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Arceus and The Creation Trio avatars downgrade (and yes I'm serious)

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Hasty12345 said:
yeah, well you gave good evidence of low 2-C, but that's not 2-A.

As for those play through clips, idk if they should be enough for 2-A, but I suppose that's the point of this CRT

For the record, prior to this I thought these feats were AP based and hadn't considered the possibility they're hax based, but I do think this is a good opportunity to debunk that idea so solidify the ratings.
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Distorting all the dimension being stated from a guy who’s aware of all of them is 2-A.
Gohanblanco217 said:
Because most of their other Low 2-C and 2-A feats were done Via hax then this should be no different, the fact that Palkia and Dialga had to combine their space-time powers to create a universe already says a lot (never mind about 2-A Dialga and Palkia) , the only legitimate feat is destroying the new Universe by using Spacial Rend (a hax based ability) and Roar of Time which again everything is done via hax
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Roar of Time and Spatial Rend can be tanked physically as they’re counted as regular attacks in Darkrai Movie and even confirmed in the manga adaptation scan you’re blatantly ignoring.
 
Gohanblanco217 said:
Currently the avatars are rated as 2-A because they have some 2-A feats such us creating the Pokémon Cosmology and some Multiversal busting feats and some ***** like that, however while this might be true except there are many issues that People hasn't noticed it yet which would be explained here :

1) Their Multiversal and Universal feats were not based on AP :

For starters as I said yes their Universal and Multiversal feats are not done via AP and it's mostly done via hax, as an example :

Palkia and Dialga were stated to have the ability to destroy the entire world until it becomes a complete nothingness this seems like an AP based attack however if we pay a close attention it says that they are destroying the universe by distorting time and space which doesn't necessarily scale to AP and it was more like due to thier Space and time powers/hax.
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Okay, for one, you do realize that Dialga and Palkia are both literal time and space, yes? They are not some simple time and space manipulators, they are time and space. As such, the power that they use for destroying anything isn't simply just time and space hax for them. Especially when the 2's own signature moves, which are clearly actual attacks, are time and space based moves.

On top of that, Dialga and Palkia have both been blatantly shown to also create universes using pure energy in the anime, which further supports this notion.

Even then, "time" and "space" clashing together is not indicative of simply being hax. This is akin to saying that any universe creator, multiverse creator, and upward are simply using time and space hax to do their feats, which is an obvious no.

So an absolute no to this. The feats being "just time and space hax" are head-canon from the OP and are unsupported by anything but personal interpretation.
Gohanblanco217 said:
An other example :

would Be Dialga and Palkia opening Portals to destroy the Universe which again doesn't necessarily scales to AP and it's done via Hax,
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Uh, unless im remembering it incorrectly, this was them opening the portal to the Distortion World instead. But even then, the portal being there can also just as easily be the portal to the new universe they are making for Cyrus, which is destroying the old in the process of it's creation.

And yes, the franchise has shown this before through the anime. Dialga and Palkia's new universe for Cyrus in the anime has a portal leading into it, which clearly depicts an actual universe in the making inside of it, while the old is getting destroyed. This here in the manga wouldn't be any different.
Gohanblanco217 said:
an other example from the games is Dialga destroying the Universe by distorting time :

which was a chain reaction feat and it does not scale to AP and it was more like a hax based ability again same goes for Giratina who need to opne Portals/holes to destroy the Universe :
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Again, Dialga literally IS Time, which is as physical to itself as space is to Palkia. On top of this, not only was this feat done by their mere presence when being called to Mt. Coronet, time and space distorting when a universe is getting effected is basic 101 effects of anything tier 2 and up. Doesn't mean its explicitly haxed based.
Gohanblanco217 said:


And the Conclusion is all of Arceus and the Creation Trio feats (2-A and low 2-C) are Done via Hax and there weren't a single instance where they performed a Low 2-C and 2-A feats that was done via pure AP
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See above. The anime by itself debunks this and all of this "haxed" based nonsense is being argued by sheer personal interpretation of the feats.
Gohanblanco217 said:
The only supporting evidence would probably be Arceus shaking and making 3 separated universes to collide however looking at the majority of the Low 2-C and 2-A that were done via hax + the low ends showings, it would be safe to assume that Arceus was also doing this via an ability that shouldn't scale to his actual statistics.
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Moving literal universes, with raw energy, is hax now? Just what?
Gohanblanco217 said:
The Fact that they don't destroy the Universe directly but they need to do ***** like Creating Portals and distorting space and time itself to bust a Universe already says a lot.
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First of all, the anime by itself again debunks you on this. Dialga and Palkia used literal raw energy to make Cyrus's universe there.

Second, distorting space time when effecting the universe =/= hax only. And with this sites standard of even treating reality warping as enough to directly scale characters to a given tier, this supports me even more.

And third, if you actually knew what your talking about, you would know that the distortion world also blatantly prevents universes from being destroyed in Pokemon. Cause you know, it maintains the balance between time and space. And this is outright said to be the case in the games (and manga most likely).

Not to mention, this is also partially using the typical AoE argument with the "not directly destroying the universe" bit, which is already nonsense unless you want to downgrade half of this wiki for the exact same thing.
Gohanblanco217 said:
2) the Low ends showings aren't Pis nor they are Outliers

Yes they are not Pis why? It's simple because they never had a single Low 2-C or 2-A AP feats to begin with, those are simply Context Clues considering most of the Low 2-C and 2-A were done via hax and some of them were done via a chain reaction and the fact that their Low ends showings are pretty consistent then it's safe to assume that Arceus and the Creation avatars does not have 2-A statistics whatsoever and I think i made it pretty clear tbh no need for further explanation.
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And finally, see above. This is all nonsense for the given reasons above. So yes, they are low end outliers to be disregarded.

So it obviously goes without saying, but im vehemently against any kind of downgrade to these guys whatsoever. And im not changing my mind.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
This is not useful. Several characters do the same thing and are only Tier 7
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Also, to answer back to this, I dunno where this "only tier 7" stuff comes from for something of this scale, but even if that is the case for characters here, it most certainly isn't for Arceus.

Arceus, just by sleeping (and a weakened Arceus mind you) was distorting time and space and moving dimensions with whirlpools of energy that surrounded it. So it's absolutely not haxed based in this particular case.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Uh, unless im remembering it incorrectly, this was them opening the portal to the Distortion World instead. But even then, the portal being there can also just as easily be the portal to the new universe they are making for Cyrus, which is destroying the old in the process of it's creation.
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Going to explain that in my blog, but the context was basically Charon using a machine that influences minds in order to make Dialga and Palkia to open a portal to the Distortion World instead of creating a new universe
 
Executor_N0 said:
Going to explain that in my blog, but the context was basically Charon using a machine that influences minds in order to make Dialga and Palkia to open a portal to the Distortion World instead of creating a new universe
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As I thought. I thought I was going a little crazy for a second lol, but thanks for confirming my suspicion on this point.
 
Just out of curiosity, if the main justification for their levels is that they are the reincarnation of space-time doesn't that create inconsistency? We are considering the reincarnation of space be equal in power to time
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Just out of curiosity, if the main justification for their levels is that they are the reincarnation of space-time doesn't that create inconsistency? We are considering the reincarnation of space be equal in power to time
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Im....kinda not getting the question or issue here? What do you mean?
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Just out of curiosity, if the main justification for their levels is that they are the reincarnation of space-time doesn't that create inconsistency? We are considering the reincarnation of space be equal in power to time
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Space in Pokemon is counted as 4D in its entirely, the 2-A cosmology blog is a proof of such
 
Also, not that it matters to the overall point, but the Unown's dimension isn't of "unknown" size either. It is a universe. It's directly called one in the anime and it's a dimension that exists on the level of the god tier's dimensions (Dialga and Palkia were pushed into their dimension when Arceus in his sleep collided their dimensions together).
 
StrymULTRA said:
Space is 3D from default, and it's definitely not in Pokémon for obvious reasons, the cosmology blog is a proof of that alone
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Ah. Then yeah, what Strym said then.

The fact that Palkia individually has it's own 2-A feat of being the creator of parallel universes by itself proves 4-D space as well.
 
I disagree as well, as for the time vs space question, pretty sure time and space are equal and high 3-A unless togheter, so it wouldn't be weird for space to fight with time.

In pokemon they outright made them equal and of a higher level so is no that bad.
 
Also, Groudon and Kyogre can mess up with the Land and Seas in the same fashion like Dialga and Palkia do with space-time. Is them being High 6-A only via hax? Nope, so Dialga and Palkia aren't either, as is basically the same stuff but on Tier 2 scale instead of Tier 6.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
This, again? At this point we need a discussion rule to stop shit like this from coming up again, and again, and again.
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By the way, im very serious about this point here ^. Soon as this threads done, we need a discussion rule for this shit.

Downgrade attempts like this have come up far too often for these guys, for ultimately being the same thing every time and it ending the exact same way every time. This is nothing new, this is repetitive and it needs to be kept on a leash at this point.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
By the way, im very serious about this point here ^. Soon as this threads done, we need a discussion rule for this shit.

Downgrade attempts like this have come up far too often for these guys, for ultimately being the same thing every time and it ending the exact same way every time. This is nothing new, this is repetitive and it needs to be kept on a leash at this point
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I suggest a giant "Creation Trio downplay debunked" thread you can link to whenever this pops up but that's just me.
 
BrokenStains said:
I suggest a giant "Creation Trio downplay debunked" thread you can link to whenever this pops up but that's just me.
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That's pointless. A concise rule explaining why these sorts of threads are forbidden works.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Thats more or so every other thread with this topic that comes every few months.

And im not joking. We've literally had a similar discussion to this one barely 2 months ago. And through the span of 2 threads.
Click to expand...
If that happens that often, then a discussion rule must be made in order for them to be stopped
 
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