Arceus and The Creation Trio avatars downgrade (and yes I'm serious)

[BlackDarkness679]

Disagree based on the debunks posted for it here

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Disagree

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's pointless. A concise rule explaining why these sorts of threads are forbidden works.

Can you close this thread? It was already debunked to death. If anything, I think we should add this to the Discussion Rules:

• Do not try to downgrade Arceus and the Creation Trio based on them being harmed from Pokémon who are below to 2-B/2-A in statistics. It was already been brought up and rejected numerous times.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It’s rare that I agree with Kukui nowadays but needless to say I disagree.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It’s rare that I agree with Kukui nowadays but needless to say I disagree.

What I have done wrong tho? o.o

 

[Psychomaster35]

I obviously dont agree with this as well

 

[NeoZex6399]

agree with Kukui

 

[Planck69]

Seeing as all the staff who commented have voiced disagreement and the fact that this topic was tackled before, I'll close this thread.

The original poster can message me or another moderator to open the thread but only if it's truly important.

 

[Planck69]

I've been asked to reopen this thread as the matter of the discussion rule hasn't been tackled.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, we can close it in a sec but we should handle the discussion rule and who's gonna add it. Then we're finished.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Kukui debunked this heavily. I hard disagree.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can you close this thread? It was already debunked to death. If anything, I think we should add this to the Discussion Rules:

• Do not try to downgrade Arceus and the Creation Trio based on them being harmed from Pokémon who are below to 2-B/2-A in statistics. It was already been brought up and rejected numerous times.

Strym seems to have written up a good one here. Does anyone think this looks good, needs more editing or anything else?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Okay, for one, you do realize that Dialga and Palkia are both literal time and space, yes?

Eh.... I thought that those statements were mostly referring to their True forms.

yes? They are not some simple time and space manipulators, they are time and space

I'm still kind iffy about this why we should take this arguments seriously? Those could very well be some hyperbole statements which just imply that Plakia and Dialga are Time and space manipulators unless You think Plakia is 3D Physically and Dilaga is 4D?

As such, the power that they use for destroying anything isn't simply just time and space hax for them. Especially when the 2's own signature moves, which are clearly actual attacks, are time and space based moves.

Considering most of Thier consistent low ends showings say otherwise then it's safe to assume that those are just pure hax instead of them being Real AP attacks.

Even then, "time" and "space" clashing together is not indicative of simply being hax. This is akin to saying that any universe creator, multiverse creator, and upward are simply using time and space hax to do their feats, which is an obvious no.

The problem is that they aren't destroying the space and time normaly, they are doing this by distorting space and time (Dialga does distort time and Palkia does distort space) and this results on the destruction of the universe as shown in the manga IIRC it was stated in the manga that Dialga main ability is to Distort time and Plakia main ability is to distort space and when they combine those powers (in a battle for example) it would result on the destruction of the Universe by merging future, past, present due to a chain reaction, the fact that other people were able to survive the distortion shows that it's not a truly done via AP.

So an absolute no to this. The feats being "just time and space hax" are head-canon from the OP and are unsupported by anything but personal interpretation.

It's not headcanon it's called Context clues, due to Arceus and the Creation Trio low ends feats being consistent then it's safe to assume that his 2-A and Low 2-C feats are just pure hax and AP wasn't completely involved, it really doesn't make sense to see Normal Pokémons harming the Creation Trio every time they show up, 1 anti feat? Okay maybe it's Pis, 2 to 3 anti feats ? It's okay I'll ignore that , 8 anti feats? Okay I'll close my eyes for this shit, but more then 20 anti feats?? (I counted and they are far more then that) unless The Creator is a big moron who always forget about the massive AP difference this clearly isn't logical.

Uh, unless im remembering it incorrectly, this was them opening the portal to the Distortion World instead. But even then, the portal being there can also just as easily be the portal to the new universe they are making for Cyrus, which is destroying the old in the process of it's creation.

IIRC their clash together and by combining their space-time powers it created a Portal that was going to swallow the whole Universe which was Cyrus plane.

And yes, the franchise has shown this before through the anime. Dialga and Palkia's new universe for Cyrus in the anime has a portal leading into it, which clearly depicts an actual universe in the making inside of it, while the old is getting destroyed. This here in the manga wouldn't be any different.

I'm pretty sure... That this wasn't the case for the Manga but anyway it doesn't change the fact that the Universe was being destroyed due the Portal so that still should not scale to Thier AP and durability

First of all, the anime by itself again debunks you on this. Dialga and Palkia used literal raw energy to make Cyrus's universe there.

Or it could just be that those Raw energy attacks aren't just AP but also Hax? Even if they are literally AP attacks as long some kind of hax was involved then it doesn't truly scale to their AP the low ends feats are still a supporting evidence.

Second, distorting space time when effecting the universe =/= hax only. And with this sites standard of even treating reality warping as enough to directly scale characters to a given tier, this supports me even more.

And since when we did that?

And third, if you actually knew what your talking about, you would know that the distortion world also blatantly prevents universes from being destroyed in Pokemon. Cause you know, it maintains the balance between time and space. And this is outright said to be the case in the games (and manga most likely).

Never denied that.

You know it's not anyone's fault if a lot of people want to downgrade those Pokémons it's you guys fault for not posting enough evidence on their profile to backup you guys claims I'm not gonna waste my time searching for respects threads from North, east, south, west and then read the whole thing because from I saw in their Profiles the AP justification wasn't enough and it made me feel that those 2-A feats were done Via hax and even by reading the respect threads most of the AP feats weren't explained well, so to recap (and no offense tbh) the Profiles are shit, most of the abilities and AP feats aren't well explained in the Profile and a lot of them aren't linked with any evidence to begin with and this even in the respect threads, that's why people think that Pokémon is wanked on this site

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don’t think this appears often enough to make a discussion rule. That’s for the really big things.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don’t think this appears often enough to make a discussion rule. That’s for the really big things.

Yeah but these downgrade attempts have been coming up too often lately that its getting repetitive.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well, as much as I think this thread is to be honest, not that great. We do have to remember that Pokemon has had a bunch of upgrades (some pretty questionable. Not the 2-A stuff though, just....the other shit. But I don't care enough to deal with that), so there being some people creating downgrades is to be expected. Just deal with them as they come, and if we get like 1 or 2 more that repeat the same shit we see here then yeah, make a Discussion Rule.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Well, as much as I think this thread is to be honest, not that great. We do have to remember that Pokemon has had a bunch of upgrades (some pretty questionable. Not the 2-A stuff though, just....the other shit. But I don't care enough to deal with that), so there being some people creating downgrades is to be expected. Just deal with them as they come, and if we get like 1 or 2 more that repeat the same shit we see here then yeah, make a Discussion Rule.

No offense tbh but that simply due to the the Profiles are shit, most of the abilities and AP feats aren't well explained in the Profile and a lot of them aren't linked with any evidence to begin with and this even in the respect threads, that's why people think that Pokémon is wanked on this site. Don't expect for anyone to try and find separated respect threads from North, east, south, west and then read the whole thing And the feats in those respect threads aren't even well explained in the first place

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Executor has said multiple times that he's going to be making blogs for the verse in the same way he does Digimon, so like...if people could just wait instead of spamming the same revisions over and over, perhaps the files can be fixed to your liking.

Also no offense but you would have known about these revisions and are a member of this site. So what's your excuse for not reading the CRTs for this stuff which have everything laid out for you?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Eh.... I thought that those statements were mostly referring to their True forms.

That doesn't matter. The point here is that time to Dialga, is as physical to it as space is to Palkia. Because they literally are what they use, what they govern and what they apply into their attacks.

I'm still kind iffy about this why we should take this arguments seriously? Those could very well be some hyperbole statements which just imply that Plakia and Dialga are Time and space manipulators unless You think Plakia is 3D Physically and Dilaga is 4D?

Hyperbole

Yeah no. Several evidences have given support for them being literal time and space, and this quick copout of trying to claim hyperbole when nothing supports it isn't going to fly on it either. On top of that, as already proven above, space in Pokemon isn't 3-D. It's 4-D.

Considering most of Thier consistent low ends showings say otherwise then it's safe to assume that those are just pure hax instead of them being Real AP attacks.

Except, they don't say otherwise. Because that's not how this works.

You're starting this argument with the assumption that they're only hax, latching onto that assumption to think it's facts first when nothing supports it, and then using it as a weapon against the counter arguments when it's not supported in the first place. Not by our sites standards or by the feats themselves.

The problem is that they aren't destroying the space and time normaly, they are doing this by distorting space and time (Dialga does distort time and Palkia does distort space) and this results on the destruction of the universe as shown in the manga IIRC it was stated in the manga that Dialga main ability is to Distort time and Plakia main ability is to distort space

Again, okay? They can literally do the same thing with their actual attacks and space-time distortions being brought about from the destruction of a universe, multiverse or any given cosmic structure is literally nothing new in tier 2 and upward.

Not to mention, again, with these 2 literally being what they govern and manipulate, time and space getting destroyed would still be as physical to them as destroying it with attacks.

and when they combine those powers (in a battle for example) it would result on the destruction of the Universe by merging future, past, present due to a chain reaction, the fact that other people were able to survive the distortion shows that it's not a truly done via AP.

For one, the humans and pokemon "survived" the distortions by moving in the parts where the distortions are the weakest, and even with that, outliers are still a thing. Provided you use and actually apply them in the correct manner.

Secondly, your point here still ignores the fact that the distortion world prevents this destruction because of it maintaining the balance of time and space, as specified and blatantly made the case in the anime (Giratina and the Sky Warrior), the games and (most likely) the manga.

Third, stop assuming this is a chain reaction from the very beginning and then sticking it to like it's some fact to start off with. Again, that is not how this works.

It's not headcanon it's called Context clues, due to Arceus and the Creation Trio low ends feats being consistent

They aren't consistent. Thats your personal interpretation that's proved by nothing.

then it's safe to assume that his 2-A and Low 2-C feats are just pure hax and AP wasn't completely involved,

See above. It isn't.

it really doesn't make sense to see Normal Pokémons harming the Creation Trio every time they show up, 1 anti feat? Okay maybe it's Pis, 2 to 3 anti feats ? It's okay I'll ignore that , 8 anti feats? Okay I'll close my eyes for this shit, but more then 20 anti feats?? (I counted and they are far more then that) unless The Creator is a big moron who always forget about the massive AP difference this clearly isn't logical.

Stop over exaggerating the actual anti feats here when these anti feats (which some are already self-contradicting in and of themselves) are not as big as your trying to make them out to be.

It doesn't make sense for any x fodder character to harm y character that's demonstrably superior to them by infinite leaps and bounds. But its' going to happen, because there's no such thing as fiction being immune to inconsistencies for the sake of plot progression. Inconsistencies exist in every verse. Every single one. But they are not going to fly here in an attempt to downgrade them, and Pokemon is no exception. Especially when the case we are speaking of is a case involving the literal strongest beings of the verse, who of course are going to be subjected to the most PIS in a situation like this.

The simplest truth is that this is PIS by large degrees and should be disregarded. Simple as that. Pokemon does not set the standard that Arceus, the CT or even legendaries in general are these untouchable gods who can't be harmed by fodders in any given plot scenario. If that were the case, any story involving them would make no sense, for they would instantly win and wreck everyone before the story begins. And that's obviously not going to happen. Especially when the said pokemon who "harm" them then go on to get wrecked by infinitely inferior pokemon to the god tiers the next time they show up. Why? Because of inconsistent scaling that isn't to be taken literally.

IIRC their clash together and by combining their space-time powers it created a Portal that was going to swallow the whole Universe which was Cyrus plane.

You would still be wrong on this point for the earlier one I gave, but it doesn't matter as Ex confirmed the debunk anyway. Charon was using them to create a portal to the distortion world instead of making Cyrus's universe. So your point here goes straight out the window.

I'm pretty sure... That this wasn't the case for the Manga but anyway it doesn't change the fact that the Universe was being destroyed due the Portal so that still should not scale to Thier AP and durability

Or the universe was being destroyed by the new universe they were making. Which is most certainly the case.

Or it could just be that those Raw energy attacks aren't just AP but also Hax?

Uh.....what? Energy is not hax....

Even if they are literally AP attacks as long some kind of hax was involved then it doesn't truly scale to their AP the low ends feats are still a supporting evidence.

And that's more bullshit. Attacks can absolutely have a hax effect to them and still be literal AP. Arguing energy is somehow pure hax is just being dishonest and giving nonsense.

And since when we did that?

Since always.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyways, if we aren't goin to add a discussion rule after all, then I guess this can be re-closed.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Disagree FRA

I'm not a expert on Pokémon btw (I'm rather knowledgeable, but i haven't played all of the games), but from Kukui's reasons i gotta say i disagree

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Anyways, if we aren't goin to add a discussion rule after all, then I guess this can be re-closed.

Instead of saying "We should make a discussion rule why don't you fix the profiles first?

You know it's not anyone's fault if a lot of people want to downgrade those Pokémons it's you guys fault for not posting enough evidence on their profile to backup you guys claims I'm not gonna waste my time searching for respects threads from North, east, south, west and then read the whole thing because from I saw in their Profiles the AP justification wasn't enough and it made me feel that those 2-A feats were done Via hax and even by reading the respect threads most of the AP feats weren't explained well, so to recap (and no offense tbh) the Profiles are shit, most of the abilities and AP feats aren't well explained in the Profile and a lot of them aren't linked with any evidence to begin with and this even in the respect threads, that's why people think that Pokémon is wanked on this site

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Executor has said multiple times that he's going to be making blogs for the verse in the same way he does Digimon, so like...if people could just wait instead of spamming the same revisions over and over, perhaps the files can be fixed to your liking.

Also no offense but you would have known about these revisions and are a member of this site. So what's your excuse for not reading the CRTs for this stuff which h

Eh I really didn't knew about the new blogs and stuff and actually you guys are gonna do this shit now ? It's something that should have been done a long time ago, I was even asking questions in the "Questions and answers" board but no one was answering properly and they were giving me 0 scans of course to support their claims

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I've told the Pokemon people to create blogs for ages now. However, Ex has finally started tackling the verse to get everything more easy to find and sourced.

What were these questions you were asking considering some questions can be answered by pure common sense.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I've told the Pokemon people to create blogs for ages now. However, Ex has finally started tackling the verse to get everything more easy to find and sourced.

What were these questions you were asking considering some questions can be answered by pure common sense.

About the true forms and a lot of other stuff because everything seemed to be iffy for me at this point

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Can you link the thread?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Instead of saying "We should make a discussion rule why don't you fix the profiles first?

Or you can drop the attitude and stop acting like we aren't aware. We know the pages aren't up to the gold standard of well explained, as I've complained about before as well.

But not everyone has the time to do a mass big project of updating the pages already existing info (and adding in stuff that needs to be added already) for people have, you know, actual lives. And as Dragon said, it's also not mine or anyone else's problem that you want to be spoon fed every bit of info as possible instead of using pure common sense to do it for you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hell, I still have another Pokemon Blog I need to do for some general Pokemon abilities that's been accepted for months now, but haven't had the time to (for now I have to regather the video evidences for it as they are deleted and then compile them into the blog).

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Or you can drop the attitude and stop acting like we aren't aware. We know the pages aren't up to the gold standard of well explained, as I've complained about before as well.

Or you should just stop being lazy and taking a lot of time to fix a damm profile profile

But not everyone has the time to do a mass big project of updating the pages already existing info (and adding in stuff that needs to be added already) for people have, you know, actual lives

Yes actual lives because I think it takes 90 years to fix a profile I guess.

it's also not mine or anyone else's problem that you want to be spoon fed every bit of info as possible instead of using pure common sense to do it for you.

And it's also not my problem or anyone's problem if you guys are lazy to make at least some small adjustments for a single profile

 

[Planck69]

Or you should just stop being lazy and taking a lot of time to fix a damm profile profile



Yes actual lives because I think it takes 90 years to fix a profile I guess.



And it's also not my problem or anyone's problem if you guys are lazy to make at least some small adjustments for a single profile

Drop the attitude. Now.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Can you link the thread?

Here's an example

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Drop the attitude. Now.

Well my appollogies I got a little bit angry

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Here's an example

Yet you didn't continue the conversation or ask for anything? Based on what we see, you just deleted your question and moved on. Hell, you only gave them a day to reply before you deleted your comment, leading to the thread dying for a whole month.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well my appollogies I got a little bit angry

There's literally no reason to over a page dude.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Yet you didn't continue the conversation or ask for anything? Based on what we see, you just accepted it and moved on.

Because I gived up as every time i ask something about Pokémons I just see some simple answers and most of them aren't backed up by any evidence, I even once asked where did the true forms come from but of course they were posting quotes and claims without scans I was also asking Professor Kuki but he wasn't giving me any answers he told me that everything I'm asking is on the profiles but when I check the profiles I still see no proper evidence linked

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because again, pure common sense can literally answer majority of the questions you have asked before instead of spoon feeding you every bit of precise information.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because I gived up as every time i ask something about Pokémons I just see some simple answers and most of them aren't backed up by any evidence, I even once asked where did the true forms come from but of course they were posting quotes and claims without scans I was also asking Professor Kuki but he wasn't giving me any answers he told that everything I'm asking is on the profiles but when I check the profiles I still see no proper evidence linked

That thread doesn't show that. That thread you posted shows you guys arguing context over a statement about Giratina's banishment. And the moment you ask a question, you delete it after only giving them a day to answer leading to no one being able to answer likely due to not being available at the time. Now where is this situation you are talking about?

 

[Arceus0x]

Kukui when someone posts a CT downgrade thread for the 10th time this year

 

[Gohanblanco217]

That thread doesn't show that. That thread you posted shows you guys arguing context over a statement about Giratina's banishment. And the moment you ask a question, you delete it after only giving them a day to answer leading to no one being able to answer likely due to not being available at the time. Now where is this situation you are talking about?

Did you ...even read anything I said? I give up just close this thread I didn't say anything

Because again, pure common sense can literally answer majority of the questions you have asked before instead of spoon feeding you every bit of precise information.

Well my appollogies for being a bother I just wanted have more informations about the Pokémon profiles that's all what I wanted.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Did you ...even read anything I said? I give up just close this thread I didn't say anything

Yes, I read, but what you're saying doesn't add up when discussing the thread you linked, but whatever.