Immortality Negation and Regeneration Negation pages

[Theglassman12]

Honestly don’t know whether staff discussion or CRT would be fitting for this but I’ll just go with my gut instinct.

For a while we’ve had both Immortality Negation and Regeneration Negation as noteworthy abilities on a lot of pages despite not having a proper page for either of them. I figured why not have them be both their own pages finally instead of having to deal with the headache of the coding. Plus we’ve already got categories for both Immortality and Regeneration negation so why not. Here’s my sandbox that explains both abilities in depth with examples and what qualifies, etc. any feedback would be appreciated.

Agree: 24 (Tony, Reaper, Fujiwara, Planck, Shake, Deceived, Strangeverse, Tarang, Marvel Champion, Excel, Milly, Dust, Duedate, Vietthai, Artor, Narurias, Gin, Delta, Sheev, Promestein, LordTracer, Damage, Qawsed, Rabbit)

Disagree: 6 (Tllmbrg, Dread, Flashlight, DontTalk, Lephyr, Monke [fuse with power null instead of new page])

Neutral: 1 (KLOL)

 

[Tllmbrg]

It's just power null that we treat as something on its own
No need for new pages, just expend the current power null page

 

[Theglassman12]

So is Resistance Negation but its unique property is enough to warrant a new page. I don’t really see why Immortality Negation and Regen negation can’t qualify for their own pages when it’s unique

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This looks good and the page should be there since it's a very common ability

 

[KLOL506]

Neutral on their addition.

 

[RedReaper]

I wholeheartedly agree with the addition. The ability is consistently utilized in many characters despite not having a page, and the entire high-godly debacle would’ve easily solved had we simply had a regen negation page detailing the mechanics of said ability negation. This is especially true for characters with esoteric regenerative capacity, like Sephiroth regenerating from mere memories, or Kratos being immortal as long as the concept of Hope itself exists. For most characters trying to get around these levels of Regeneration/Immortality, simply slapping “Immortality/Regeneration” “Negation“ doesn’t actually tell one how effective their negation is on the Immortality or Regen in question.

That said, I do think the Regeneration Neg page would be fleshed out more. For example, I believe that there’s a rule in place stating things like Mid and High Godly Neg is only effective on specific aspects it’s countering regen from. (So High-Godly Negation that affects the Soul, Mind, Luck, Body, etc.) wouldn’t counter Mid-Godly Regen from another’s Memory because it specifically doesn’t counter that means of return. This makes sense mechanically, but as the pages are meant to be as casual friendly as possible, I think that should be noted.

 

[Tllmbrg]

So is Resistance Negation but its unique property is enough to warrant a new page. I don’t really see why Immortality Negation and Regen negation can’t qualify for their own pages when it’s unique

I would fuse it to our current power null page yes
In general a lot of our power pages have a bad case of redundancy, so I would rather not increase it

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tllmbrg you do realize way too many fictional characters have those very specific abilities that you claim is redundant right? Just saying to mix it with power nullification isn’t really enough when power nullification is a more general term that’s in relation to your own ability. Immortality and regeneration being negated wouldn’t fall under power null in the same way as how Empathic and Fear hax is too specific that a lot of characters use to be mixed with mind manipulation.

@RedReaper i wouldn’t mind it being more fleshed out. I can add a note on how specific high godly regens being negated won’t apply to the rest of high godly, though mid-godly seems a bit too simple in comparison to high-godly but like I said, I’m down with any suggestions.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I agree. Regeneration and immortality negation is almost always treated as something distinct from conventional power null. It feels weird saying someone like Doomguy has power nullification just because he can kill guys permanently, but has no other form of it. can't believe glass' blazblue and castlevania bias made it into the sandbox though smh

 

[Planck69]

I agree with the addition of the pages.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Yeah letting the Power Null page try and cover it is dumb, these are distinct enough abilities that I agree with pages for them.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I put Yukari into one of the examples for Dimensional Manipulation so don’t give me that attitude

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I put Yukari into one of the examples for Dimensional Manipulation so don’t give me that attitude

tbh i didnt even realize that until now, incredibly based as usual

 

[Deceived3596]

Agree, I've always believed that stuff like Regeneration Negation and Immortality Negation should be their own separate abilities rather than just relegating them to the Power Nullification page.

Also since Regeneration Negation has six provided examples while Immortality Negation only has 5, Ichibe could be use to fill up that missing spot, his explanation is good, everything is sourced and referenced as well.

 

[AStrangeverse]

agree

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deceived3596 added onto the sandbox.

 

[Theglassman12]

I've added an additional note on the Regen Negation page in regards to High-Godly regeneration, any input there is appreciated.

 

[Tarang123]

Seems pretty straightforward. I agree

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm fine with the additional note with the exception of this part here.

"Furthermore, being able to negate one specific type of High-Godly Regen does not mean you can negate the other High-Godly regen unless the evidence is provided that the user can negate the other types as well"

My personal issue with this would be how it's sorta equalizing the forms of High-Godly Regeneration somewhat, which i don't agree with, there's (generally) a pretty clear standard of what's considered to be more "abstract" or "fundamental" to one's existence, with information being considered the weakest while plot being considered the strongest. I don't agree with the assumption that if someone has say, Type 1 Conceptual High-Godly Negation, we should assume he's incapable of negating, say, Type 2 Informational High-Godly, despite the fact he's capable of negating the regeneration of someone that's innately more fundamental compared to the previous. That just doesn't make logical sense to me personally.

Now this is just generally, when examined in context of different verses, this could change, like if a verse that considers information to be the pinnacle of abstraction, even more so than Type 2 or 1 Concepts, than erasure on that level would be considered more fundamental compared to Type 2 or 1 Conceptual Erasure.

So maybe we should mention the fact that generally, there's a hierarchy of regeneration and negation towards it, that inherently allows higher forms of regeneration negation to affect lower forms of regeneration, while the opposite is impossible, kinda like we do with Conceptual Manipulation, but also mention the fact that it's ultimately contextual based and should be examined on a case by case basis.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deceived3596 the problem is we don’t exactly have a hierarchy in terms of which types of high-godly are considered better than the other. I’m pretty sure even DontTalk mentioned it’s a case by case basis on how the verse works since not every series is universal with having concept be better than history erasure or informational erasure, hence the fact that we need the evidence that those types of regen are proven to be there, let alone negating those types of regen.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Just a thing but we don't have any hierarchy regarding fundamental shit like plot or concept or info, at least not officially (even if some believe otherwise).

Hierarchies between these concepts can only exist if the verse has them but otherwise it's regarded as in the same level.

So the note is perfectly fine as it is

 

[Deceived3596]

@Deceived3596 the problem is we don’t exactly have a hierarchy in terms of which types of high-godly are considered better than the other. I’m pretty sure even DontTalk mentioned it’s a case by case basis on how the verse works since not every series is universal with having concept be better than history erasure or informational erasure, hence the fact that we need the evidence that those types of regen are proven to be there, let alone negating those types of regen.

We don't have a concrete hierarchy, sure, but there's absolutely a generalized framework which we use to categorizes the "fundamentality" of these properties, like Type 1 Concepts are, generally, more abstract comparative to Type 2 Information since Type 1 Concepts don't require the continued idealization from the sphere of the influence they govern, they are independent from it, while Type 2 Information, generally, requires the continued existence of the structure they constructed, they aren't independent from it.

Yeah, that's why i'm saying we should mention the fact that it's a case by case basis, but we should also mention there's a generalized framework of levels of abstraction, such as the one explained above.

It just doesn't sit right with me that we are saying that say, High-Godly Plot Erasure wouldn't negate bog-standard Type 2 Information High-Godly without further evidence, when we are completely capable of explaining why Plot Erasure would be innately more fundamental comparative to just bog standard Type 2 Information on a generalized level.

But this is more so an issue on how we don't actually provide "levels" in our regeneration page, which should definitely be change, not on the blog itself, so i guess i'm "fine" with the current note, even through i fundamentally disagree. In the near future i'll cook something up that'll hopefully rectify this issue.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with the additions

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deceived3596 I feel like your statement contradicts itself. If we don't have a concrete hierarchy on what type of high-godly regen is considered superior than another, which means we have to judge it on a case by case basis, then by default we can't really say there's a framework on levels of abstraction here. If we're talking about abstract existence types in terms of Thoughts compared to concept sure I will give you that, though we have Mid-Godly and High-Godly in a way showing the superiority there as thoughts are tied to one's mind/consciousness, which only reaches mid-godly levels while conceptual stuff is superior.

Unfortunately we don't have that be the basis for just High-Godly here. As a result we either need some proof that the regens being negged can actually affect those specific types of regen, or the verse itself needs to have it be specified that one type of erasure/regen is superior than another.

 

[Deceived3596]

It definitely doesn't contradict itself, you're just misreading/misunderstanding what i'm saying, what i mean when i say we don't have a "concrete hierarchy" is that we don't describe a hierarchy on our regeneration page, we just assert what's considered to be "fundamental" to one's existence, such as information, concept etc. But there's definitely a "generalized framework" which we do use to ascribe levels of "fundamentality" to objects, such as having differing levels of concepts which describe the different fundamental levels/existences of those concepts, with higher concepts being innately more abstract compared to lower concepts.

This same rule of thumb would apply to regeneration since we are capable of describing, in general terms, what's considered to be more abstract compared to another, such as Type 1 Concepts being more abstract compared to Type 2 Information or Type 2 Concepts being more fundamental than Type 3 Concepts etc.

Currently sure, but in actuality, i don't believe so.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg you do realize way too many fictional characters have those very specific abilities that you claim is redundant right? Just saying to mix it with power nullification isn’t really enough when power nullification is a more general term that’s in relation to your own ability. Immortality and regeneration being negated wouldn’t fall under power null in the same way as how Empathic and Fear hax is too specific that a lot of characters use to be mixed with mind manipulation.

Empathic Manipulation has no good reason to be separated from Mind Manipulation though lol
The only distinction you're making here is "I can only null a specific thing" which just means your power null is limited

 

[Fixxed]

Not know why we must separate that from powernull. I think it's a bit unnecessary. But if that simplify everything then... fine

 

[ImmortalDread]

Just add it to power nullification section. Your draft is still good, but it should be under power nullification.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sounds like limited powernull to me and the abilities also seem to strongly overlap (Like, negated Immortality is very often Type 3).
I would just list it as types or possible uses or something on the powernull page.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DontTalkDT Power null as an ability doesn’t automatically cover shit like Immortality and Regeneration being negated or bypassed though. You do realize plenty of characters have type 8,9 and 5 negation out the ass right? Those have little to no connection to regeneration negation at all.

@ImmortalDread why? Regen Negation and Immortality Negation is too specific for it to merge with power nullification.

@Tllmbrg Not limited per se but a more explicit type, which again would be a No Limits Fallacy to claim that general power null can just automatically stop one’s healing factor or immortality without any proof. Also what about Fear hax? That ability in of itself is just a limited Empathic hax and yet a lot of characters in fiction focus a lot on this specific type of ability, same with time stop and others, that doesn’t really mean we should nuke the pages and merge it with the generalized ones as it’s a bit disengenuous.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg Not limited per se but a more explicit type, which again would be a No Limits Fallacy to claim that general power null can just automatically stop one’s healing factor or immortality without any proof. Also what about Fear hax? That ability in of itself is just a limited Empathic hax and yet a lot of characters in fiction focus a lot on this specific type of ability, same with time stop and others, that doesn’t really mean we should nuke the pages and merge it with the generalized ones as it’s a bit disengenuous.

Yah people should detail what feats the null have and label it thusly, at best this is a case to expend the current power null page so it has types in it
Also I do think we should nuke fear manipulation yes, same with petrifaction and so on. They are just an application of a broader power, and if you can only do a specific thing with it then it is limited

 

[ImmortalDread]

@ImmortalDread why? Regen Negation and Immortality Negation is too specific for it to merge with power nullification.

Because those are types of power nullification. I am not against your draft, it's good but why not listing it under its respective ability?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Tllmbrg That really doesn’t debunk the fact that these abilities in fiction are treated as distinct abilities in of itself though. Nuking them would cause more confusion than anything.

@ImmortalDread Same with Empathic and Fear hax and Timestop but those abilities are distinguished enough from the ability they stemmed from to be their own page.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg That really doesn’t debunk the fact that these abilities in fiction are treated as distinct abilities in of itself though. Nuking them would cause more confusion than anything.

They're not distinct, making someone scared and making them madly in love with you is the same ability lol
It's like saying turning someone into gold is different then stone because different materials and that the latter is more widely spread

In general the concern of "It would be too confusing" just doesn't matter, since ideally you're just suppose to explain the ability so people don't assume it can do something it can't. If someone is confused about your fear aura not making someone horny due to to you labeling it as empathic manipulation they're the problem.

 

[Theglassman12]

They are distinct, especially from Mind Manipulation as that’s where it’s stemmed from in the first place. Besides even in the Power Nullification page we literally have Resistance Negation listed with a page to further expand upon its uses. I still don’t see why we can’t do the same thing for Immortality and Regen Negation when they can clear up a lot of misconceptions without boosting the Power Null page, especially when we have categories for these 2 abilities already.

 

[Tllmbrg]

They are distinct, especially from Mind Manipulation as that’s where it’s stemmed from in the first place.

No not really, empathic manipulation is a sub-use of it, and fear manipulation is a sub-use of empathic

Besides even in the Power Nullification page we literally have Resistance Negation listed with a page to further expand upon its uses. I still don’t see why we can’t do the same thing for Immortality and Regen Negation when they can clear up a lot of misconceptions without boosting the Power Null page, especially when we have categories for these 2 abilities already.

I think Resistance Negation should be nuked, literally no reason to treat resistances as a special form of negation
Heck we're probably better off removing said categories rather then making a page for it, not like we have a category page for say "Love Manipulation" (Which is a rather common emotion that's manipulated, heck love potions are probably more iconic then any fear based ability ever)

 

[Tarang123]

Empathic Manipulation has no good reason to be separated from Mind Manipulation though lol
The only distinction you're making here is "I can only null a specific thing" which just means your power null is limited

Uh...yes it does? From how I see it, Empathic Manipulation is pretty different from Mind Manipulation.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I always felt like immortality and regeneration negation needed their own pages, it's common enough for characters to have abilities or tools that specifically target and bypass someones immortality or ability to regen.

Also very upset that the Master Sword isn't one of the examples listed for regeneration negation