Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Conceptual CRTs

[Bobsican]

Uhhh... I really think more staff input is needed.
As for the Nobody stuff...
1: KH doing this is unfounded
2: The idea of Nobodies is far older than Xemnas as Heartless have appeared since Union X
3: From the above, Yen Sid's statements are reliable as he comes from around that era (far before Xehanort even made Xemnas, "Yen Sid: "There was a time when I walked the path of the Keyblade Master alongside Eraqus and Xehanort. But the three of us have gone our separate ways.""), and there's nothing to support him being unreliable for this

As for Dream Eaters being beings of Darkness... Yen Sid: "You'll recall, in your first journey, that you brought many worlds back from the darkness- but some never returned completely. They still sleep, cut off from all outside channels. Not even the Heartless can enter. But these Sleeping Worlds are said to have their own manner of darkness. They are called "Dream Eaters," and there are two kinds- "Nightmares," which devour happy dreams- and benevolent "Spirits," which consume the Nightmares. The Dream Eaters will guide you, just as the Heartless once guided you, to the Keyhole you seek at the heart of each world."

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Okay. You can probably apply the changes that have been decided then.

I've removed law manipulation from all subsequent profiles.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

What you mention here is the origin of AntiForm and the fact that anger and hatred can generate a dark aura. That isn't the same as a statement that all darkness attacks make use of internal darkness, it just makes clear that internal darkness can lead to darkness related phenomena. The internal energy source is used for all sorts of things and among them are darkness related attacks. The energy itself isn't darkness though. The same logic can be applied to any other kind of attack. For example, being able to use fire magic doesn't mean that there is fire inside of you since the internal energy used for that magic isn't fire.

All you did here was try to re-word around the plain fact that darkness based attacks are internal. So like, what are you trying to argue here? The example for fire is a false equivalence since it's not an actual concept in verse that a being must have in order to use. Refer to princesses of heart and how they cannot use any darkness based attack because they have no darkness inside of them.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Uhhh... I really think more staff input is needed.
As for the Nobody stuff...
1: KH doing this is unfounded
2: The idea of Nobodies is far older than Xemnas as Heartless have appeared since Union X
3: From the above, Yen Sid's statements are reliable as he comes from around that era (far before Xehanort even made Xemnas, "Yen Sid: "There was a time when I walked the path of the Keyblade Master alongside Eraqus and Xehanort. But the three of us have gone our separate ways.""), and there's nothing to support him being unreliable for this

As for Dream Eaters being beings of Darkness... Yen Sid: "You'll recall, in your first journey, that you brought many worlds back from the darkness- but some never returned completely. They still sleep, cut off from all outside channels. Not even the Heartless can enter. But these Sleeping Worlds are said to have their own manner of darkness. They are called "Dream Eaters," and there are two kinds- "Nightmares," which devour happy dreams- and benevolent "Spirits," which consume the Nightmares. The Dream Eaters will guide you, just as the Heartless once guided you, to the Keyhole you seek at the heart of each world."

How are Yen Sid's statements more reliable then a very plot twist that is one of the major plot points for the next game? KH doing what is unfounded now? You didn't specify. You're not arguing here. Also there is something to support him being unreliable, Xemnas' very twist reveal.

That's not what I asked you whatsoever. I asked you where is it stated that they lack light.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I've removed law manipulation from all subsequent profiles.

You've put for some reason something about a Curse Medaillon in Sora's KHI tab. Cursed Medaillons are in KHII and the curse of the Underwolrd is also in KHII. The item that protects from the Underworld's curse is the Olympus Stone.

 

[Bobsican]

Next game? Nobodies aren't brought up that much (if at all) in Re:Coded, but that's besides the point. Yen Sid is far older than Xemnas (As shown with his quote showcasing that he indeed has known Xehanort and Eraqus before they even were Keyblade Masters), meaning that he would be more than aware if Xemnas was making something up, therefore a Nobody isn't an "species" he made up, which is consistent with the lore of the series as Nobodies are derivated only from Heartless, so to say that a Nobody has never happened even though the mechanics point to it being something as old as Heartless is simply not the case.

Oh, and for the "unfounded" thing, I meant for the lore that's added in the journals for all games after KHII.

And Dream Eaters are being of darkness out of the reliable quote I showcased before, they are as much darkness as Heartless are.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You've put for some reason something about a Curse Medaillon in Sora's KHI tab. Cursed Medaillons are in KHII and the curse of the Underwolrd is also in KHII. The item that protects from the Underworld's curse is the Olympus Stone.

Then that can be moved to KH 2 I didn't see the law manip resistance brought up again so I just assumed it was put in the game where it first got noted.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Then that can be moved to KH 2 I didn't see the law manip resistance brought up again so I just assumed it was put in the game where it first got noted.

Well, the Curse Medaillon should also be replaced with the Olympus Stone.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Next game? Nobodies aren't brought up that much (if at all) in Re:Coded, but that's besides the point. Yen Sid is far older than Xemnas (As shown with his quote showcasing that he indeed has known Xehanort and Eraqus before they even were Keyblade Masters), meaning that he would be more than aware if Xemnas was making something up, therefore a Nobody isn't an "species" he made up, which is consistent with the lore of the series as Nobodies are derivated only from Heartless, so to say that a Nobody has never happened even though the mechanics point to it being something as old as Heartless is simply not the case.

Where did you get Re:Coded at all out of my statement? The very plot twist is obvs Dream Drops Distance and next game is KH 3, no clue where you got Re:Coded from.

You just repeated yourself here. All he brought up was how Nobodies work, cool, the not existing part was false as shown by DDD. I also never said nobodies have never happened, strawman, I said the way they work, AKA their NEP is false. They exist.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Well, the Curse Medaillon should also be replaced with the Olympus Stone.

Replace that too then

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Replace that too then

Already done.

 

[Bobsican]

Yen Sid is the one that states that Nobodies don't exist out of being rejected by both light and darkness in the first place, and that was before he actually met Xemnas, he even predicted that his demise would lead into the full Xehanort coming back. It's not even an stretch either with the other lore backing it up, Xemnas saying that he lied to Organization XIII on them not having hearts doesn't mean that this was always the case (let alone to "all" Nobodies), hearts can regrow and so on as said before.
He even states that he didn't still have a heart, it wasn't until KHIII when he actually got one respectively.

Re:Coded was released between KHII and KH3D, but eh, that's not the main argument anyways, we never cared about author intent.

Also, please reload this page and read my past reply, I updated it

 

[Nehz_XZX]

All you did here was try to re-word around the plain fact that darkness based attacks are internal. So like, what are you trying to argue here? The example for fire is a false equivalence since it's not an actual concept in verse that a being must have in order to use. Refer to princesses of heart and how they cannot use any darkness based attack because they have no darkness inside of them.

So, darkness being a concept means that darkness related attacks rely on internal darkness?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

That's not what he says at all.

If you read the actual cutscene it notes they don't exist because they're a being whose heart is gone and have faded from existence.

Hell if anything he notes them as empty shells destined to return to darkness


I see nowhere where it's stated that Yen Sid says that. I see a random wiki article on Nobodies that says that with no reference source.

What does a plot twist in verse that everyone takes seriously have to do with author's intent?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So, darkness being a concept means that darkness related attacks rely on internal darkness?

Yes, I repeat, Princesses of Light cannot turn into heartless because they have no darkness within them and cannot use darkness attacks due to that. Yen Sid even further supports darkness is internal

 

[Bobsican]

Please put timestamps directly on some text (example) over just pasting the entire link raw, otherwise they just become a thumbnail for the entire video linked and the timestamp is practically unusable.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Oh, and for the "unfounded" thing, I meant for the lore that's added in the journals for all games after KHII.

And Dream Eaters are being of darkness out of the reliable quote I showcased before, they are as much darkness as Heartless are.

The lore that comes from Jiminy?

Bob what is your last point talking about I didn't ask you how they are beings of darkness I asked you where is it stated that they lack light, actually read the reply and answer the question that was asked

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kingdom-hearts-re-minder-of-the-conceptual-crts.107951/post-3393941

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Please put timestamps directly on some text (example) over just pasting the entire link raw, otherwise they just become a thumbnail for the entire video linked and the timestamp is practically unusable.

I clicked on the video and it sent me to the exact timestamp, so idk what's going on with your platform, irregardless, you know this scene, just skip to Yen Sid talking about nobodies, literally nowhere does he mention they don't exist because of being rejected by light and darkness that's objective headcanon.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yes, I repeat, Princesses of Light cannot turn into heartless because they have no darkness within them and cannot use darkness attacks due to that. Yen Sid even further supports darkness is internal

Turning into a Heartless because of internal darkness isn't something I have questioned. The Princesses of Light not turning into Heartless due to having no darkness isn't something that I questioned either. As for them being incapable of using darkness attacks, I don't think that anything like that was ever shown or stated, at the very least I don't remember anything like that. It does make sense in a way though if that is the case.

What I want to know is where it was made clear that all darkness attacks rely on internal darkness? That is not a matter of whether or not darkness exists in a person, it's a matter of darkness attacks relying on darkness in a person.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I clicked on the video and it sent me to the exact timestamp, so idk what's going on with your platform, irregardless, you know this scene, just skip to Yen Sid talking about nobodies, literally nowhere does he mention they don't exist because of being rejected by light and darkness that's objective headcanon.

It also sent me to the exact time stamp.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Turning into a Heartless because of internal darkness isn't something I have questioned. The Princesses of Light not turning into Heartless due to having no darkness isn't something that I questioned either. As for them being incapable of using darkness attacks, I don't think that anything like that was ever shown or stated, at the very least I don't remember anything like that. It does make sense in a way though if that is the case.

What I want to know is where it was made clear that all darkness attacks rely on internal darkness? That is not a matter of whether or not darkness exists in a person, it's a matter of darkness attacks relying on darkness in a person.

I never said you questioned either of those, irrelevant point to bring up, it shows that internal darkness is a concept and that attacks come from that. It doesn't need to be shown or stated, common sense is a thing, specifically the very people that lack darkness can't use darkness attacks yet even heroes like Sora can use darkness based moves. Hmmm, I wonder why.

Common sense yet again, unless you can show me someone who doesn't have darkness within them using a darkness attack.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I never said you questioned either of those, irrelevant point to bring up, it shows that internal darkness is a concept and that attacks come from that. It doesn't need to be shown or stated, common sense is a thing, specifically the very people that lack darkness can't use darkness attacks yet even heroes like Sora can use darkness based moves. Hmmm, I wonder why.

Common sense yet again, unless you can show me someone who doesn't have darkness within them using a darkness attack.

You brought these up when I wanted to know where it was stated that darkness attacks rely on internal darkness. The video in your comment wasn't about darkness attacks. Where was it specifically stated or shown that the people who lack darkness cannot use darkness attacks? While we indeed haven't seen someone like that use darkness attacks, that isn't the same as them being fundamentally incapable of it.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It doesn't need to talk about darkness attacks, common sense. It literally proves darkness is an internal energy source and Sora's anti form is literally based off the darkness inside.

Why would it need to be specifically stated, are we really about to drop all forms of logical thinking and reasoning? If you lacked a concept you thus don't have access to that concept by innate means. Yes it is Nehz, you simply saying it's not isn't a debunk, we see virtually every person that use darkness related moves happen to have darkness in them and explanations for why people like Sora can pull anti form was because they were once a heartless, like no I'm not even playing this game, it's clear as day they're fundamentally incapable of it.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It doesn't need to talk about darkness attacks, common sense. It literally proves darkness is an internal energy source and Sora's anti form is literally based off the darkness inside.

Why would it need to be specifically stated, are we really about to drop all forms of logical thinking and reasoning? If you lacked a concept you thus don't have access to that concept by innate means. Yes it is Nehz, you simply saying it's not isn't a debunk, we see virtually every person that use darkness related moves happen to have darkness in them and explanations for why people like Sora can pull anti form was because they were once a heartless, like no I'm not even playing this game, it's clear as day they're fundamentally incapable of it.

The video shows that darkness is something that can be found inside people and that they can turn into Heartless because of that. It doesn't elaborate anything about darkness as an energy source. AntiForm being based on internal darkness doesn't mean that all darkness attacks are from internal darkness since it is simply an instance of how a form of Sora works.

Well, a lack of darkness means that you don't have it. In this case, there is no darkness inside. What is inside is an energy source, which isn't the same as darkness since it is simply energy fuel for all sorts of spells, that can be used for darkness attacks. Well, other than the Princesses of Light and Ventus, no heart has solely light, so every darkness user having darkness in their heart doesn't mean much in that context.

If we are talking about logical thinking and reasoning, then I have a few things to say for that. The statement is that darkness attacks are dependent of internal darkness. How do you prove a statement like that? Well, one possiblity is a statement from someone who is responsible for the setting, like Nomura or someone else working on the games. Another possibility is a statement from the game that isn't questioned within the story. Yet another possibility is someone without darkness trying to use darkness attacks and explicitly failing because of their lack of darkness. Merely instances of someone who uses darkness having internal darkness are not enough to prove something in a strictly logical way since that doesn't exclude the possibility of future instances where that isn't the case. The rarity of hearts without darkness also means that this cannot be used for statistical correlation either.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So you're now trying to say there's different kinds of darkness, would like to see proof of this ever shown throughout the series. Ok Nehz show me an instance of a darkness attack that's not internal please with proof that it's an external attack.

You repeated yourself here. The entire reason you can use the energy source of darkness is due to having darkness. Nehz your entire point here relies on someone without darkness in their heart using darkness, so it does mean much in that context because that shows the only few that don't have darkness based attacks are those without darkness in their hearts.

This is just... no. Rarity of hearts can be used for statistical correlation, unironically it shows that the actual people that exist without darkness in their heart specifically can't use darkness, abnormalities are very important to statistical correlations, what are you talking about here, this is blatant ignorance on statistical correlation. Statistical correlation couldn't be applied here if it was one whole person being used, but these are abnormalities in a quantitative number you're saying are unable to be used.

Correlation Analysis - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, Ventus, someone with no darkness in his Heart, can use darkness based techniques even without the Vanitas bond.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Read your own article you linked.

Wrath of Darkness (闇への流出 Yami e no Ryūshutsu?, lit. "Bleeding into Darkness") is a technique in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix. It is randomly inserted into the hero's deck while fighting No Heart. Wrath of Darkness allows the user to fire a single orb of darkness at an opponent. If it hits an opponent, it deals minor damage, but also inflicts a status effect on the user.

It's not an innate ability Ventus has, it's an ability forcefully given to him that he removes out of himself by using it. All you showed was Ventus can momentarily have darkness put into him and he has to push it back out. Something no one contested since that's already been shown to be a thing with Ventus due to the entire concept of Vanitas.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a more extensive summary of the issues that still need to be decided here, I can ask several staff members to comment here afterwards.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Issues at the moment is regarding Nobodies non-existent physiology and them lacking light and darkness.

My argument is that it's a single statement from Xemnas, who is a known liar/manipulator who said it in the same scene he was trying to gain sympathy from the keyblade warriors, I also mentioned how nobodies consistently use darkness based attacks which are internal based energy as characters like Sora literally need to achieve anti form via the darkness they have inside from once being a heartless and such and that characters in verse that outright lack any darkness can't use darkness related attacks whatsoever, the one counter argument they tried to use was Ventus being able to use a darkness power but their own link outright states it's a power given for a brief moment by a heartless boss that once used it's gone from your command deck and induces a status effect, it's also pretty clear you're not supposed to get hit with the attack that gives you it since if you eventually get it too many times you get the doom status effect which is insta death. My argument for nobodies not existing is that the very statement that starts that trend comes from Yen Sid where he tries to say they don't exist due to losing their heart and fading from existence, he also states they don't have emotions and such and dream drop distances very twist reveal is that it was all a lie and they do have hearts and do have emotions, thus I don't see NEP as legitimate.

Their argument falls under that darkness usage isn't an argument because characters in verse never point it out as weird, that Yen Sid should have more knowledge then Xemnas as he's older and been around longer, and that there's not enough instances to prove darkness attacks are internal. Also that Xemnas wasn't lying because he has no reason to. Seems far shorter but it's mostly just them stating the statements in this case are correct.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_real_cal_howard @ThePerpetual @Reppuzan @Dragonmasterxyz @Matthew_Schroeder @Mr._Bambu

What do you think about this?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So you're now trying to say there's different kinds of darkness, would like to see proof of this ever shown throughout the series. Ok Nehz show me an instance of a darkness attack that's not internal please with proof that it's an external attack.

You repeated yourself here. The entire reason you can use the energy source of darkness is due to having darkness. Nehz your entire point here relies on someone without darkness in their heart using darkness, so it does mean much in that context because that shows the only few that don't have darkness based attacks are those without darkness in their hearts.

This is just... no. Rarity of hearts can be used for statistical correlation, unironically it shows that the actual people that exist without darkness in their heart specifically can't use darkness, abnormalities are very important to statistical correlations, what are you talking about here, this is blatant ignorance on statistical correlation. Statistical correlation couldn't be applied here if it was one whole person being used, but these are abnormalities in a quantitative number you're saying are unable to be used.

Correlation Analysis - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

If it's about darkness that isn't inside people, then there is plenty. There is the Realm of Darkness, the darkness in the Lanes between, the darkness of the Corridors of Darkness and then there is this entity called darkness from Union X and Re:Mind. As for darkness attacks, instances of darkness related abilities being because of internal darkness don't prove that this is the case for all of them.

The only people who only have light in their hearts are Ventus and Princesses of Heart who have plenty of reasons for not using darkness attacks that have nothing to do with them lacking darkness. After he got separated from Vanitas, Ventus was trained by Eraqus, so of course he wouldn't have darkness attacks. The Princesses of Heart in KHI were non-combatants, so they wouldn't have darkness attacks because of them not fighting at all. The New Seven Hearts we got introduced to in KHIII are characters that didn't have darkness attacks in their original stories and never went beyond the scope of their world, so they wouldn't have darkness attacks either. Kairi wasn't trained by someone who uses darkness attacks and the focus of her training was to make her a capable Keyblade Wielder which wasn't really related to using darkness attacks. Considering all this, how is it statistically relevant that they don't use darkness? Isn't that too small of a group for statistical purposes to begin with? It's not like as if everyone except Ventus and the Princesses of Light is using darkness attacks and I'm pretty sure that there are more people who don't have darkness attacks than people who do even among those who have darkness in their heart.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

That's not what I asked you shouldn't have made that assumption. What you implied was there's different types of darkness all together, obviously there's darkness not inside of people, it's a concept that exists everywhere and makes up reality, never argued against this point. This is repeating yourself, I already refuted this.

You just repeated yourself here again, and no that's not too small. I explained why that's in my previous comment.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That's not what I asked you shouldn't have made that assumption. What you implied was there's different types of darkness all together, obviously there's darkness not inside of people, it's a concept that exists everywhere and makes up reality, never argued against this point. This is repeating yourself, I already refuted this.

You just repeated yourself here again, and no that's not too small. I explained why that's in my previous comment.

What types of darkness are you referring to then?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Darkness as an energy source and the conceptual darkness being two different things since even if you weren't trying to say that your comment on the matter basically said that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Darkness as an energy source and the conceptual darkness being two different things since even if you weren't trying to say that your comment on the matter basically said that.

You said that the video you linked proves that darkness is an internal energy source and that is what I'm referring to with "darkness as an energy source". What I saw and heard once I clicked on your video was an explanation of how darkness inside someone can turn someone into a Heartless.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You treated it as two different things, it's an internal energy source used for attacks. Until I can see any proof otherwise.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You treated it as two different things, it's an internal energy source used for attacks. Until I can see any proof otherwise.

Isn't that your interpretation? Your talk about types of darkness confused me since I didn't really address something like that or at the very least didn't really meant to. Conceptual darkness as an energy source? Sure, why not, but how does your video show that this is the case for all darkness attacks?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Isn't that your interpretation? Your talk about types of darkness confused me since I didn't really address something like that or at the very least didn't really meant to. Conceptual darkness as an energy source? Sure, why not, but how does your video show that this is the case for all darkness attacks?

No, that's what you treated it as even if that's not what you meant to do.

I explained this in the comments above and how darkness attacks work in general adding on with people in-verse w/o darkness that aren't able to use the attack. Show me a single character in KH that does darkness attacks w/o this.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No, that's what you treated it as even if that's not what you meant to do.

I explained this in the comments above and how darkness attacks work in general adding on with people in-verse w/o darkness that aren't able to use the attack. Show me a single character in KH that does darkness attacks w/o this.

Well, that's more what you derived from my words than how I treated it as far as I can tell but since it never was an actual topic that I wanted to begin we can just drop that.

So, AntiForm and people turning into Heartless because of their darkness means that all darkness attacks use the darkness inside a person's heart? And Ventus and all the Princesses of Heart are fundamentally incapable of using darkness attacks due to having never used any regardless of any other reasons they have for not having them? Do I understand you right like that or what are you exactly referring to?