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Fukkatsu no L - Return of Frieza'sFinalForm_Lavos vs Goddess Madoka (Redux)

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FateAlbane

FateAlbane

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...And apparently, this is now happening.

Context: So, as it turns out Frieza's Cousin got a few upgrades on the unkillable department and much like it does all the time in its homeverse, came back stronger Probably because Madoka forgot to use a bunch of macguffins to make sure it would stay dead. It now has Mid-Godly regen on top of a more broken type of (non)existence.

This calls for a rematch. Will our Goddess Madoka kill it for real this time? Or will the Diehard Cosmic (and possibly Nihilist) Parasite prevail this time?

Rules: Same as the last thread. Speed is equalized, other than that anything goes. Madoka gets Serge as a supporter if it takes too long.

Goddess
Stop that! Stop... Not... Dying! Wait... Who's that guy? Where did he come from, I don't even... I'm confused. Explain?

DV26
 
Reading it, it seems Lavos now has the durability and regen and BFR to literally send her to non-existence. I don't know if he can be killed, he just seems too versatile and hax'd.
 
Mmm, how does this change anything?

The reason Madoka one originally was due to being able to incapitate Lavos conceptually (Not through sheer ap so regen addition doesn't matter), and Lavos wouldn't be able to bfr Madoka if he just bfrs her avatar (ie, lavos would have to know madoka is a conceptual entity to begin with).
 
Actually there were more factors and Madoka ultimately won by erasing it, not by incapacitating it.

TD Lavos now can regenerate from Nothingness and is a non-existent entity from the start, which ultimately makes the arguments for the previous victory moot as reducing it to nothing won't do a thing to it.
 
What you talking about? The only one who remotely argued that was Kaltias, but it was an a devil's avodicate, assuming concept manipulation would count as a regular attack.
 
I debated in favor of and agreed to the argument that after a long while Madoka would eventually manage to put down Lavos through her Conceptual Powers in much the same way she did with purging the concept of witches from the Mutliverse.

That was the main argument that was agreed by people who went for reasons above later, too.

That point is now irrelevant because purging something to nothingness that is already purged from the start doesn't matter.
 
I think you must have misunderstood Kaltias' and my argument then, we only argued incaptitation.
 
yes please, because most of them are just reasons above (which kal and mine were incapitate to begin with)
 
Me: "Could she work something with her Conceptual Manip to deal with Lavos?"

Kaltias: According to Azzy, erasing a concept from the multiverse doesn't mean that you can straight up erase another 2-A conceptually. But it could incapacitate Lavos. Maybe.

Me: Well, If that's what Azzy said, then I probably can't say for sure. (...) Not sure. I'd like to go with SD's data reasoning but considering that if you try to beat TD with anything other than using the Chrono Cross and all those shenanigans you get hit in the face with a bad ending, I'll wait for some more input on this one. (...) Considering endless timelines... Madoka would be stuck killing it over and over and over, if we went by the Incapacitation logic.

Kaltias: Well even if we don't count the concept manipulation as hax but only as a regular attack, it does have Multiversal+ AoE. Maybe this could help her dealing with the infinite number of replacements?

...More discussion later...

Me: While Madoka's best bet as I see it would be some Conceptual powers.

Like I said above however, if we can't say for sure that Madoka would pull a full-on erasure against it, we can't say for sure that it would absorb her either. Though I still believe she might actually pull it off.

Me: Then for me it's either

A. Can't say for sure who wins, go for Inconclusive because of some of the reasons above.

B. Madoka actually pulls it because of the other reasons above (Note out of the quote: Erasure I had previously mentioned).

COB: But yeah by Fate's words kinda siding with Madoka slightly (Note out of the quote: Erasure I had debated for)

Cal: Also, isn't Madoka's concept manipulation stupidly specific?

Kaltias: Not really. Her wish was to erase the concept of witches, but it doesn't mean that she is limited only to that particular one.

Kaltias: ^ Basically what SD said, plus the fact the big thing about the concept manipulation in this case isn't the ability per se, as it wouldn't be potent enough to kill Lavos, but the fact that it has multiversal+ AoE, meaning that it gives her a way (albeit painfully slow) to deal with all of Lavos's replacements.

Also i'm switching my vote to Meguca for the various reasons that I gave throughout the thread.

Me: If Madoka is a Concept Engraved in the Universe, needless to say that if all the timelines she is in get devoured TD would eventually put her down too.

As I see it, it's kind of a race. But I'm still leaning more on Madoka because she's better and deserves it more than this monster. really I joined the dark side her powers seem more likely to give her the win here, at least for me.
 
The rest were all reasons above. So we had your original vote for Incapacitation via Conceptual Manip which didn't quite decide it but gave her the tool to work which, then we debated the Erasure point over and over if she could or could not do it, to which we ultimately agreed that she would erase it.

The Conceptual Erasure was understood as a higher feat than the Incapacitation but we agreed she would pull it off.

Now either of these options are way harder to pull considering A. Lavos is already non-existent and B. Again, it's non existent. It was erased and being non-existent is a much more broken type of Non-Corporeal than his previous one, on top of the regen from Nothingness as well.
 
You type Frieza in the title yet you didn't do it right.

IT'S NOT "Apparently this is happening" IT'S "And apparently, this is now happening"
 
That one time that we managed to conclude a Meguca thread lol.

Anyway,@Fan doubt that BFR would do much against an omnipresent conceptual entity existing on a higher plane of existence.

Imo that's inconclusive because both are too good at not dying have defensive hax that both of them would have a really hard time bypassing (Madoka's immortality 8 and 9 and Lavos being, well, Lavos)

I can see both of them eventually getting around said defences, but I dunno if they have ways to fully bypass them.
 
If I could agree with you and vote, I'd say this probably makes it Inconclusive too - but sadly, OP.
 
If the Lucey Goosey thread was any indication, this might become one pretty convoluted debate in time.

Inconclusive: 1 (Kaltias)

Time Devourer:

Madoka:
 
We all know that TD will win because it has Fate Manipulation and as such it can control the OP

The difference with Lucemon is that it was a "unstoppable force vs immovable object" type of thing, while here they are both kinda immovable objects
 
Why don't you join the dark side once more?

That gif is basically every Goddess Madoka match ever.

Well yeah. But Madoka really goes full defences while Lucemon is more balanced.
 
Anyways, Madoka will win in Time because she'll get Serge as a supporter I digress. Let others debate to their heart's contents.
 
Ah I see, ok.

Well I guess I'm still going with Madoka for reasons I pointed out above, she doesn't need to kill him at all like before, just incapacitate him with concept manipulation.
 
No problem!

Though how will she incapacitate the thing across all of space and time and non-existence? I don't see either putting each other down as it is now, really. As in, can Madoka incapacitate a thing that is Acausal, has as much existence as a discarded timeline and can now regenerate from literal nothingness as well?

I'd love to support Madoka on this like in the previous thread, but I legit don't see how.
 
@Fate

"Can Madoka incapacitate a thing that is Acausal"

He isn't 4-D Acasual, just 3-D, so that won't work.

"Across all of space and time"

Uh, you do remember she manipulated all of space time before right? That's kinda how she got her rating in the first place...

"has as much existence as a discarded timeline"

Last image in particular, she has that non-corporal too...
 
1. Not really, I explained that his Acausality encompasses all the Endless Timelines of Chrono Universe in the previous thread. Now after the revision that also expands to the non-existence of the DBT.

2. Yes, and that's why I'm saying she'll be stuck fighting an enemy across endless timelines that can come back while being literal nothingness and, against who anything short and up to being reduced to nothingness will be inconsequential - while it can also regenerate from nothing. Said being being Acausal, and indepedent of one another.

3. That just points it yet again to a stalemate or a long long loooooong fight where we can't say for sure if Madoka pulls something or gets absorbed/memory haxxed by Lavos. That's why I don't see this going anywhere.
 
1. You can still have only 3-D acasuality despite encompassing all the timelines, heck Madoka does too.

2. How so? I thought his regen was from non-existance? Is his regen able to undo? (note not repair, as I've mentioned before she doesn't need to kill him, and for convential mid godly regen to work, his concept would have to be damaged not changed, unless he has shown the ability to undo the changes to his concept from concept manipulators before, in which case then inconclusive ).

3. Tru
 
1. Not really. All timelines are stated to end at him, changes to one don't ever seem to affect the others, Lavos can summon himself from alternate timelines ever since base, and is now non-existent literally stated to reside in the void beyond time and space entirely independent of all the timelines while still affecting all of them, and is explicitly stated that said void is without a beginning nor an end so I think his Acausality being 4-D is pretty solid.

2. And what exactly would Madoka be doing to a non-existent thing, as well as one that has infinite manifestations as well? Lavos wouldn't be staying put while she tries to tear through an endless ammount of it, and that's even more hard to call now that its powers make it even more ridiculous to kill. Madoka trying to kill it will just result in it regenerating from nothing, which narrows her options badly. She'll be trying to incapacitate it across space-time and non-existence through some method I'm not entirely sure of how it works while the thing constantly tries to put her down as well. Much the same way Madoka could try to incapacitate it, it could try to absorb or Memory Hax her which we know for a fact that works or even consume all the universes she's engraved in leaving only her final self to fend it off. We can't outright assume one or another gets the jump when the fight happens in such a scale and neither will go down easily at all.

3. Indeed.
 
SD I helped you in that old Homucifer vs Asriel. And I'm helping Homura beat "Hi type8 Immo" CI. But I'll fight you to death now if need be.
 
Yes! Debate some more so I can properly give my "for reasons above"! ├▓vó!!!

But yeah, I can't say a thing, since I know next to nothing about Madoka and have only played Chrono Trigger.
 
But seriously, please, to all that may be reading listening... No more Lavos threads.

Have mercy on my soul. I'm exhausted from all the debating I did involving this thing in the past few threads/last month. Do me a favor and never use it again.

Or use it against someone who oneshots it in a spite thread so I can laugh at Cal's rage. Thank you.

- Sincerely, Fate.
 
1. That is quite literally still 3-D acasuality.

"All timelines are stated to end at him"

So does any 4-D omnipresent character, or even some 3-D omnipresents with immortality type 1 when you think about it.

"is explicitly stated that said void is without a beginning nor an end"

That is a requirement for all 3-D acasuals (the lack of a beginning or and end part I mean).

2. Remember the non corporeal part about Madoka? Well her wish made her nigh-omnipresent based on where the witches are, and she destroyed all of them conceptually, so based on that fact...

Also as for the mind hax part, note that Madoka has normally mind manipulation resistance.

As for consuming the engraved universes, remember the non-corporeal part too.
 
1. How so? There isn't anything on the Acausality page talking about any such requirements. And no. He's 4D Acausal because he was erased from all timelines, erased from existence, then erased from the non-existence of the DBT and they still had to unificate the endless timelines at endgame through the exact same magguffin that killed it just to be sure it wouldn't come back from an alternate timeline. Other than that, I'm imagining how on top of all that, Causality is supposed to apply to something that doesn't even exist.

2. Since you are talking about levels, I'll play your game. Non-Corporeality via non-existence is more broken than Madoka's by a long shot. Madoka still ultimately exists as a concept engraved in the universe. There is literally a scan for that in her profile. She gets reduced to nothingness along with all the Universes in which she exists, what then? Or she gets Memory Haxxed by one TD, like Homura did? Madoka has 0 confirmed resistances against 2-A memory hax.

Yet here we are. I'm not going "100% sure one TD memory haxxes her just like Homura did then proceeds to either absorb her or kill her via consuming all the infinite universes and integrating her into himself like he did - even moreso considering he can affect and interact with the quasi-existence of the Dragon-God (see the revision if you want the scans for this one) which didn't even truly exist either for all intents and purposes."

3. She destroyed them all and? Did she reduce them to less than non-existence? No. She erased all of them. NOT erased them from non-existence. Madoka is not Lucemon.

4. See above. Noncorporeal isn't getting on the way from her being hit. And I could say the same about Madoka incapacitating a non-existent being, really. Unless she has erased someone from all of existence and non-existence and I'm unaware of such a feat. Again, Memory Hax works. Go with Inconclusive or we'll stay on this for days. This isn't going anywhere.
 
Come at me, then. Like I said, I'll play your game, dear. This is the duel of the fates. A fine enough final battle for me if you're my opponent. After all, love is like Poison .
1fate
It's only natural for me to upset the laws of a God.
 
1. "An entity that is acausal has no true beginning or end," -Acasuality Page

1. Wait that's where he got acasuality from? That's not acausality at all, thats just Mid-Godly Regen. Acasuality would be immune completely from cause and effect, for example, if he was truly 4-D acasual he wouldn't have been erased from the timeline to begin with, or even call upon other versions of him selves. At best he seems 3-D acasual, however, judging by this revelation, do you know where he got that ability? To more accurately access this, does the events of Chrono Trigger get retconned the moment he went to the Tier 2 range, (similar to how madoka's multiverse restarts, thus witches never existed in this new multiverse as they're not a concept.)

2. "Non-Corporeality via non-existence is more broken than Madoka's by a long shot" Um, you do know that being engraved in the universes plus existing in non-existence is just being both part of existence and non-existence? In other words, the same level as Lavos, just with the addition of also part of existence. (Paradox of sorts, I know, but think of existence as 1 and non-existence as one in a computer code, Lavos has a 0, but Madoka has both 1 and 0.)

3. Have to kinda point out that the part was only the first half of what I said, the second was that Madoka only existed where witches used to exist, if she exists in non-existence, and she destroyed all witches, which would have to include the one that was in this non-existent realm, then that would mean...

4. If ya wanna go that route, Madoka is 2-A where as the form that has that memory manipulation ability is Low 2-C, which is quite literally an infinite size gap.

There's also the fact that Madoka was actually beginning to resist the effects of everything Homura did in the movie near the end, included memory manipulation and mind hax, but that's none of my business
 
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