Waking up from the Dream (2-B Mario Downgrades)

[JJSliderman]

Well, the actual depot is in the main verse but the worlds inside are something that you need to go through some kind of portal to get to, shown by Dream Team.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, the actual depot is in the main verse but the worlds inside are something that you need to go through some kind of portal to get to, shown by Dream Team.

Right, so we're right back at square one, where the black hole has no indication of having enough range to affect them.

 

[Starsprite53]

Yeah no we ain't going to wank the black hole

 

[omegabronic]

What I meant was the universe reset at the end of Galaxy in general, it affected all the space in the main Mario universe which includes Dream Depot.

Discussed already and it was decided that no one scales to that

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[greymerlion2]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[omegabronic]

Doesn't this have enough aprovals?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Doesn't this have enough aprovals?

It does, but we have to wait on DDM’s replies

 

[omegabronic]

It does, but we have to wait on DDM’s replies

Don't we have a rule for this type of stuff? Pretty sure that if a long time passes and the requested staff does not answer we can just apply this

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'd like to keep waiting out of common courtesy. Even I don't agree with DDM I at least respect him enough to not push shit through without giving him a chance to argue.

Anyways, bump.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Don't we have a rule for this type of stuff? Pretty sure that if a long time passes and the requested staff does not answer we can just apply this

It's more of a suggestion rather than a mandatory rule; some rules are more strict or stronger than others but that one is one of the lesser rules.

It is agreed that verse specific threads mention that if an opposition has made 0 activity period, like not even a generic "Still working on it." Then it's recommended to continue discussion without them, but doesn't always mean reply revisions right away Which technically means the 2 week deadline more or less resets each time the opposition also says "Still working on it". Though of course I will try not to let this topic run for too long. I believe later today or tomorrow is when I will make my post for this.

 

[omegabronic]

It's more of a suggestion rather than a mandatory rule; some rules are more strict or stronger than others but that one is one of the lesser rules.

It is agreed that verse specific threads mention that if an opposition has made 0 activity period, like not even a generic "Still working on it." Then it's recommended to continue discussion without them, but doesn't always mean reply revisions right away Which technically means the 2 week deadline more or less resets each time the opposition also says "Still working on it". Though of course I will try not to let this topic run for too long. I believe later today or tomorrow is when I will make my post for this.

huh, thanks for explaining

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

I was recently shown more evidence of other dreams not scaling to Future Dream's size; Just waiting on a few things to get verified before posting it.

 

[Mephistus]

Just to confirm before I post some counterarguments; we do now consider the book to be actually physically holding the Paper Mario universe within the main universe (universe as in series)..? And its not just a gateway? Kamek's line in english about the world hold in its pages is essentially identical except calling it parallel for japanese.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally what about that sequence proves that being the case.

In any case, maybe wait a bit more because I still want to post that additional evidence for the Future Dream stuff. Don't let me stop you, though.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Just to confirm before I post some counterarguments; we do now consider the book to be actually physically holding the Paper Mario universe (universe as in series)..? And its not just a gateway?

I’d consider the book as a gateway personally. It acts more like one with how it’s essentially a portal between the worlds. The second it opens it glows brightly and launches a bunch of shit out of it, and things can jump right back into it.

Doesn’t quite fit R>F qualifications if that’s what you’re aiming for.

 

[Mephistus]

Doesn’t quite fit R>F qualifications if that’s what you’re aiming for.

Nah.

 

[Hiryu-Z]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Crap, got overtasked and overlooked this thread. I will still work on it and should most definitely have it done by Sunday at latest hopefully.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Me and Fuji will try and post the extra details we found asap as well, that kinda slipped our minds as we worked on other versus stuff lol

 

[Eficiente]

The Void stuff is even missing out evidence of how false it is, I brought in the linked thread:

• "To reach the end of the book is to deliver crushing finality on the universe." (Bleck was) "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans. If Mario can amass the Pure Hearts and rescue his friends, maybe the universe stands a chance of surviving Count Bleck."
• Super Paper Mario The Official Guide From Nintendo Power: Page 5; "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber.", and page 126; "Even as a massive pixelated vortex begins to swallow the universe, who would believe that Mario will fail? I mean, come on."
• The English version, which is so attached to make the feat above Low 2-C, still has this; "Heroes... Trying to save these pathetic old worlds.", "Let's save all these worlds from destruction!" with "these" making not definite that this would target all realities in the multiverse, but all worlds travelled across the game ("these worlds"). Because we assumed that that "all worlds, all dimensions" thing meant all realities in the multiverse, it doesn't mean that on its own it can't possibly refer to all the worlds of a given setting, like how they are all connected in this game. And obviously the plot doesn't go any harder than that in terms on what the multiverse needing to be saved, it's a fantasy.

The og thread was abysmal to me personally, the arguments done were only good when related to giving new information I didn't know about, otherwise everything was childish by way of not following common sense, thinking things seemingly as if trying to get a result on one's favor rather than logically, and seemingly calling out errors on others based on whatever is the first feeling that comes to mind & is vaguely similar to a situation at hand. Because of this, I will call it out if I see the same happening again.

Also, Future Dream legit exists next to those other dreams and is portrayed as being parallel bubbles, which does mean criteria for the rest of the dreams being universes.

You are looking at that criteria on a vacuum. Realities shaped the same way from the outside being all the same size makes sense if 1 is universe-sized. This are dreams, what they are is what the dreamer dreams of, the highest extend of one has no reason nor is it likely to be the size of them all because it was exclusively made that big. Dreaming something that big could have easily made the dream bigger, not display a natural size it always already has. It would likewise make no sense for the other dreams to have further space beyond what was dreamed.

Also when are they potrayed as bubbles, can you show that? They may be pocket spaces.

Also, the plot of Dream Team does mention Luigi's Dream merging with Bowser's Dream so it would still be 2-C for the Dream Team scaling.

I have issues with this. Let's assume for a second that each dream is a universe, ok, that doesn't mean many dreams are multiverse, the space between them isn't that of a multiverse and so merging them isn't 2-C. That's like having 2 solar systems right next to each other, fuse them, and call that 4-A because "Well 4-A is about affecting a plural amount of solar systems", without earning the merits for it.

Similar things as before can be said about it, I hope I don't need to say the obvious logical problem with it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Void stuff is even missing out evidence of how false it is, I brought in the linked thread:

• "To reach the end of the book is to deliver crushing finality on the universe." (Bleck was) "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans. If Mario can amass the Pure Hearts and rescue his friends, maybe the universe stands a chance of surviving Count Bleck."
• Super Paper Mario The Official Guide From Nintendo Power: Page 5; "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber.", and page 126; "Even as a massive pixelated vortex begins to swallow the universe, who would believe that Mario will fail? I mean, come on."

Pretty sure we deliberately went out of the way to avoid using the official Prima Guide or Nintendo Power, as the former isn't allowed at all while the latter is very dubiously canon.

You are looking at that criteria on a vacuum. Realities shaped the same way from the outside being all the same size makes sense if 1 is universe-sized. This are dreams, what they are is what the dreamer dreams of, the highest extend of one has no reason nor is it likely to be the size of them all because it was exclusively made that big. Dreaming something that big could have easily made the dream bigger, not display a natural size it always already has. It would likewise make no sense for the other dreams to have further space beyond what was dreamed.

Also when are they potrayed as bubbles, can you show that? They may be pocket spaces.

Let's maybe not dwell on this for too long given Kirb and I had some translations done in regard to Future Dream that would make its size scaling to anything completely impossible.

I have issues with this. Let's assume for a second that each dream is a universe, ok, that doesn't mean many dreams are multiverse, the space between them isn't that of a multiverse and so merging them isn't 2-C. That's like having 2 solar systems right next to each other, fuse them, and call that 4-A because "Well 4-A is about affecting a plural amount of solar systems", without earning the merits for it.

Similar things as before can be said about it, I hope I don't need to say the obvious logical problem with it.

This is just straight up wrong lol, we have always considered merging two different space-times as 2-C. The only things that are really in contention here is if every dream is a universe, and what can reasonably scaled to multiple dreams.

Like I'm glad you seem to agree with the thread but I care a lot more about accurate indexing then just agreements/disagreements.

 

[Eficiente]

Pretty sure we deliberately went out of the way to avoid using the official Prima Guide or Nintendo Power, as the former isn't allowed at all while the latter is very dubiously canon.

What is the context of this? Can we keep it all in a blog for ref.?

This is just straight up wrong lol, we have always considered merging two different space-times as 2-C. The only things that are really in contention here is if every dream is a universe, and what can reasonably scaled to multiple dreams.

I have been in threads about it and we do require that space between universes to be like that of a real multiverse, regardless of how "we have always considered" things. There is a lot of lack of understanding of why we do certain things on the way they may be done, leading to many "types of feats" to be agreed on (when they may be wrong) just because they are similar to other feats that are in fact legit.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What is the context of this? Can we keep it all in a blog for ref.?

I'd have to track down the original context in my spare time, but IIRC that main issue was that the Mario Galaxy guide made up a lot of context that wrongly led to a universal feat. Since then, it's been sort of an unspoken rule to not use Prima Guides.

I have been in threads about it and we do require that space between universes to be like that of a real multiverse, regardless of how "we have always considered" things. There is a lot of lack of understanding of why we do certain things on the way they may be done, leading to many "types of feats" to be agreed on (when they may be wrong) just because they are similar to other feats that are in fact legit.

"2-C: Low Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[2] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents."

I think you're overcomplicating this a little. As long as two things are established as being legitimately different space-times, there isn't an issue. Also like, we literally see that dreams have some sort of space between them. That isn't, and shouldn't, be the main issue here.

 

[Eficiente]

I'd have to track down the original context in my spare time, but IIRC that main issue was that the Mario Galaxy guide made up a lot of context that wrongly led to a universal feat. Since then, it's been sort of an unspoken rule to not use Prima Guides.

I would like to evaluate that as I can't work with an unspoken rule, it could be that it just mistranslated things that could be alternatively translated in ways that don't contradict nearly as much (Like "universe" rather than "space", which share the same kanjis). Even then, because that guide got things wrong so should this guides? That doesn't sounds as objective as you make it sound.

"2-C: Low Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[2] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents."

I think you're overcomplicating this a little. As long as two things are established as being legitimately different space-times, there isn't an issue. Also like, we literally see that dreams have some sort of space between them. That isn't, and shouldn't, be the main issue here.

The note on the "significantly affect" part is something I proposed, gets misused a lot, and had to fix since years, for ref. But if you feel better not going over it then so be it.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I would like to evaluate that as I can't work with an unspoken rule, it could be that it just mistranslated things that could be alternatively translated in ways that don't contradict nearly as much (Like "universe" rather than "space", which share the same kanjis). Even then, because that guide got things wrong so should this guides? That doesn't sounds as objective as you make it sound.

No, it’s nothing with translations being wrong, they literally just had wrong info.

They stated Bowser’s goal in the game was to destroy the universe with the Grand Star in the center of the universe then recreate it in his image which…. Was not his plan at all. It’s factually incorrect, actually.

It also states:
-that he was unable to handle the power of a Grand Star, which is disproven by Galaxy 2
-States that some of the Galaxies are only planetary systems which drastically lowers their scope
-Makes context for several things/abilities that are never stated or implied in the game anywhere.

There’s also the fact that 90% of the time Prima Guides are written by tertiary sources with absolutely no connection to the original creators so they just have to write things based on their interpretation of the game they’re playing.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

There’s a specific note on either Bowser or the Grand Star’s profiles not to utilize the Prima Guide statements so there is some sort of official acknowledgement about their issues

 

[JJSliderman]

This is off topic but, I forget why Rosalina’s shields aren’t scaled to the black hole.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This is off topic but, I forget why Rosalina’s shields aren’t scaled to the black hole.

You mean the explosion from the black hole? Plenty of reasons.

1. The black hole itself isn’t arguably uni, it’s the explosion that occurs afterwards from the tandem of hundreds of Luma + the Grand Star causing the galaxy to collapse
2. We have no idea what actually happened in that scene. Rosalina using her shields to block it isn’t supported or mentioned anywhere in the game outside of some guidebooks based on assumptions of how the ending goes. The shields certainly weren’t working to stop the Observatory from being sucked into the black hole.
3. If this is counted as a big bang feat, and we assume Rosalina blocked a portion of it to protect Mario, Rosalina wouldn’t be scaled as uni for it. She isn’t restraining a full big bang ala Kyle Rayner from DC or absorbing one like Simon the Digger from TTGL, she’s just blocking a small portions. Since a big bang is just an explosion on a universal scale, the further away from the explosion you are and the less of the blast you block the lower the energy yield would be. Even being a few feet from the epicenter of the Big Bang would drastically reduce the energy output. Feats for tanking a portion of the Big Bang, unless you’re at the epicenter, are generally multi galaxy at best, and have been calced as low as moon level at the best. There’s not really any solid scaling to give to anyone from that feat at all.

 

[JJSliderman]

Fair enough, but then either the characters tanked it or Rosalina just transported them to an alternate dimension, latter of which isn’t inherently stated either.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Fair enough, but then either the characters tanked it or Rosalina just transported them to an alternate dimension, latter of which isn’t inherently stated either.

Yeah, but it wouldn’t really be calculable or even give anything notable stat wise that isn’t there. Really the feat is unusable, at the absolute best you could maybe argue it for Multi Galaxy+ evidence.

If anything it’s implied Bowser didn’t even survive it what with how everything is reset, meaning everyone was likely affected by it.

 

[Luckyfun]

Bump

 

[Luckyfun]

Is this the third time that a Mario thread hasn't concluded? Anyway bump

 

[Robo432343]

Is this the third time that a Mario thread hasn't concluded? Anyway bump

bro why would you bump this
mario wont be 2-b anymore

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I mean we’re just kinda waiting on DDM by this point. I think there’s enough agreement from everyone else to apply the changes. Me and Fuji have things to add but there’s no reason to mention it until DDM’s reply

 

[omegabronic]

I mean we’re just kinda waiting on DDM by this point. I think there’s enough agreement from everyone else to apply the changes. Me and Fuji have things to add but there’s no reason to mention it until DDM’s reply

Didn't we wait for more thab 2 weeks by now? I think that we can just apply this at this point

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have been busy, and the OP is pretty damn long hence why it's been taking so long. But yes, I am still working on it, and other users also mentioned their concerns and I was going to bring up some things the Universe page mentioned as some parts in the OP actually go against one of the things listed in the universe page.

 

[Mephistus]

Let him bake