Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Conceptual CRTs

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

I'm leaning towards GotP's argument rn

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Then don't write it out and actually think about what you're going to argue in essence, this is the basic concepts to forming an argument. Wiki article directly describes why what you did is gish gallop but I'm not going off topic for this if you believe you didn't gish gallop I frankly don't care.

You just repeated yourself here, no reason to re-refute. I really do not care what Xemnas' motive was for lying, as established he objectively is known for lying and the way nobodies powers work clearly contradict this. For the new stuff, this is pure headcanon, it's pretty clear they were blindly accepted they had no hearts as what is he going to use as evidence? We don't need a scene for the obvious. Your last sentence even proved it was blind acceptance, circumstantial evidence being used to accept does not disqualify someone blindly accepting.

English Phrase: blindly accept (something) | PhraseMix.com

Now before you attempt to nitpick the article, read it carefully. I'm going to go over this quickly, they had no debate with this, did not look into the details of if they really had no hearts or not nor did they think about it carefully or they would've found out the contradictions, like how they actually aren't emotionless. They took just what's accepted as heartless lose hearts so they must've lost it too and Xemnas' word, that's blindly accepting.

Cool that you said that, I already established that their death has them fade into darkness and them having darkness related powers is support, please read carefully.

"Comparatively subtle"

Idc how badly he wanted to find his friends and family anyone with two seconds of thinking would question why would they fake their emotions upon their death. Just because you're emotionally distraught does not mean you lose all logical train of thought. Also any logical person would understand you can't fake emotions to the extent that when you're dying to enemies who already know your emotions are fake that you proceed to keep faking.

Yes, everything in the verse clearly doesn't have a heart, only living things, which is directly told and shown to use when something has a heart. What are you not getting here? No, it's really not, every single object in Andy's room that's not woody and them, doesn't have a heart, the random barrels you break in Tangled, don't have hearts, etc. It's really not that hard.

The lore is not that complicated, as long as you pay attention to how scenes work, so no it's not really that deep.

I was talking about you accusing me of doing the gish galloping deliberately in order to win the discussion. It's the same topic as the time where you brought up strawmanning and I concluded based on what you said back then that you weren't accusing me of doing this deliberately. Gish galloping with how it is described on Wikipedia implies that I was throwing arguments out without caring for their strength or accuracy. I very much care about my arguments being accurate and if they aren't, I'd appreciate it if you point that out and explain why. I won't tolerate anyone stating anything else. As for the strength of my arguments, I just write whatever arguments I can think of to what you wrote and believe to be somewhat relevant but I wouldn't put random arguments in my comment just for the sake of having them if you understand what I mean.

Xemnas is known for lying because of how major the lie is he told not because of the number of lies he told. There is no reason to assume that he is lying about anything else other than Nobodies not having hearts unless he would have a motive for doing so. Therefore, if we are talking about Xemnas lying, then his motives are very much important for narrative and logical reasons. The circumstantial evidence would have already planted the idea of them having no hearts in their heads and since we didn't see what Xemnas exactly did for convincing them, believing that they accepted it blindly is headcanon. They spent a decade as Nobodies, are knowledgeable about the nature of Heartless and therefore how they are created, and we certainly haven't seen the full extent of what exactly they have done in that time. You are basically using the idea of them having been blindly loyal idiots as an explanation for how they fell for Xemnas' lie despite their backgrounds as researchers and the fact that they are very much portrayed as anything but stupid in their cutscenes.

So, what you are saying is that them fading into darkness upon dying automatically means that they are beings of darkness, right?

It was already established that Nobodies want to have their hearts back since they are missing their emotions, so it isn't too farfetched that they would be faking their emotions for the sake of it. Assuming that was at the very least easier for Sora than to question what he knew about Nobodies since he had more immediate concerns with the Organization and Riku. He didn't lose all logical train of thought, he was hyperfocused on achieving his goal as well as frustrated and wasn't going to let anything slow him down.

If living things are alive because of having a heart, then saying that only living things have a heart is the same as saying only things that have a heart have a heart. Do you really not see how this goes full circle and is therefore a tautology? Your definition of alive doesn't add anything to the topic and fails to properly explain how some things don't have hearts. You do have a point when you say that not everything has a heart since it wasn't exactly stated that everything has a heart (instead it was said that hearts are all around us) but you have given no real explanation or definition for which things there are no hearts.

While I do agree that Kingdom Hearts is understandable as long as you pay attention the fact that this is necessary and that quite a number of people are struggling with doing so shows that the lore has a certain level of complexity even if it isn't as complex as some people make it out to be. I'd also argue that quite a number of elements of the series can be pretty deep if you give them some thought.

Just saw Nehz reply to my examples, first one is just purely wrong, no she has the exact same features, the most she got via growing up was getting taller and a different dress, Mickey should've easily been able to tell.

Nehz, someone being worried about someone does not disqualify logic. Ven is standing weird with a large weapon, the very weapon Xehanort wanted to create, you can easily put two and two together while being worried for someone. Read this a primary example without nitpicking it

Physical Effects of Worrying

Worrying can lead to high anxiety, which can trigger physical illness. Learn more from WebMD about how excessive worrying can affect your health - and how to manage it.

www.webmd.com

Worrying makes you overthink, it doesn't throw logic out of the window.

Tfw someone takes you seriously on Sherlock level stuff when it was a hyperbolic statement meant to explain these characters clearly aren't intuitively smart.

As I said, there are years between Mickey encountering Kairi as a child and him encountering her again after that, and he had other things to do at the time. They barely had any interaction at all and it's unlikely that he memorized her features very well. As for the differences in appearance between her as a child and as she is later, her hairstyle is different in KHI and KHII compared to back then and her facial features have become more mature. Red hair and blue eyes might be rare but they aren't unique and I would probably not even remember that much after over a decade if I were Mickey. Also, after that single short encounter Mickey actually met Kairi for the first time at the end of KHII and they had other things to deal with at the time.

The article you've linked is about excessive worrying. Worrying only makes you overthink if there are no immediate actions for you to take and you have time to think to yourself. The article doesn't address the immediate actions one takes upon getting worried and in such a situation going over to Ven to check if he is okay is indeed more intuitive than standing there and thinking. I've already mentioned that Aqua didn't know at the time how the X-Blade looked like which is by virtue of having never seen or heard about it before meeting up with Terra and Ventus at the Keyblade Graveyard. For all she knew about the situation, it was a new Keychain and a normal Keyblade can very well be weird, not that this was her immediate concern.

I understood that "Sherlock" was meant as an exaggeration but that didn't prevent me from answering.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Me calling you out on doing gish gallop isn't gonna win the discussion, it's calling out an error in the argument.

He told the organization they don't have hearts
-Lie

He told them he would help them out and give them new hearts
-Lie

He told them that Ansem went mad and abandoned them
-Lie

He kept from the organization that Xion was actually a puppet meant to replace Roxas if he ***** up
-Lie

Idk what you mean "one major lie".

You repeated your argument on the "headcanon" part so no need to re-refute.

Also no they're extremely stupid I hope you realize just because you're a researcher doesn't stop you from being gullible. You can have one of the smartest minds in the world and still get tricked. The fact that they miss having emotions didn't tip them off to "wait I have emotions" kinda proves that, the only people that you could semi-say use their logical train of thought int he organization is Demyx if he was serious to Sora about him actually having a heart and Vexen.

I don't know how you didn't notice the paradox in your own statement. They want to have emotions back because they miss emotions, so they have emotions then and no one in the KH cast noticed that one fat paradox to the entire story. If you lack emotions you would not have the capacity to "miss" having emotions. No, what you're arguing is he lost all logical train of thought since Donald and Goofy needed to remind him after he beat Demyx about helping his friends, so he clearly wasn't hyperfocused lmao.

They fade into darkness upon death + use dark powers and from what I remember deal darkness based damage with regular attacks, they clearly don't lack the element.

Self-evident concepts don't require a definition, sorry to tell you, if something doesn't have a heart it clearly doesn't have a heart and is shown as such, refer back to my previous comment, you just repeated yourself again here.

Most people that struggle to do so is because they quite literally skipped the side games that are canon, that's it. It's like watching a serialized series and after you finished season 1 skipping straight to season 3, of course then you'll call the series confusing cause you don't even know events that happened.

I could care less how many years have passed, like it's already been established Kairi has not changed in features and she's an important element to Mickey and them, the fact that he doesn't remember her is incredibly farfetched.

I don't think you get that excessive worrying not making you think logically would apply to standard worrying, since you know, the standard end is a far more lesser end. Aqua wouldn't need to know what the X-blade looks like to see that Ventus is weird, I showed a friend the scene out of context whose never seen that KH scene in his life and asked him if he would run to his friend and he said "No, dude's acting up", this is just an example btw, not a main piece of evidence.

So you refuted something that didn't exist and didn't refute the argument itself, neato.

Unnecessarily long comment is unnecessarily long.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

There's also the fact in the very scene he's speaking to Sora and co. he's trying to gain a false sense of sympathy, essentially trying to manipulate them, making the dude a straight up sociopath but sure, let's believe the sociopath on a statement that's clearly contradicted by how every nobody death fades in darkness and use dark powers.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There's also the fact in the very scene he's speaking to Sora and co. he's trying to gain a false sense of sympathy, essentially trying to manipulate them, making the dude a straight up sociopath but sure, let's believe the sociopath on a statement that's clearly contradicted by how every nobody death fades in darkness and use dark powers.

Didn't I tell you to put everything into one comment?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"Anyways no I'm going to make a second comment if I see updated stuff or if I want to add something extra because it actually notifies you when that happens versus an edit. I'll only edit if I missed a part of my sentence or I found an extra scan to the context I was talking about."
Pretty clearly gave you a hard no to that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Me calling you out on doing gish gallop isn't gonna win the discussion, it's calling out an error in the argument.

He told the organization they don't have hearts
-Lie

He told them he would help them out and give them new hearts
-Lie

He told them that Ansem went mad and abandoned them
-Lie

He kept from the organization that Xion was actually a puppet meant to replace Roxas if he ***** up
-Lie

Idk what you mean "one major lie".

You repeated your argument on the "headcanon" part so no need to re-refute.

Also no they're extremely stupid I hope you realize just because you're a researcher doesn't stop you from being gullible. You can have one of the smartest minds in the world and still get tricked. The fact that they miss having emotions didn't tip them off to "wait I have emotions" kinda proves that, the only people that you could semi-say use their logical train of thought int he organization is Demyx if he was serious to Sora about him actually having a heart and Vexen.

I don't know how you didn't notice the paradox in your own statement. They want to have emotions back because they miss emotions, so they have emotions then and no one in the KH cast noticed that one fat paradox to the entire story. If you lack emotions you would not have the capacity to "miss" having emotions. No, what you're arguing is he lost all logical train of thought since Donald and Goofy needed to remind him after he beat Demyx about helping his friends, so he clearly wasn't hyperfocused lmao.

They fade into darkness upon death + use dark powers and from what I remember deal darkness based damage with regular attacks, they clearly don't lack the element.

Self-evident concepts don't require a definition, sorry to tell you, if something doesn't have a heart it clearly doesn't have a heart and is shown as such, refer back to my previous comment, you just repeated yourself again here.

Most people that struggle to do so is because they quite literally skipped the side games that are canon, that's it. It's like watching a serialized series and after you finished season 1 skipping straight to season 3, of course then you'll call the series confusing cause you don't even know events that happened.

I could care less how many years have passed, like it's already been established Kairi has not changed in features and she's an important element to Mickey and them, the fact that he doesn't remember her is incredibly farfetched.

I don't think you get that excessive worrying not making you think logically would apply to standard worrying, since you know, the standard end is a far more lesser end. Aqua wouldn't need to know what the X-blade looks like to see that Ventus is weird, I showed a friend the scene out of context whose never seen that KH scene in his life and asked him if he would run to his friend and he said "No, dude's acting up", this is just an example btw, not a main piece of evidence.

So you refuted something that didn't exist and didn't refute the argument itself, neato.

Unnecessarily long comment is unnecessarily long.

You've misunderstood what I wanted to say but I can understand that since I anticipated that this might happen but I didn't really know how to word it better. What I said was about whether or not I was intentionally gish galopping to win the argument and not whether or not you were accusing me of it to win the argument. I know that "intentional gish galloping" wasn't what you meant but I'm pretty sure that your wording implies that sort of stuff. I wasn't accusing you of doing that in order to win the argument and I have nothing against you calling out errors in my arguments but I'd really appreciate it if you did it in a way that doesn't make it look like as if I was using dishonest discussion tactics when that was never my intention. There is also the fact that gish galopping is described on Wikipedia as "a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time". First off, I'm answering to your arguments as I understand them and there is obviously no other way to answer to someone, as such being specious is far from being my intent. Half-truths and misrepresentation imply that I'm lying and deceiving, so that is more than simply calling me out on an error in my argument.

The one major lie is the Nobodies having no hearts. Everything else like helping them to gain hearts builds up on that, so I'd consider that part of that one lie. Ansem having gone mad and abandoning them is what the other pupils told Ienzo as a child, that didn't specifically come from Xehanort/Xemnas and we don't know any other details about that not to mention that this is a rather recent bit of information from KHIII that wasn't delved on. As for Xion, he never really lied about her being a puppet, he just never mentioned it which is in a way indeed deceptive but the fact that she never had a seat among them and they always remained Organization XIII shows that he didn't really bother hiding that she was different even if he didn't tell them.

Your position relies on a verse-wide Character Induced Stupidity for everyone involved with the matter of the Nobodies which also includes people like Ansem, Mickey, Riku and Yen Sid which was kept up for a decade to make even remotely sense. Not to mention that the Organization didn't just consist out of Ansem's pupils but they also had Marluxia, Larxene, Luxord and Demyx. Roxas and Xion are understandable since they have no prior experiences and a group of people sharing the same kind of gullibility despite being researchers can be reluctantly accepted on my part. Even DiZ is excusable due to his sheer hatred and being the teacher of said group of disciples but everyone else? That's incedibly unbelievable and that's not just me arguing out of disbelief, it just straight up stops making any real sense at that point. Nobody gets called out for this supposedly canon stupidity or at least points it out either even after the reveal of Nobodies having hearts. Convincing them that they have no hearts due to having lost them is simple enough so that part is not something that indicates blind accepting. Any sign of having grown a new heart would have been surpressed as a result of conditioning themselves to believe that they've lost their emotions and are only faking them. It's kind of similar to gaslighting.

I agree that quite a number of people are struggling because of skipping games but this isn't the entire reason for why some people say that Kingdom Hearts is complicated. This article along with the comments are further evidence for that.

I don't recall something like Kairi's features having been established to have not changed. Aqua took a look at her necklace to confirm if she really was the little girl she encountered and found that incredible. Mickey was surprised as well. What they established back in Birth by Sleep was that they could sense the light in her and that she must be extraordinary. That's not enough to remember her much better than any random little girl you encounter on the street which Kairi basically was for Aqua and Mickey at the time and Mickey probably didn't think that it was likely to encounter her again.

You showed your friend the scene out of context. In context, they were in the middle of a conflict with Xehanort, Aqua had a fight with Braig, was knocked out by Vanitas after that, and the last time she saw Ventus before that his body was frozen and he could hardly move. She was worried about Ventus the moment she woke up and specifically looked for him. Is it really implausible for her to run up to him the moment she spots him?

The comment is long since you bring up quite a number of points, so it getting rather long is a given if I want to address them all. Is that something I shouldn't do?

"Anyways no I'm going to make a second comment if I see updated stuff or if I want to add something extra because it actually notifies you when that happens versus an edit. I'll only edit if I missed a part of my sentence or I found an extra scan to the context I was talking about."
Pretty clearly gave you a hard no to that.

I didn't even change anything between the two comments of yours being posted and I only get notifications about there being new posts. I don't get notifications for each and every single post. Even if I were to get notifications for every single comment it would be superfluous since I'd get to see everything that has changed since the last time I looked at the threat anyway. How does the "updated stuff" and the notifications even matter in this specific situation?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"I don't know how you didn't notice the paradox in your own statement. They want to have emotions back because they miss emotions, so they have emotions then and no one in the KH cast noticed that one fat paradox to the entire story. If you lack emotions you would not have the capacity to "miss" having emotions. No, what you're arguing is he lost all logical train of thought since Donald and Goofy needed to remind him after he beat Demyx about helping his friends, so he clearly wasn't hyperfocused lmao.

They fade into darkness upon death + use dark powers and from what I remember deal darkness based damage with regular attacks, they clearly don't lack the element.

Self-evident concepts don't require a definition, sorry to tell you, if something doesn't have a heart it clearly doesn't have a heart and is shown as such, refer back to my previous comment, you just repeated yourself again here."

Okay, I forgot to properly address that part of your comment, so I'll do that now in a new comment since I can't tell whether or not you are currently online and what you are doing right now.

Nobodies missing their emotions and wanting them back due to remembering them is part of the basic concept of Nobodies as we are introduced to it in KHII, so ascribing a desire for emotions to them despite them being otherwise supposedly emotionless isn't too farfetched. At the time Sora's mind was more on the organisation and I was referring with "hyperfocused" to his overall goal in KHII of taking care of the threat that Organization posed and reuniting with Riku to return to Destiny Islands.

Could you give a scan or source for darkness based damage with regular attacks? I would appreciate that.

Even things that are self-evident have definitions and the definition you give doesn't narrow down at all. If you really want to argue that only living beings have hearts, then you need to do so properly which also means that you have to properly define what you mean.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

A lot of these from what I see are more verbose arguments of the same thing, there are some new arguments but frankly, I don't see a need to reply, we're going in circles so I think we can just get mods input.


Also off topic thing but if we're discussing AP next thread I have various questions regarding the High 4-C tiering.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

A lot of these from what I see are more verbose arguments of the same thing, there are some new arguments but frankly, I don't see a need to reply, we're going in circles so I think we can just get mods input.


Also off topic thing but if we're discussing AP next thread I have various questions regarding the High 4-C tiering.

"Could you give a scan or source for darkness based damage with regular attacks? I would appreciate that."

What about this?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I said from what I remember, so I don't have a direct scan/source, you're welcome to check the game's files though, might be something there.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Update: K looked on some forums

Which enemies in KH2 actually use Dark Damage? - Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX

For Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Which enemies in KH2 actually use Dark Damage?".

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

Xemnas and co. have dark element attacks, so not every nobody but some organization members do have it

Dark (element)

Dark is a recurring element that appears in the Kingdom Hearts series. It is generally opposed to Light.

www.khwiki.com

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Update: K looked on some forums

Which enemies in KH2 actually use Dark Damage? - Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX

For Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Which enemies in KH2 actually use Dark Damage?".

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

Xemnas and co. have dark element attacks, so not every nobody but some organization members do have it

Dark (element)

Dark is a recurring element that appears in the Kingdom Hearts series. It is generally opposed to Light.

www.khwiki.com

The list doesn't tell me anything new in regards to the relation of Nobodies and darkness. At the very least darkness attacks aren't something that Nobodies have by default as far as I can tell. Thanks for looking it up and linking it.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Still goes back to my point tho, it's logically impossible for them to lack something they can use.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Still goes back to my point tho, it's logically impossible for them to lack something they can use.

Weren't they supposed to lack darkness as part of their being and not as a power though? Being able to use something doesn't mean that it's part of your being and I guess that the characters in the series think the same since even the Nobodies using the darkness powers don't seem to see any contradictions with that.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Nehz, if you literally lacked the concept of something why would you suddenly be able to use that concept in your attacks unless you had it. Esepcially since how magic works is through your own energy.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I’m not the concept of Punching or made of it, but I can sure smack someone

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I’m not the concept of Punching or made of it, but I can sure smack someone

I think you're memeing but just incase

You fall under it's concept by throwing the punch you don't lack the concept of punching

What they're trying to argue is nobodies lack the concept of darkness yet they actively show to be able to use darkness attacks and their death is them fading into darkness.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Nehz, if you literally lacked the concept of something why would you suddenly be able to use that concept in your attacks unless you had it. Esepcially since how magic works is through your own energy.

While this is indeed how magic works, that energy can be used for all sorts of spells and isn't necessarily something associated with darkness by itself.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"So you refuted something that didn't exist and didn't refute the argument itself, neato." (#163)

I noticed that I hadn't given an answer to this part of one of your prior comments, so I'll answer it in yet another comment. You don't have to answer to this if you don't want to for whatever reason, I just want to put this out there.

The exaggeration was part of your argument as you worded it and as such existed, and I responded in kind. The way I see it, my response remains valid even if you were to replace "Sherlock" with intuitively smart. Recognising contradictory evidence shown in front of you multiple times isn't something that requires someone intuitively smart.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

While this is indeed how magic works, that energy can be used for all sorts of spells and isn't necessarily something associated with darkness by itself.

If you admit this is how it works then you also admit that they logically cannot lack the concept of darkness, also again, they fade to darkness upon death.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If you admit this is how it works then you also admit that they logically cannot lack the concept of darkness, also again, they fade to darkness upon death.

I agreed with magic using energy and I also said that said energy can be used for all sorts of purposes. It isn't something that is necessarily affiliated with darkness. The ability to make use of darkness for attacks is nothing inherent for Nobodies and it's not like as if the Nobodies who do make use of darkness for their attacks are calling upon darkness within themselves. The characters in the series don't see Nobodies using darkness as a contradiction.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agreed with magic using energy and I also said that said energy can be used for all sorts of purposes. It isn't something that is necessarily affiliated with darkness. The ability to make use of darkness for attacks is nothing inherent for Nobodies and it's not like as if the Nobodies who do make use of darkness for their attacks are calling upon darkness within themselves. The characters in the series don't see Nobodies using darkness as a contradiction.

This is just repeating your point but longer, if you agree with this you by extension agree they cannot lack this element. Also no all dark attacks are via calling upon the darkness in yourself, it's not like the force, magic is internal energy in KH. Princesses of Hearts can't use literally any darkness attack due to this reason.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You're also repeatedly ignoring that they fade into darkness upon death.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

GiverOfThePeace said:
This is just repeating your point but longer, if you agree with this you by extension agree they cannot lack this element. Also no all dark attacks are via calling upon the darkness in yourself, it's not like the force, magic is internal energy in KH. Princesses of Hearts can't use literally any darkness attack due to this reason.

Was that stated to be the case? Nobody seems to have seen any contradiction with that and the Nobodies, so if it was and it is something known to the characters, then that would be pretty weird.

GiverOfThePeace said:
You're also repeatedly ignoring that they fade into darkness upon death.

That's how they die and nobody in the series sees any contradictions with that at any point. Namine is shown to dissolve into light when reuniting with Kairi and Roxas has also been shown to dissolve into light, so that has probably a lot to do with the specific circumstances. Have we ever had any statements about Nobodies dissolving into darkness or light that elaborates on that?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I care less what the characters see as a contradiction or not, fact of the matter is that these are clear contradictions to Xemnas single statement, hiding behind the character snot calling something out can be used in various games, take MGS 1 as an example.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I care less what the characters see as a contradiction or not, fact of the matter is that these are clear contradictions to Xemnas single statement, hiding behind the character snot calling something out can be used in various games, take MGS 1 as an example.

What about statements?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wiki takes feats as > statements from what I've seen, and clear feats of them using powers that they're supposedly lacking a concept of contradicts the statement entirely, the characters themselves not noticing it really doesn't matter to common sense.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised arguments and what is the staff consensus here?

 

[Antvasima]

@The_real_cal_howard @ThePerpetual @Reppuzan @Dragonmasterxyz @Matthew_Schroeder @Mr._Bambu

Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with a lot of the current KH profiles, specially the exaggerated backwards scaling and the assumptions of stuff being "conceptual" from a few lines.

 

[Bobsican]

What did I miss this time? Sorry that I wasn't active, once again, I was too busy with school to be able to give a proper reply.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Wiki takes feats as > statements from what I've seen, and clear feats of them using powers that they're supposedly lacking a concept of contradicts the statement entirely, the characters themselves not noticing it really doesn't matter to common sense.

What about statements about all darkness attacks being via calling upon darkness in yourself? Magic being internal energy doesn't really support there being darkness in a person solely on its own since that energy by itself isn't darkness.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What are the summarised arguments and what is the staff consensus here?

There are quite a number of people who disagree with the idea of the heart being conceptual, I and GiverOfThePeace had an extended discussion over one of his arguments and now we are waiting for Bobsican to make a reply to GiverOfThePeace's arguments that I summarised for him.

Something similar to that with some differences.

My summary of GiverOfThePeace's arguments: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kingd...he-conceptual-crts.107951/page-2#post-3354744

Bobsican's answer: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kingd...he-conceptual-crts.107951/page-2#post-3392844

GiverOfThePeace's answer: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kingd...he-conceptual-crts.107951/page-2#post-3393941

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What did I miss this time? Sorry that I wasn't active, once again, I was too busy with school to be able to give a proper reply.

Most of it was me and GiverOfThePeace arguing over his arguments.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I disagree with a lot of the current KH profiles, specially the exaggerated backwards scaling and the assumptions of stuff being "conceptual" from a few lines.

With the exception of the "conceptual" part, this doesn't really have much to do with the topic, so please put this in another thread with a more elaborate explanation.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

What are the summarised arguments and what is the staff consensus here?

I think it's been agreed upon by even the OP himself that there's not enough here for conceptual

Law Manipulation resistance also needs to be removed

So far with this thread it's also been pretty much agreed nobodies don't actually have non-existent physiology

So far what's being argued is that nobodies lacking darkness is legit or not
I'm saying it isn't because they use constant darkness element based attacks and their death is fading into darkness

Nehz is trying to say it is legit because the cast never questions them doing it what I mentioned.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

What about statements about all darkness attacks being via calling upon darkness in yourself? Magic being internal energy doesn't really support there being darkness in a person solely on its own since that energy by itself isn't darkness.

I don't get what you mean by this? You literally can only use darkness attacks by calling upon the darkness in yourself, that's how Sora is able to use anti form, cause he was once a heartless.
" Famitsu Interview;
Interviewer: "Is AntiForm originated from when Sora got turned into a Heartless?" / Tetsuya Nomura: "Story-wise, yes. Drives are very strong so AntiForm exists as a side-effect of using too much power. System-wise, I wanted to create something strong but troublesome.""

Notice how anyone with true anger or hatred has an aura of darkness fume around them like Hans in Frozen's world, it's internal energy used.

No, it completely does, if you have an internal energy source that literally uses darkness based attacks, you have darkness within you, show me one Princess of Light that can use darkness based attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

I think it's been agreed upon by even the OP himself that there's not enough here for conceptual

Law Manipulation resistance also needs to be removed

So far with this thread it's also been pretty much agreed nobodies don't actually have non-existent physiology

So far what's being argued is that nobodies lacking darkness is legit or not
I'm saying it isn't because they use constant darkness element based attacks and their death is fading into darkness

Nehz is trying to say it is legit because the cast never questions them doing it what I mentioned.

Okay. You can probably apply the changes that have been decided then.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't get what you mean by this? You literally can only use darkness attacks by calling upon the darkness in yourself, that's how Sora is able to use anti form, cause he was once a heartless.
" Famitsu Interview;
Interviewer: "Is AntiForm originated from when Sora got turned into a Heartless?" / Tetsuya Nomura: "Story-wise, yes. Drives are very strong so AntiForm exists as a side-effect of using too much power. System-wise, I wanted to create something strong but troublesome.""

Notice how anyone with true anger or hatred has an aura of darkness fume around them like Hans in Frozen's world, it's internal energy used.

No, it completely does, if you have an internal energy source that literally uses darkness based attacks, you have darkness within you, show me one Princess of Light that can use darkness based attacks.

What you mention here is the origin of AntiForm and the fact that anger and hatred can generate a dark aura. That isn't the same as a statement that all darkness attacks make use of internal darkness, it just makes clear that internal darkness can lead to darkness related phenomena. The internal energy source is used for all sorts of things and among them are darkness related attacks. The energy itself isn't darkness though. The same logic can be applied to any other kind of attack. For example, being able to use fire magic doesn't mean that there is fire inside of you since the internal energy used for that magic isn't fire.