Immortality Negation and Regeneration Negation pages

[Qawsedf234]

I'm fine with the page being added.

Same. I think it's a common enough ability that separating it isn't really clutter.

 

[Deagonx]

Probably better to add it then, rather than to have a big argument about it.

 

[Tllmbrg]

No???
Why would we avoid debating over adding the page when there's a decent amount of staff against it, admins included lol

 

[Deagonx]

Agree: 10 (Planck, Marvel Champion, Duedate, Promestein, LordTracer, Damage, Maverick, CelestialPegasus, Deagonx, Glassman)

Disagree: 7 (Tllmbrg, Flashlight, DontTalk, Lephyr, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, Medeus)

Neutral: 1 (KLOL)

Well, this is the current tally.

Why would we avoid debating over adding the page when there's a decent amount of staff against it, admins included lol

Because it's not important enough to drag out, and currently has more agrees than disagrees.

I agree in general that we should avoid redundant pages, but that being said, this is hardly the most egregious example and if the basic principle of reducing unneeded pages is the matter, we would probably be better served to just do a survey of our current abilities pages and cull the worst ones.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A 7-10 split isn't particularly decisive, and I disagree that this isn't important enough to come to a consensus. This is a page that will be spammed around constantly, requiring plentiful minute changes to pages to properly identify and fix.

 

[Deagonx]

A 7-10 split isn't particularly decisive

I agree that it isn't particularly decisive, but my feeling is that the factors that determine whether it should be added are fairly simple, and so I don't anticipate that an argument about it is going to be very effective in changing votes, even assuming that the 20~ staff members who voted keep following the thread and paying attention to the argument.

I think perhaps a broader discussion about collapsing/expanding our list of powers and abilities might be more productive? Out of curiosity I looked at our list of P&A and there are a few that seem entirely pointless (such as Genius Intelligence, Peak Human Physical Characteristics, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, which all seem redundant to stats already in the profile), or would be better suited under an umbrella ability (like Air Manip, Fire Manip, Water Manip, Ice Manip, Earth Manip, all of which could arguably be collapsed to a single "Elemental Manipulation") and others that just seem nonsensical, like "Broadway Force".

Whether or not negating immortality warrants branching from the more generic "Power Nullification" seems like a symptom of a larger matter about how we organize our ability pages, and I was thinking maybe a larger re-assessment is in order rather than battling it out over this specific page

 

[Tllmbrg]

I would gladly just have a larger thread about reducing the power pages in general, since the division also leads to downright bizarre standards. Such as us treating Fear as some superior emotion to others, to the point that manipulating it is worth a page of its own (And mind you, Empathic Manipulation is a sub power of Mind Manipulation, so we have a sub-sub category power)

Though if we do that wouldn't it be better to hold off this page's creation until the larger issue is resolved?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think perhaps a broader discussion about collapsing/expanding our list of powers and abilities might be more productive?

I agree, aye.

Out of curiosity I looked at our list of P&A and there are a few that seem entirely pointless (such as Genius Intelligence, Peak Human Physical Characteristics, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, which all seem redundant to stats already in the profile), or would be better suited under an umbrella ability (like Air Manip, Fire Manip, Water Manip, Ice Manip, Earth Manip, all of which could arguably be collapsed to a single "Elemental Manipulation") and others that just seem nonsensical, like "Broadway Force".

Iffy on these. I think individual aspects of elemental manipulation warrant their own pages, and broadway force is... something. Personally I'd classify it as closer to Body Puppetry with extra pizzazz chucked into the mix. Superhuman and Peak Human are both fine albeit admittedly redundant, I didn't even know we had a Genius Intellect page, that's detritus for sure.

Whether or not negating immortality warrants branching from the more generic "Power Nullification" seems like a symptom of a larger matter about how we organize our ability pages, and I was thinking maybe a larger re-assessment is in order rather than battling it out over this specific page

Aye, this is the grounds on which a number of us disagree.

 

[Deagonx]

Though if we do that wouldn't it be better to hold off this page's creation until the larger issue is resolved?

Well the Immortality Negation page has been created and is currently listed in the P&A page, so that cat is officially out of the bag. Not to say that we can't put it back in, but I think that should probably be done as part of the aforementioned discussion.

Iffy on these. I think individual aspects of elemental manipulation warrant their own pages, and broadway force is... something. Personally I'd classify it as closer to Body Puppetry with extra pizzazz chucked into the mix. Superhuman and Peak Human are both fine albeit admittedly redundant, I didn't even know we had a Genius Intellect page, that's detritus for sure.

Well, I'll state the obvious just so we are clear on our givens/premise. When an ability is not considered diverse enough to split into multiple ability pages, we usually elaborate on the specific iteration of that ability within the profile itself. To me, it seems like the elements is a great example of where redundancy can be reduced. For instance, Aang qualifies for Water Manip, Ice Manip, Air Manip, Fire Manip, Earth Manip, Magma Manip, Crystal Manip, Electricity Manip, Sand Manip. We could remove 6+ abilities and just explain in the Elemental Manip text that he can control Earth, Water, Fire, Air and through extension, Sand, Magma, and Electricity.

Some of these, like Electricity Manip, are not easily or intuitively grouped with "the elements" but I am not sure on what the criteria is for a dedicated page. I think that's the crux of the disagreement, we are just going by what feels significant enough to delineate by itself. The elements, at the very least, constitute a fairly short list of things, but "Power Nullification" is much much more broad, which makes it hard to determine when a specific nullification needs a separate page without an agreed upon set of criteria.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, I can see Regeneration negation being a fairly common ability since there are plenty of characters with the ability to permanently kill those with Low-Godly and/or Mid-Godly regeneration despite lacking any sort of abilities that could be classified as EE and all they did was use swords strikes and/or their bare hands to kill them. But overall, those are still just sub abilities of power nullification. I actually could see sub sections rather than entire pages for them.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I mainly am gunning to remove pages like Time Stop, Empathic Manipulation, Fear manipulation, Madness manipulation, and Petrifaction as is. Elemental Manipulation is more iffy on what would and would not fall outside, but the latter examples are literally just a specific application of an existing power so

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

that’s what I’ve stated in the page, if they can indeed come back from all types of High-Godly then there’s little to no reason why having their entire reality erased alongside it would affect them when they already came back from that type of erasure.

fair I'll concede to this then. although like i said it is fairly uncommon for one to possess all and destruction of a reality sometimes can mean something more than like entire timeline and such

 

[Rabbit2002]

I mainly am gunning to remove pages like Time Stop, Empathic Manipulation, Fear manipulation, Madness manipulation, and Petrifaction as is. Elemental Manipulation is more iffy on what would and would not fall outside, but the latter examples are literally just a specific application of an existing power so

I disagree with remove Empathic, since I don't see it is a sub power of any power currently

 

[Tllmbrg]

Mind Manipulation

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Mind Manipulation

Wouldn't morality manip also fall under that

 

[Rabbit2002]

Mind Manipulation

I forgot about that, then I think illusion creation, power absoprtion, rage power, resistance negatation, durability negation should be remove

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I forgot about that, then I think illusion creation, power absoprtion, rage power, resistance negatation, durability negation should be remove

Actually durability negation is pretty significant.
We can't just put all negations and nullifications under one roof.

 

[Deagonx]

We can't just put all negations and nullifications under one roof.

Honestly, I don't see why not. I think it seems more intuitive to for a character who has, say "Immortality Negation" to just link to the Immortality page, as the basic concept of negating or nullifying something is intuitive enough that we don't need it to be an ability unto itself.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx you forgot Qawsed’s vote, that makes it 11-7. Also no not really, Durability Negation isn’t something you put with Power Nullification when stuff like pressure points, inflicting poison or cutting at an atomic level counts as durability negation. That literally has nothing to do with power null, it’s just a hax move that can instant kill.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Honestly, I don't see why not. I think it seems more intuitive to for a character who has, say "Immortality Negation" to just link to the Immortality page, as the basic concept of negating or nullifying something is intuitive enough that we don't need it to be an ability unto itself.

Okay, but power null and allat jazz isn't the same as dura neg, dunno why he suggested that since durability isn't even a hax or anything, just a standard stat.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx you forgot Qawsed’s vote, that makes it 11-7.

My bad.

Agree: 11 (Planck, Marvel Champion, Duedate, Promestein, LordTracer, Damage, Maverick, CelestialPegasus, Deagonx, Glassman, Qawsedf)

Disagree: 7 (Tllmbrg, Flashlight, DontTalk, Lephyr, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, Medeus)

Neutral: 1 (KLOL)

With that said, should I move this thread to Staff Discussion?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Wouldn't you be better labelled as neutral since you more so don't mind it being added rather than actually support it

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx The thread’s not too controversial and the normal users aren’t really misbehaving so I don’t think that’s necessary.

@Tllmbrg by that logic wouldn’t Griffin be neutral as well since he even said he wouldn’t really mind if the page stays?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

With that said, should I move this thread to Staff Discussion?

Given Glassman's vehemence on the subject, it may be best to finish this thread and tackle the greater issue in a staff-only thread, to avoid needless arguing.

 

[Deagonx]

Given Glassman's vehemence on the subject, it may be best to finish this thread and tackle the greater issue in a staff-only thread, to avoid needless arguing.

Okay. At the moment the yeas have it, even if it is split. The immortality negation page has been created and added, and it's listed on the P&A page. I think it is probably best to let sleeping dogs lie, in that regard, and perhaps the issue can be revisited in conjunction with a larger decision that is made about how we organize and delineate abilities. Is that satisfactory?

 

[Theglassman12]

So is that all to this thread? I assume the whole subset abilities stuff is gonna be discussed in another thread?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Additionally, Regeneration has little to no connection towards the reality the character exists in as the regen in question is revolving around the target individual, not all of existence, so being able to destroy a Higher-Dimensional Plane to attack the character won't put them down as High-Godly by default already lets them come back from literal nothingness.

I'm not sure why that is listed on this page and I disagree with it in general.
A high-godly regen character still has to regenerate somewhere. If there is no place left to regenerate because their entire plane of existence got erased, and the character doesn't have feats of regenerating somewhere else, then they can't regenerate anywhere. Unless of course they can recreate their plane of existence before regenerating but that, again, is a separate thing that requires feats.
To that comes that concepts, history and the like are frequently also limited to that plane of existence, so if the plane of existence is nowhere, so are those things.

In fact, the NEP page basically has a note stating the opposite, just regarding nothingness instead of regenerating from nothing, so this appears inconsistent with existing standards.

 

[Theglassman12]

How does that differ from something like an entire timeline being erased and you coming back from the timeline being erased? You’re still coming back from literal nothingness, why would the reality being there or not be relevant to the individual’s regen?

 

[ImmortalDread]

If we don't accept this just because it is an extra step of power nullification, then why don't we remove all other sub-power like Time Stop, Energy Projection, Petrification, etc?

2 wrong don't make it right.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not really the point there, Dread. It's my belief that Rabbit makes a solid point. I've been in favor of slimming down our P&A categories for awhile now given many are redundant (including this one), so I'm happy to use this as a vehicle to facilitate a conversation on that.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Not really the point there, Dread. It's my belief that Rabbit makes a solid point. I've been in favor of slimming down our P&A categories for awhile now given many are redundant (including this one), so I'm happy to use this as a vehicle to facilitate a conversation on that.

It's.. whataboutism argument of "why if others have done it", which I am responding to it.

Obviously, I agree with him as well, but it's irrelevant here.

 

[Tllmbrg]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/should-we-reduce-how-many-power-pages-we-have.153262/

I just made a dedicated thread for the matter

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not reading all replies, but I think another page would be unnecessary.
Negating immortalities and regeneration isn't different from negating every other power and ability honestly, and we have the Power Nullification page for this reason.

 

[Theglassman12]

@SamanPatou can you name me numerous characters who only has normal power null which allows him to permanently kill an immortal being? Because normal power null is always tied to nullifying one’s abilities, while Immortality negation is you killing someone that normally cannot die.

 

[ImmortalDread]

One argument that may support your ideology glass, if you don't define acknowledge immortality as an ability (like me, as a nature) but in wiki, it is defined to be ability.

Otherwise it's really power null

 

[Ikelaggan]

@SamanPatou can you name me numerous characters who only has normal power null which allows him to permanently kill an immortal being? Because normal power null is always tied to nullifying one’s abilities, while Immortality negation is you killing someone that normally cannot die.

I'm do you one better and drop a whole verse and anyone that can infict Dispell can negate status buffs and positive effects like auto-revive.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ImmortalDread Immortality is hardly an ability. Literally any and all forms of immortality is just part of its nature.

@Ikelaggan so they nullify a status effect that lets someone resurrect. But it’s not something natural they have that makes them resurrect, then that sounds like a more limited form of negating resurrection that’s caused via a spell.

either way I’m closing this thread since no other staff is commenting here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think you ought to have waited for Saman to reply, though, even if it wasn't entirely clear what your point was.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, administrators and thread moderators can technically still respond to closed threads as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

@Bobsican asked me to unlock this thread, as he and @DontTalkDT still seem to have some concerns.