Should we reduce how many Power pages we have?

[Tllmbrg]

It says it in the title really.
This topic has been brought up in the latest power addition thread for our site so it's better we have a dedicated place to discuss it.

I will note that there are two types of powers here we are discussing:
1) Powers covered by other sections of the page (Superhuman Physicals and Genius Intelligence, Peak Human Physicals etc)
2) Sub types of existing powers (Petrifaction, Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation etc)

So yah, what should be removed, what should stay and so on

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Antvasima @Mr._Bambu @Deagonx @Starter_Pack @LordGriffin1000 @AKM sama @Qawsedf234 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Wokistan

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Damage3245 @SamanPatou @KLOL506 @DemiiPowa

 

[Damage3245]

If we're going to nominate any Power pages to be deleted, I'd start with something like Breath Attack and BFR.

 

[Armorchompy]

We have Earth Manipulation, Sand Manipulation and Crystal Manipulation. I don't think they're doing harm or anything by existing, but if the plan is to snip a few out, the latter two should probably be considered.

 

[DemiiPowa]

If we're going to nominate any Power pages to be deleted, I'd start with something like Breath Attack and BFR.

I disagree with removing BFR, however I agree with removing Breath Attack. Most of the time if a character has a breath attack, it's usually elemental (fire, ice etc.) and even when it isn't I'm not sure it's significant enough of an ability to warrant it's own page. BFR shouldn't be removed in my opinion since it's an ability significant enough that it can instantly net a win in matchups based on SBA (The ability itself is also very widespread and there's nothing else it can really be classified as.)

We have Earth Manipulation, Sand Manipulation and Crystal Manipulation. I don't think they're doing harm or anything by existing, but if the plan is to snip a few out, the latter two should probably be considered.

Sand Manipulation and Crystal Manipulation should be sub abilities of Earth Manipulation.

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree with removing BFR, however I agree with removing Breath Attack. Most of the time if a character has a breath attack, it's usually elemental (fire, ice etc.) and even when it isn't I'm not sure it's significant enough of an ability to warrant it's own page. BFR shouldn't be removed in my opinion since it's an ability significant enough that it can instantly net a win in matchups based on SBA (The ability itself is also very widespread and there's nothing else it can really be classified as.)

It seems to me that BFR is just a redundant ability like Breath Attack.

Throw a character out into space? Superhuman Physical Characteristics.

Teleport a character away? Teleportation. Portal Creation. Etc.

Specifics like a character's range or feats can be elaborated on in their page.

 

[DemiiPowa]

It says it in the title really.
This topic has been brought up in the latest power addition thread for our site so it's better we have a dedicated place to discuss it.

I will note that there are two types of powers here we are discussing:
1) Powers covered by other sections of the page (Superhuman Physicals and Genius Intelligence, Peak Human Physicals etc)
2) Sub types of existing powers (Petrifaction, Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation etc)

So yah, what should be removed, what should stay and so on

There's a lot of overlapping of already existing abilities that really don't need their own pages can be replaced with unique abilities, instead of having several versions on 1 ability that isn't significant enough of an ability on its own. A few I personally would target for removal (or just making them sub-types of already existing abilities) are:
• Peak Human Physical Characteristics
• Time Stop (This, like time acceleration, deceleration, etcetera, are all sub components of Time Manipulation)
• Breaking the Fourth Wall (This ability isn't applicable to matchups or just isn't very important to document I believe)
• Breath Attack
• Crystal Manipulation & Sand Manipulation (Both of these should be sub-powers of Earth Manipulation)
• Energy Projection (This just seems like Energy Manipulation used as attacks, which can still just be documented as "Energy Manipulation (Can fire energy beams, Use Energy based attacks etc.)")

 

[DemiiPowa]

It seems to me that BFR is just a redundant ability like Breath Attack.

Throw a character out into space? Superhuman Physical Characteristics.

Teleport a character away? Teleportation. Portal Creation. Etc.

Specifics like a character's range or feats can be elaborated on in their page.

If you put it that way, then yes I think that can also work.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think BFR is fine, it's really more of a standard tactics thing but it is at least something that's often done in verses and probably something people should look out for in vs matches.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Petrifaction and Empathic Manipulation/Fear Manipulation should also get the axe by the same token

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think a more pertinent solution would be to instead limit the amount of abilities that should be on pages.

For example: the BFR page explains a vital term we use in VS debating, however, listing it on a page would be redundant as it is not an ability, rather a victory condition.

In the instance of elemental manipulation, we can legitimately delete it, since the subcategories can work independent of the main category.

Case by case is the phrase of the day.

 

[Andytrenom]

Things like superhuman physical characteristics being covered by tier just feels like a non issue to me. It also just feels weird to not acknowledge one of the most iconic examples of a superpower

Crystal manipulation seems fair to draw a distinction from earth manipulation

Subtypes add clarity to a character's capabilities so I don't think they should all be removed, like listing fear manipulation instead of empathetic manipulation is only going to be beneficial in most cases.

Maybe if something is more a way of applying a specific power than one of many powers falling under a similar category then that could go? I don't know if there are examples of that though

 

[Tllmbrg]

Subtypes add clarity to a character's capabilities so I don't think they should all be removed, like listing fear manipulation instead of empathetic manipulation is only going to be beneficial in most cases.

Fear Manipulation absolutely should be deleted because it just sets a bad presdence by existing. Why are we treating fear as some superior emotion to other stuff, or alternatively why isn't there stuff like Lust/Love Manipulation?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Clarity is easily the weakest defence because if you just explain the major ability you do not need the sub category at all, since in Empathic Manipulation you'd explain how it's only fear or something like thaf

 

[Deagonx]

I'll reply later today with my candidates for changes

 

[Andytrenom]

Fear Manipulation absolutely should be deleted because it just sets a bad presdence by existing. Why are we treating fear as some superior emotion to other stuff, or alternatively why isn't there stuff like Lust/Love Manipulation?

No one thinks that, fear based powers are just especially prevalent in fiction.

There is also no more benefit to listing it as empathic manipulation and clarifying it as fear than simply listing fear manipulation. Making a change now feels unnecessary when there is no actual harm that is being done

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Clarity is easily the weakest defence because if you just explain the major ability you do not need the sub category at all, since in Empathic Manipulation you'd explain how it's only fear or something like thaf

Yeah but how many users of Empathic Manipulation use it to make people happy instead of making people afraid?

 

[Deagonx]

And in general is notability the criteria we are using to delineate a sub-ability as a separate page?

 

[Andytrenom]

Abilities like empathic manipulation in general covers a bunch of distinct abilities and lumps then together because of a similarly (all being emotions), it's not all the same ability with different applications

For something like that I don't think there's anything wrong with having a page for a more specific ability too

 

[Deagonx]

Abilities like empathic manipulation in general covers a bunch of distinct abilities and lumps then together because of a similarly (all being emotions), it's not all the same ability with different applications

Right, but that's most ability pages.

 

[Andytrenom]

Right, but that's most ability pages.

Like what? For empathic manipulation, it's less a specific superpower and more a classification certain different kinds of superpowers can fall into for sharing a commonality

 

[Andytrenom]

Actually no I take that back, it can be the overall manipulation of emotions, but that's very different from only being able to control fear

 

[Deagonx]

Actually no I take that back, it can be the overall manipulation of emotions, but that's very different from only being able to control fear

Is fear not an emotion?

 

[Andytrenom]

I mean every emotion. Being able to have full control of emotions is different than only manipulating fear

 

[Andytrenom]

I will explain it like this, something you control may belong to a overall set of objects, but that doesn't mean the user will have power over the entire set or the set will always have to be brought up when talking about that power

Something like fear manipulation is prevalent enough to count as its own thing without having anything to do with other emotions

 

[Deagonx]

To me that would imply that anyone who can only control a specific emotion couldn't be given Empathetic Manipulation and would need a new page for that specific emotion.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think we can use empathic manipulation to save the clutter and only create pages for specific emotions that are more prevalent

 

[Deagonx]

Personally I disagree, I think it is a bit messy to have individual pages for some emotions but not others. I think "less is more" in that regard and that we would be best served by collapsing pages like that into category pages where possible, such as Earth, Wind, Fire, Air, Sand, Crystal, Magma, and Ice Manip all having their own pages, should probably just be under the existing "Elemental Manipulation" page.

 

[Deagonx]

Additionally, I think we should remove pages that are redundant to the stats listed on profiles.

Superhuman Physical Characteristics

The levels of strength, speed or stamina that significantly exceed those of a regular person. Examples include ability to move faster than the eye can see (the human limit is about 10 m/s at short distances), or even at supersonic speed, without any expense to self and without any gimmicks...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Peak Human Physical Characteristics

Peak Human Physical Characteristics refers to a character with bodily functions at the maximum limit of human condition. It means that the character is way stronger, has more endurance, and is faster than even other extremely athletic people could possibly achieve. They are the highest level a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Genius Intelligence

A genius is an individual with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence. Geniuses can appear in a variety of forms and with a variety of specialties, and their exceptional intelligence is not necessarily universal, potentially only applying to certain subjects and fields that they...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nigh-Omniscience

The power to know almost everything in existence. Lesser version of Omniscience. The user knows almost everything in existence while being blocked from certain details or being limited in other ways, possibly only being able to see one timeline or universe, or have just small patches of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DemiiPowa]

Additionally, I think we should remove pages that are redundant to the stats listed on profiles.

Superhuman Physical Characteristics

The levels of strength, speed or stamina that significantly exceed those of a regular person. Examples include ability to move faster than the eye can see (the human limit is about 10 m/s at short distances), or even at supersonic speed, without any expense to self and without any gimmicks...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Peak Human Physical Characteristics

Peak Human Physical Characteristics refers to a character with bodily functions at the maximum limit of human condition. It means that the character is way stronger, has more endurance, and is faster than even other extremely athletic people could possibly achieve. They are the highest level a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Genius Intelligence

A genius is an individual with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence. Geniuses can appear in a variety of forms and with a variety of specialties, and their exceptional intelligence is not necessarily universal, potentially only applying to certain subjects and fields that they...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nigh-Omniscience

The power to know almost everything in existence. Lesser version of Omniscience. The user knows almost everything in existence while being blocked from certain details or being limited in other ways, possibly only being able to see one timeline or universe, or have just small patches of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I disagree with Superhuman Physical Characteristics, as it is a good way to differentiate for 9-C and below characters.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree with Superhuman Physical Characteristics, as it is a good way to differentiate for 9-C and below characters.

Don't we already do that with tiers and stats?

 

[DemiiPowa]

Don't we already do that with tiers and stats?

All of our stats don't cover things that are covered by SPC afaik

 

[Armorchompy]

There was a thread to delete SPC a while ago and it was rejected

 

[Tllmbrg]

I would support altering the purpose of SPC to cover Superhuman abilities not necessarily covered by stats such as superhum flexibility or suoer jumping

As for Empathic Manipulation, it's a subset ability of Mind Manipulation so ideally it gets deleted too

 

[Antvasima]

I think that almost all of our well-established current powers pages seem valid to keep, and that the few that might not be valid would require much more work to remove all of the links to them than what would be gained from removing them.

I do not think that we should add redundant pages from this point though. We already seem to have covered most useful angles.

 

[Deagonx]

I wonder if perhaps we could restructure it so that we can list things like "Fear Manipulation" on a character profile, but have it link to the umbrella ability of Empathetic Manipulation, and have the most prominent sub-varieties listed in the main Empathetic Manipulation page, with the specific links on the profiles directing you to the specific section of that ability? Like with the # character added so that you get hyperlinked to a specific section.

That way we could make these changes with much lower effort, as we could use bots to change the links fairly easily, and still describe the ability in the profiles as such.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Making stuff a redirect is an easy way for us to remove power pages yes
Nearly no editing required too as well

 

[Deagonx]

Making stuff a redirect is an easy way for us to remove power pages yes
Nearly no editing required too as well

What do you think of the solution overall? Like leaving "Fear Manipulation" on profiles and just having it direct you to the "Fear Manip" sub-section of Empathetic Manip

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree with the premise of slimming our pages down to remove redundancies (including the Immortality/Regen Negation pages made just before this thread, as they are a single application of broad-spanning Power Nullification).

Elemental types should not be compressed down- in fact, I'd generally rather get rid of Elemental Manipulation for being too vague. I agree with removing subtypes of Mind Manipulation perhaps with the exception of Madness since it has an actual mechanical use (that is, differentiating the methodology- cognition based madness hax is rather common).

Ant may have a point with our more well-established pages, as deleting them may lead to unnecessary confusion- I doubt everyone who makes pages will recognize this thread's existence, so there's good odds we may be dealing with scraping new "Empathic Manipulation" users months or years down the line. Less established pages, however, could be dealt with, I feel, and maybe a notice regarding stringent circumstances being needed to create a new page- we do it far too willy-nilly as is.