Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
- 1,637
So I decided to read some lovecraft stories, and I find the current ratings...off to say the least. Hence we are here. Please correct me if I misunderstand anything.
Gonna use this thread as a reference.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-revisions-part-1.113000/
The Hierarchies:
The Archetypes:
Summary so far:
Tier:
Clearing some misconceptions:
Final Summary:
Disagree: @ShivaShakti , @Planck69 , @BrackishBrineBroth, @Roachman40, @Elizhaa, @DaReaperMan, @Infinity_Shun, @Ultima_Reality, @Tyranno223, @Emirp sumitpo, @Brak, @DaringAttitude4, @OnsokunoSonic, @ZeedKrakenZilla, @Rez, @ZetaMarishi, @KingPin0422, @Abu2411, @Antvasima, @InfiniteDay, @Shizuka
Neutral: @Great_king_frog
Gonna use this thread as a reference.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-revisions-part-1.113000/
The Hierarchies:
“These higher dimensions are not necessarily properties that span the whole cosmology, however, and a single spacetime continuum can easily be construed as having an indefinite number of higher-dimensional planes within itself. Thus, making even a single universe potentially High 1-B.”
I am not exactly sure why an “indefinite” number of higher dimensions equates to potentially high 1-B here. And considering the revelation of those infinite higher dimensions was literally part of the “Ultimate Mystery” it seems very likely that they do indeed encompass the entire cosmology.
“As said above, all of these material, spatio-temporal realms are nothing but an infinitesimal "small wholeness" encompassed by the First Gate, a construct separating the physical realm from the dark formlessness that transcends it. Past it, there are only metaphysical worlds beyond the concepts of time, space and dimensions entirely, which are appropriately described as "trans-dimensional" and "undimensioned" multiple times.”
Lets see a compilation of the Outer Extension being called dimensioned:
The same Phillips who was later noted by Carter himself to have taken an incomplete(but likely accurate) view(incomplete because Carter’s journey went beyond just being in another time-dimension)
Moving forward to more quotes
Just as a bonus, here are some quotes from “The Dreams in the Witch House”:
Since “gates” is unlikely to refer to anything else, this is likely referring to the gates of the silver key, and explicitly being called “dimensional” and said to lead to higher dimensions.
Now in addition to the above, let me talk about the transdimensional and undimensioned quotes;
Transdimensional is literally a synonym for dimensions other than the 3 known ones. I am confused why this is even used as evidence for the first gate being beyond dimensions.This quote is no different from the Outer Extension being stated to be a “dimensional extension” of the earth in one of the quotes above, and should hold the same context.
Although one quote calling it undimensioned wouldn’t be enough to counter all the instances of it being called dimensioned, I think we can still offer an explanation for this apparent inconsistency. The last line is enough to imply that lovecraft is using the word “undimensioned” in a relative manner, for extensions of shape outside the dimensions we know.
Lovecraft tends to use descriptions like “beyond time and space” in a relative fashion, rather than an absolute one. Although the First Gate was stated to be outside time and space, it was implied that this description was used because the location and time which Carter existed in was outside those that can be described by earthly measures(aka the waking world or the 3 dimensional world):
Likewise, Outer Extension was also noted to have such things as shapes and geometries(although they defied the normal notions of these things)
Likewise, in “The Dreams in the Witch House”(The same story which also mentioned the “dimensional gates”) the protagonist notes the abysses of some higher dimension as having bizarre incomprehensible shapes:
Said abysses were explicitly noted to be of the 4th dimension and also have things of unknown colours similar to the region beyond the first gate:
Also just a bonus, Carter shouldn’t really be the most credible to provide most literal descriptions of things beyond the first gate, given how it was noted he still had “earthly eyes”
I believe all this is enough to show that the gates and vacuas should indeed be the same as the dimensional hierarchy, or even if they encompass multiple dimensions each the overall hierarchy would still be High 1-B.
I am not exactly sure why an “indefinite” number of higher dimensions equates to potentially high 1-B here. And considering the revelation of those infinite higher dimensions was literally part of the “Ultimate Mystery” it seems very likely that they do indeed encompass the entire cosmology.
“As said above, all of these material, spatio-temporal realms are nothing but an infinitesimal "small wholeness" encompassed by the First Gate, a construct separating the physical realm from the dark formlessness that transcends it. Past it, there are only metaphysical worlds beyond the concepts of time, space and dimensions entirely, which are appropriately described as "trans-dimensional" and "undimensioned" multiple times.”
Lets see a compilation of the Outer Extension being called dimensioned:
"It was this old man, Ward Phillips, who pleaded most loudly against the apportionment of Carter’s estate to his heirs—all distant cousins—on the ground that he was still alive in another time-dimension and might well return some day."
The same Phillips who was later noted by Carter himself to have taken an incomplete(but likely accurate) view(incomplete because Carter’s journey went beyond just being in another time-dimension)
“Gentlemen, there is more to this matter than you think. Mr. Aspinwall does not do well to laugh at the evidence of dreams. Mr. Phillips has taken an incomplete view—perhaps because he has not dreamed enough.”
Moving forward to more quotes
“And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.”
“For the first time Carter realized how terrific utter silence, mental and physical, may be. The earlier moments had never failed to contain some perceptible rhythm, if only the faint, cryptical pulse of the Earth's dimensional extension, but now the hush of the abyss seemed to fall upon everything.”
Just as a bonus, here are some quotes from “The Dreams in the Witch House”:
“He had been thinking too much about the vague regions which his formulae told him must lie beyond the three dimensions we know, and about the possibility that old Keziah Mason—guided by some influence past all conjecture—had actually found the gate to those regions.”
“The hidden cults to which these witches belonged often guarded and handed down surprising secrets from elder, forgotten aeons; and it was by no means impossible that Keziah had actually mastered the art of passing through dimensional gates. Tradition emphasises the uselessness of material barriers in halting a witch’s motions; and who can say what underlies the old tales of broomstick rides through the night?”
Since “gates” is unlikely to refer to anything else, this is likely referring to the gates of the silver key, and explicitly being called “dimensional” and said to lead to higher dimensions.
Now in addition to the above, let me talk about the transdimensional and undimensioned quotes;
“He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension.”
Transdimensional is literally a synonym for dimensions other than the 3 known ones. I am confused why this is even used as evidence for the first gate being beyond dimensions.This quote is no different from the Outer Extension being stated to be a “dimensional extension” of the earth in one of the quotes above, and should hold the same context.
“Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.”
Although one quote calling it undimensioned wouldn’t be enough to counter all the instances of it being called dimensioned, I think we can still offer an explanation for this apparent inconsistency. The last line is enough to imply that lovecraft is using the word “undimensioned” in a relative manner, for extensions of shape outside the dimensions we know.
Lovecraft tends to use descriptions like “beyond time and space” in a relative fashion, rather than an absolute one. Although the First Gate was stated to be outside time and space, it was implied that this description was used because the location and time which Carter existed in was outside those that can be described by earthly measures(aka the waking world or the 3 dimensional world):
“By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.”
Likewise, Outer Extension was also noted to have such things as shapes and geometries(although they defied the normal notions of these things)
“All at once the pageant of impressions seemed to achieve a vague kind of stabilisation. There were great masses of towering stone, carven into alien and incomprehensible designs and disposed according to the laws of some unknown, inverse geometry. Light filtered down from a sky of no assignable colour in baffling, contradictory directions, and played almost sentiently over what seemed to be a curved line of gigantic hieroglyphed pedestals more hexagonal than otherwise and surmounted by cloaked, ill-defined Shapes.”
Likewise, in “The Dreams in the Witch House”(The same story which also mentioned the “dimensional gates”) the protagonist notes the abysses of some higher dimension as having bizarre incomprehensible shapes:
“The pavement from which he easily raised himself was of a veined, polished stone beyond his power to identify, and the tiles were cut in bizarre-angled shapes which struck him as less asymmetrical than based on some unearthly symmetry whose laws he could not comprehend.”
Said abysses were explicitly noted to be of the 4th dimension and also have things of unknown colours similar to the region beyond the first gate:
“In the deeper dreams everything was likewise more distinct, and Gilman felt that the twilight abysses around him were those of the fourth dimension. Those organic entities whose motions seemed least flagrantly irrelevant and unmotivated were probably projections of life-forms from our own planet, including human beings. What the others were in their own dimensional sphere or spheres he dared not try to think. Two of the less irrelevantly moving things—a rather large congeries of iridescent, prolately spheroidal bubbles and a very much smaller polyhedron of unknown colours and rapidly shifting surface angles—seemed to take notice of him and follow him about or float ahead as he changed position among the titan prisms, labyrinths, cube-and-plane clusters, and quasi-buildings; and all the while the vague shrieking and roaring waxed louder and louder, as if approaching some monstrous climax of utterly unendurable intensity.”
Also just a bonus, Carter shouldn’t really be the most credible to provide most literal descriptions of things beyond the first gate, given how it was noted he still had “earthly eyes”
“Evidently he was implanting images of those things which he wished the Companions to dream; and Carter knew that as each of the Ancient Ones pictured the prescribed thought, there would be born the nucleus of a manifestation visible to his own earthly eyes”
I believe all this is enough to show that the gates and vacuas should indeed be the same as the dimensional hierarchy, or even if they encompass multiple dimensions each the overall hierarchy would still be High 1-B.
The Archetypes:
Now I will move onto the Archetypes
So here we have a very explicit quote that the archetypes exist outside dimensions(And they are the only ones that have such a description):
The inconsistency of the Outer Gods participating in what appears to be change is explained using this quote:
That when the Archetypes participate in change, they take fragmentary perspectives. However, the question is, where do these “fragmentary” avatars of the Archetypes fall in the hierarchy? Currently these fragments are treated as still being transcendentally superior to the hierarchies in the verse, however an important detail overlooked here is that said fragmentary perspectives are utilised for viewing the “cosmos”, which should consistently only include dimensioned regions below the genuine Ultimate Void in lovecraft cosmology as shown here for instance:
To support this, we have multiple statements implying that change is only a thing of “limited dimensions”
My interpretation is that the perspective of the Ultimate Abyss that Carter went to was in itself just a vague dimensional reduction/intersection of the actual Ultimate Abyss where the Archetypes reside.This is supported by the fact Carter explicitly calls the space beyond the Ultimate Gate as having dimensions:
He was also noted to still just be an infinitesimal fragment of his archetype:
It was also noted there was some final cosmic reality beyond all perspectives and even the place where Carter stood, likely the “Space outside dimensions” where the Archetypes reside:
This would be consistent with the region beyond the Ultimate being dimensioned in comparison to this final cosmic reality.
So here we have a very explicit quote that the archetypes exist outside dimensions(And they are the only ones that have such a description):
“All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions.”
The inconsistency of the Outer Gods participating in what appears to be change is explained using this quote:
“To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will.”
That when the Archetypes participate in change, they take fragmentary perspectives. However, the question is, where do these “fragmentary” avatars of the Archetypes fall in the hierarchy? Currently these fragments are treated as still being transcendentally superior to the hierarchies in the verse, however an important detail overlooked here is that said fragmentary perspectives are utilised for viewing the “cosmos”, which should consistently only include dimensioned regions below the genuine Ultimate Void in lovecraft cosmology as shown here for instance:
“Their main immediate abode is a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as “Yuggoth” in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so. But Yuggoth, of course, is only the stepping-stone. The main body of the beings inhabits strangely organised abysses wholly beyond the utmost reach of any human imagination. The space-time globule which we recognise as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs. And as much of this infinity as any human brain can hold is eventually to be opened up to me, as it has been to not more than fifty other men since the human race has existed.”
To support this, we have multiple statements implying that change is only a thing of “limited dimensions”
“Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future.”
“After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles.”
My interpretation is that the perspective of the Ultimate Abyss that Carter went to was in itself just a vague dimensional reduction/intersection of the actual Ultimate Abyss where the Archetypes reside.This is supported by the fact Carter explicitly calls the space beyond the Ultimate Gate as having dimensions:
“Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man.”
He was also noted to still just be an infinitesimal fragment of his archetype:
“Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part.”
It was also noted there was some final cosmic reality beyond all perspectives and even the place where Carter stood, likely the “Space outside dimensions” where the Archetypes reside:
“These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?”
This would be consistent with the region beyond the Ultimate being dimensioned in comparison to this final cosmic reality.
Summary so far:
- The gates and vacuas are the same as the dimensional hierarchy.
- The Archetypes exist outside dimensions.
- Their fragments don’t necessarily exist outside dimensions.
Tier:
So now that we have established the verse only has a single 1-B hierarchy, the possible tiers we have when dealing with the god tiers are either High 1-B, low 1-A and 1-A.
So what tier is actually accurate for the archetypes? At first glance 1-A seems accurate, but is it really? The general standards for 1-A demand something of a qualitative transcendence over a system of higher dimensions. One would think being stated to be above mathematics should warrant a transcendence of such a factor, however it isn’t exactly like that.
Gilman is quoted to state the Outer Void is beyond mathematics, but his knowledge on higher dimensional mathematics… isn’t exactly as impressive as you might think:
Same with Carter, who actually didn’t gain knowledge on the secrets of higher dimensions and the existence of an infinity of them until the Ultimate Mystery was revealed to him.
So...do the archetypes transcend dimensions by a qualitative margin? I would personally say no(do correct me if I missed something important), since they don’t work any differently from the rest of the cosmology aside from standing at the top and being changeless.
Everything is obtained by intersections of the Archetypes(Also notice the emphasis on “finite” dimensions), which is also how simple higher dimensions work in the verse:
There is also the fact that the same higher dimensional analogy goes up to the “Archetypal Infinity”, which can be interpreted as the infinity in which the archetypes reside, and the “heights” describing it falling within the same system or framework, although being relatively “reachless”, which can be interpreted as being relatively outside infinite dimensions but not by a qualitative margin. In more support of this, we see the “Ultimate Mystery” which was revealed to Carter by the supreme archetype only ever talking about an Infinity of dimensions at most, followed by something outside these dimensions. There is also no explicit mention of infinite dimensions being below the fragmentary avatars of the Archetypes. Hence my personal view is that the Archetypes should be around low 1-A at best. However, 1-A can also be seen as viable if you go for a highballed interpretation I guess.
So what tier is actually accurate for the archetypes? At first glance 1-A seems accurate, but is it really? The general standards for 1-A demand something of a qualitative transcendence over a system of higher dimensions. One would think being stated to be above mathematics should warrant a transcendence of such a factor, however it isn’t exactly like that.
Gilman is quoted to state the Outer Void is beyond mathematics, but his knowledge on higher dimensional mathematics… isn’t exactly as impressive as you might think:
“On reflection, he was glad he had not consulted the still more inquisitive college doctor. Old Waldron, who had curtailed his activities before, would have made him take a rest—an impossible thing now that he was so close to great results in his equations. He was certainly near the boundary between the known universe and the fourth dimension, and who could say how much farther he might go?”
Same with Carter, who actually didn’t gain knowledge on the secrets of higher dimensions and the existence of an infinity of them until the Ultimate Mystery was revealed to him.
So...do the archetypes transcend dimensions by a qualitative margin? I would personally say no(do correct me if I missed something important), since they don’t work any differently from the rest of the cosmology aside from standing at the top and being changeless.
“All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.”
Everything is obtained by intersections of the Archetypes(Also notice the emphasis on “finite” dimensions), which is also how simple higher dimensions work in the verse:
“Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.”
There is also the fact that the same higher dimensional analogy goes up to the “Archetypal Infinity”, which can be interpreted as the infinity in which the archetypes reside, and the “heights” describing it falling within the same system or framework, although being relatively “reachless”, which can be interpreted as being relatively outside infinite dimensions but not by a qualitative margin. In more support of this, we see the “Ultimate Mystery” which was revealed to Carter by the supreme archetype only ever talking about an Infinity of dimensions at most, followed by something outside these dimensions. There is also no explicit mention of infinite dimensions being below the fragmentary avatars of the Archetypes. Hence my personal view is that the Archetypes should be around low 1-A at best. However, 1-A can also be seen as viable if you go for a highballed interpretation I guess.
Clearing some misconceptions:
Another thing commonly misunderstood is this section:
This right here, is not implying that the conceptions of the supreme archetype are fractional because it is a fragment of some higher entity. In context of the story, these conceptions were fractional because they did not include any information about dimensions in the first place. This ties in with the Ultimate Mystery(another misunderstood thing).
What the Ultimate Mystery actually is is the knowledge behind the secrets of the cosmos and dimensions, as seen at the end of chapter 4 of “Through the gates of the Silver Key”
This then immediately ties into chapter 5 of the same story, which reveals information about even the functioning of basic dimensions to Carter:
Hence it seems pretty clear that the Ultimate Mystery is nothing but the secrets of the cosmos.
In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.
This right here, is not implying that the conceptions of the supreme archetype are fractional because it is a fragment of some higher entity. In context of the story, these conceptions were fractional because they did not include any information about dimensions in the first place. This ties in with the Ultimate Mystery(another misunderstood thing).
What the Ultimate Mystery actually is is the knowledge behind the secrets of the cosmos and dimensions, as seen at the end of chapter 4 of “Through the gates of the Silver Key”
“What you wish, I have found good; and I am ready to grant that which I have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet—five times only to those you call men, or those resembling them. I am ready to shew you the Ultimate Mystery, to look on which is to blast a feeble spirit. Yet before you gaze full at that last and first of secrets you may still wield a free choice, and return if you will through the two Gates with the Veil still unrent before your eyes.”
This then immediately ties into chapter 5 of the same story, which reveals information about even the functioning of basic dimensions to Carter:
“The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature”
“Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.”
Hence it seems pretty clear that the Ultimate Mystery is nothing but the secrets of the cosmos.
Final Summary:
- The hierarchy of dimensions/gates/vacuas is High 1-B.
- The archetypes are low 1-A, possibly 1-A due to existing in the space outside dimensions.
- Their fragments aren’t necessarily outside dimensions, and, although vague, at best likely only reach High 1-B.
- The ultimate mystery isn’t some layer in the cosmology, but actually just the secrets on the workings of the cosmology.
Disagree: @ShivaShakti , @Planck69 , @BrackishBrineBroth, @Roachman40, @Elizhaa, @DaReaperMan, @Infinity_Shun, @Ultima_Reality, @Tyranno223, @Emirp sumitpo, @Brak, @DaringAttitude4, @OnsokunoSonic, @ZeedKrakenZilla, @Rez, @ZetaMarishi, @KingPin0422, @Abu2411, @Antvasima, @InfiniteDay, @Shizuka
Neutral: @Great_king_frog
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