retsu will still say to the final bad guy nah you aren't shit to Yujiro.

Anyways I can't comment much more on this. It's just going in circles. Let the feat be accepted and the scaling can be tackled in another thread. Right now I would only scale Yujiro and Yuichiro due to how consistently above Yujiro is portrayed to be even to people he seemingly fought equally before.

-snip

Sorry for replying. Can you tell us whether we have enough votes? Want me to list them?

 

[NikHelton]

Okay, guys, 7-C Sikorsky suits me.
By the way, I remember that Retsu became 10 times stronger.
It turns out Retsu High 7-C. If we still have multipliers, then we can get 7-A

 

[Twellas]

The scaling chain has always been of great importance to me. I didn't understand how it happened that Doppo weakened a thousand times, only to return later, but at a lower level

The idea that Doppo got weaker is super cemented in the community but has quite literally 0 evidence to support it, it's just copium for people who can't accept the fact that ******* ZULU would no-diff Yujiro at the start of the series

 

[NikHelton]

Kaku Kaioh I feel should still scale. He is still a very important character and just below musashi on skill. Also Pickle, Baki, Musashi, Yuichiro. Noone else though because at least I feel noone was that strong. Damn the fight with Doppo fricked this up so bad.

Doppo raises his verse to the heavens

Well 3 cgm members have argued for this so sorry.

One member of the calculation group is against. Previously, this was enough to continue the discussion

You do understand this guy feels everyone should scale to this?

He-he, boi

This is more so a separate issue than the calc and is just Yujiro's standing in the verse. He is the god-god tier. Theoretically baki has reached his level since their fight. Practically he isn't a fart in the wind because as the guy said he is a moving goalpost. Like I wouldn't mind scaling Yujiro alone to this feat and his father due to implications that he was even stronger. That's because of what Yujiro is in the verse and even in the non-canon (probably) isekai Retsu will still say to the final bad guy nah you aren't shit to Yujiro.

The same problem exists in Kengan, where the most physically strong character performs a feat and is able to oneshot almost all the characters, however the verse scales up to him

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The idea that Doppo got weaker is super cemented in the community but has quite literally 0 evidence to support it, it's just copium for people who can't accept the fact that ***** ZULU would no-diff Yujiro at the start of the series

Zulu?

Also if everyone scales to that it would make no sense. Yujiro can scale because his limits are never really shown. Everyone else though has shown limits so I can't really scale them to this. Damn I don't want to ever talk about this feat.

 

[Passersby]

my brothers in christ, let me remind you that the 7C likely far higher yujiro hanma considered this punch

extremely dangerous and instinctively backed away from it with baki being shocked by it and commenting that no human ever can make a punch like that


i will simply leave it at this, do with this info what you want

 

[NikHelton]

my brothers in christ, let me remind you that the 7C likely far higher yujiro hanma considered this punch

extremely dangerous and instinctively backed away from it with baki being shocked by it and commenting that no human ever can make a punch like that


i will simply leave it at this, do with this info what you want

It was already in the thread of the downgrade)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

my brothers in christ, let me remind you that the 7C likely far higher yujiro hanma considered this punch

extremely dangerous and instinctively backed away from it with baki being shocked by it and commenting that no human ever can make a punch like that


i will simply leave it at this, do with this info what you want

That however does fall into the ap =/ aoe which is a big no-no. like that punch whose shockwave broke some boulders is multiversal.

So that can never be considered an argument.

A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

Attack Potency

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ByAsura]

I will choose to ignore it, considering how it contradicts even the 8-B scaling that y'all love so much.

Hell, it'd even 'contradict' anything above 9-A scaling.

Anyway, maybe we can discuss the character scaling later, since people are saying stuff that'd totally revise our current scaling chains (not values, just chains).

 

[Twellas]

Zulu?

Also if everyone scales to that it would make no sense. Yujiro can scale because his limits are never really shown. Everyone else though has shown limits so I can't really scale them to this. Damn I don't want to ever talk about this feat.

Zulu was severely superior to Baki (and only lost because he broke the rules). Baki would go on to beat Retsu, who's stronger than Katsumi, who's stronger than Doppo.

Sikoroski no-diffed Garland, who's comparable to Jack, who's arguably stronger than base Baki, who beat Retsu and bla bla bla.

This scaling works for 99% of the MT and post MT characters

 

[Twellas]

my brothers in christ, let me remind you that the 7C likely far higher yujiro hanma considered this punch

extremely dangerous and instinctively backed away from it with baki being shocked by it and commenting that no human ever can make a punch like that


i will simply leave it at this, do with this info what you want

this ain't it chief lol

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I will choose to ignore it, considering how it contradicts even the 8-B scaling that y'all love so much.

Hell, it'd even 'contradict' anything above 9-A scaling.

Also you know equating range of effect with power which would mean most verses would scale to city block level consistently. Like the Broly vs Goku fight or the one I posted or Golden frieza not erasing the Solar system as an accident.

So range of a feat is never related to it's power. This punch could be continent level for all we know(it isn't but you get my catch).

 

[Passersby]

That however does fall into the ap =/ aoe which is a big no-no. like that punch whose shockwave broke some boulders is multiversal.

if that punch was 7C it should went trough and evaporated the rocks it was touching, that what should have happened

instead, it makes a big crater on the wall...and that's it

that's all it does

I will choose to ignore it, considering how it contradicts even the 8-B scaling that y'all love so much.

kinda iffy on that one 2, explained why above

 

[Twellas]

for what it's worth, Musashi gets compared to both an exploding nuke and an actively erupting vulcano

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

that's all it does

In the video I posted how powerful was the punch?

I have told you and I will say it again. You have unrealistic standards towards fiction. Kaku could still make a dent in the wall and it wouldn't change stuff much.

 

[Passersby]

well, reading even more in the tournament, yujiro with vens bulging from his fist only managed to do this with his punch

but i guess we should also ignore this and totally not ignore the 7C rating because obviously these 2 are outliers and the 7C one isn't

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

if that punch was 7C it should went trough and evaporated the rocks it was touching, that what should have happened

instead, it makes a big crater on the wall...and that's it

that's all it does


kinda iffy on that one 2, explained why above

DC≠AP

End of argument

 

[Passersby]

In the video I posted how powerful was the punch?

I have told you and I will say it again. You have unrealistic standards towards fiction. Kaku could still make a dent in the wall and it wouldn't change stuff much.

dragon ball is an inconsistent pile of mess my friend, don't use it as an example

...but then again, so is baki, but not as extreme as dragon ball ig

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

for what it's worth, Musashi gets compared to both an exploding nuke and an actively erupting vulcano

His fighting it like a volcano right? Right??

 

[Passersby]

DC≠AP

End of argument

would any of you like to alborate on how a 7C punch wouldn't go trough a wall like hot a knife trough butter?

you know, with arguments and stuff

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

would any of you like to alborate on how a 7C punch wouldn't go trough a wall like hot a knife trough butter?

you know, with arguments and stuff

Because attack potency doesn't equal destructive capacity.

Pretty simple

 

[Passersby]

for what it's worth, Musashi gets compared to both an exploding nuke and an actively erupting vulcano

...and?


what does that prove really?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

...but then again, so is baki, but not as extreme as dragon ball ig

I mean Yujiro is literally the Beerus of the verse. Beerus was above Ssj god then above kaioken blue * 20 then below not full power Jiren then above ssj blue gogeta. Same is with Yujiro.

well, reading even more in the tournament, yujiro with vens bulging from his fist only managed to do this with his punch

but i guess we should also ignore this and totally not ignore the 7C rating because obviously these 2 are outliers and the 7C one isn't

It's not an outlier because dc defers from aoe. Outlier would be Yujiro getting shot by a sniper rifle and nearly dying which would destroy the verse.

 

[NikHelton]

I will choose to ignore it, considering how it contradicts even the 8-B scaling that y'all love so much.

Hell, it'd even 'contradict' anything above 9-A scaling.

Anyway, maybe we can discuss the character scaling later, since people are saying stuff that'd totally revise our current scaling chains (not values, just chains).

How about scaling to use the same earthquake Baki or Ogre feat from issekai and add "probably far higher, possibly 7-S" without scaling to this feat anyone but Yujiro

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

what does that prove really?

That while feats may show a reasonaly range affected they may also don't and that's totally fine. This has been a long standing rule to make sense of pretty much everything.

 

[ByAsura]

but i guess we should also ignore this and totally not ignore the 7C rating because obviously these 2 are outliers and the 7C one isn't

My guy, Retsu has more impressive feats than by the end of Grappler Baki, like literally pulverizing a crater of that size with a few hits.

You're talking about someone nearly on par with Demon Back Yujiro at one of his strongest points in the franchise. What you're saying doesn't make sense, and, again, we will ignore it.

 

[Passersby]

Because attack potency doesn't equal destructive capacity.

that's not an argument, that's an assumption, an assumption you already think is right

it doesn't matter how much you think that, the way the energy transfers trough the wall says everything you need to know

a 7C punch would go straight trough it, that punch didn't, simple as that

please elaborate and tell me where the kilotons of energy output of that 7C punch went, did they eat it?

 

[NikHelton]

for what it's worth, Musashi gets compared to both an exploding nuke and an actively erupting vulcano

**** not to get up, Baki is as strong as a million servings of ramen.
Hanayama was pure light. The power of the star is in his fists and 4-C.
Musashi was absolute darkness. A walking black hole with katanas. 4-B.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

I can't believe people are so against upgrading a verse that they're confusing DC with AP. This is basic scaling knowledge. Reminds me of the prime allmight multiplier thread that thankfully was accepted.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

that's not an argument, that's an assumption, an assumption you already think is right

it doesn't matter how much you think that, the way the energy transfers trough the wall sayes everything you need to know

a 7C punch would go straight trough it, that punch didn't, simple as that

please elaborate and tell me where the kilotons of energy output of that 7C punch went, did they eat it?

Passer please tell me. Why are you using an argument that the wiki literally lists not to use? It's there for a reason. THIS PUNCH COULD BE FREAKING GALAXY LEVEL AND BREAK A DAMN BRICK!

How about scaling to use the same earthquake Baki or Ogre feat from issekai and add "probably far higher, possibly 7-S" without scaling to this feat anyone but Yujiro

Seems like Isekai is non-canon for now and I wouldn't use Baki's feat while Yujiro has a better one. If the isekai stance is changed we can talk about this.

I can't believe people are so against upgrading a verse that they're confusing DC with AP. This is basic scaling knowledge. Reminds me of the prime allmight multiplier thread that thankfully was accepted.

I'm tired boss. At least the All might stuff went well. I mean dc and ap are not related. It's in the standards for a reason.

 

[ByAsura]

How about scaling to use the same earthquake Baki or Ogre feat from issekai and add "probably far higher, possibly 7-S" without scaling to this feat anyone but Yujiro

The Earthquake feat does scale to people that aren't Yujiro, so no.

Although I will say that the vast, vast, vast majority of the profiles we have don't scale, since Yujiro casually one-shot Hanayama in Bakidou.

 

[Passersby]

I can't believe people are so against upgrading a verse that they're confusing DC with AP. This is basic scaling knowledge. Reminds me of the prime allmight multiplier thread that thankfully was accepted.

no not really, i am perfectly sane, please address the points, where did the kilotons of energy output of that punch go to?

to the heavens?

Passer please tell me. Why are you using an argument that the wiki literally lists not to use? It's there for a reason. THIS PUNCH COULD BE FREAKING GALAXY LEVEL AND BREAK A DAMN BRICK!

oh hell no, if a mf is galaxy level but can't even break a brick that's either a huge outlier or an anti feat

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

that's not an argument, that's an assumption, an assumption you already think is right

it doesn't matter how much you think that, the way the energy transfers trough the wall says everything you need to know

a 7C punch would go straight trough it, that punch didn't, simple as that

please elaborate and tell me where the kilotons of energy output of that 7C punch went, did they eat it?

Hey, don't argue with me on that. Go argue with the entire concept of power scaling and make them change this long standing basic rule that AP and DC aren't equal. You know, because otherwise universal characters would destroy a universe every time they punch by your logic.

Let's be serious

 

[Passersby]

My guy, Retsu has more impressive feats than by the end of Grappler Baki, like literally pulverizing a crater of that size with a few hits.

You're talking about someone nearly on par with Demon Back Yujiro at one of his strongest points in the franchise. What you're saying doesn't make sense, and, again, we will ignore it.

why ignore this but not the earthquake punch bruh, especially when feats like this are way more common

matter of fact, feats like this are literally all what the verse has,iir

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not actively ignoring it, it just doesn't matter. You're not understanding that simply not destroying something isn't grounds for a downgrade.

By your logic, we should downgrade Baki and Yujiro to Street level just because they broke part of a car and made some craters in concrete during their fight.