Fukkatsu no L - Return of Frieza'sFinalForm_Lavos vs Goddess Madoka (Redux)

[SomebodyData]

2. Ye I know, the problem here is, that universe = timeline, past and present has no bearing here.

Unless you mean past and present from a 4-Dimensional World's perspective of course, although it wouldn't make sense why she would mention it to Homura in that case, considering how vague it is, I'm willing to leave it be, although this is where the 3rd part begins to shine.

3. Where does that "At least 2-A" come from by the way? It's reasoning: "Can devour all of space-time, which has infinite timelines in the Chrono universe. Unfathomably more powerful than his previous form." is baseline 2-A and the other one is being superior to a At least Low 2-C being.

Also existing on a higher plane =/= higher dimension, for example in DC, the Speed Force is sometimes suggested to be a higher plane or Master Oogway in Kung Fu Panda.

Ie I'm going inconclusive if the the third part is true and the second part is considered too vague, madoka can't do anything to lavos but lavos can't even reach Madoka's true self.

 

[FateAlbane]

2. Yes, I meant from a 4-D world's perspective.

3. Lavos as the DD could already possibly (just pointing this so I don't say anything based on this assumption alone) end all of existence which encompasses the endless timelines in the verse. However that is still a possibly because we don't have conclusive evidence to say that it could do so while in that form or only in the mature form.

The TD is the mature form and backs that feat up. If we conclude DD as 2-A, then the "At least" for the TD is already backed up. If we do not conclude that the DD is 2-A but instead Low 2-C, the TD has on its side a number of things to back that up: It was defeated by the combination of the main character, who was wielding two artifacts, one of which could channel all of the TD's powers and use them against it and another artifact which could reality warp on a 2-A ~ Possibly High 2-A scale eliminating it from even the darkness of the DBT and merging all the infinite timelines as well into a single one, while the main character himself is also currently listed as a 2-A, possibly High 2-A (though I'm legit uncertain in regards to these last stats. I know for a fact Serge should be pretty above baseline 2-A at endgame, but enough for High 2-A... I honestly have no idea. Maybe that's why they only gave him a possibly).

I don't know if encompassing the Non-Existence on top of the endless timelines counts as a bonus for its at least 2-A stats, too. I made many revisions for Lavos, but I didn't get the actual tier there. What I know about it is from reading the past extensive revisions we had in regards to the verse as a whole. When it comes to exact tier is one thing, but how far above baseline 2-A it is fairly hard to determine.

 

[FateAlbane]

One way or another I'll be counting your vote. Looking at the time, this is almost concluded.

Lavos: 7 (The real cal howard, Gargoyle One, LephyrTheRevanchist, FanofRPGs, Therefir, Megamangohan, TISSG7Redgrave)

Madoka: 0

Inconclusive: 3 (Kaltias, Therefir, SomebodyData)

 

[SomebodyData]

2. Yeah, I would still argue that makes no sense considering shes talking about his to Homura, but we'll leave it at that.

3.Ok I see, hmmm that makes this hard. This thread, not gonna lie, is now based on too many variables (ie the possibly 2-A part in particular, the possibly high 2-A part can make this a stomp, whether or not the distant diemnsion is on a higher plane of existance so lavos can even affect madoka to begin with, etc...)

I'm going inconclusive for now, but the amount of variables alone may invalidate the thread, and considering the info you just brought up, voters should probably revote based on what you mentioned.

 

[FateAlbane]

3 (Edit): If that last point was true, I reinforce that Madoka would be High 2-A by virtue of being untouchable to other 2-As. There isn't much to suggest that another being who exists as at least an equal to her (meaning another 2-A) wouldn't be able to reach her even with hax based on "she exists on a higher plane of existence".

But once again, not ignoring your vote.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry ninja'd you a bit there lol, but higher plane doesn't necessarily mean higher dimension like I said, my examples also showcase that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Also, just a side note, you mentioned it was immpossible to manipulate a non-existant thing earlier this thread right? Well I know that some digimon can destroy non-existant things, just a fun little fact.

 

[FateAlbane]

And no way I'm recounting any votes like less than an hour away from the end of the grace period. ovo All I want right now is catharsis from this thread and any Lavos thread ever.

I literally told Cal that I won't be debating this thing ever again and I almost want to downgrade it to Building Level on base or something based on "The Lightning spell hits it" and scale it from there so I won't need to debate it anymore.

Depending on me, someone can throw him against the lowest of Low 2-Cs or against Solaris again and say Solaris stomps, I don't know who will care, but certainly not me. Let me die in peace.

 

[SomebodyData]

ovo sorry.

Although technically what you brought up are some pretty critical points, I'm not sure if it would be accepted due to that lol.

 

[FateAlbane]

There isn't any written rule about that, SD. ovo

Don't try to prolong this already frustrating thread. It's over.

I have the high count! *Obi wan voice*

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm pretty sure we don't count votes that are compromised lol srry.

 

[FateAlbane]

No vote was compromised. ovo You only delay the inevitable. Cal witnessed that the reasons are solid and the points made were just expanded upon so that they were not debunked, but solidified in the dark side.

Only a bumper deals in absolutes.

Now you'll witness the full powah of the Homura Side.

 

[FateAlbane]

Honestly, I'd say we only have... I don't know... Five min... Is it five?Y-yes, five!Five minutes before this thread gets concluded and explodes, us along with it!

Y-yes, five!

Five minutes before this thread gets concluded and explodes, us along with it!

 

[SomebodyData]

Homura Side too stonk. No reasons were debunked, it just seems no one knew about the immortality type 9 or Possible Ap factor.

You can't win, Fate. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tfw you said for reasons above as a joke but then meant it later (yes, I am still voting for Lavos)

 

[FateAlbane]

Your arrogance blinds you, Master SD. The force-hax was more decisive than the lightsaber-AP factor, which was expanded upon after all votes were already made.

Type 9 immortality does not put her outside the range of other 2-A's with enough hax to affect her.

This fight is all but concluded.

 

[SomebodyData]

>when you don't know if this is shitpost or not, so you go back to debate.

Type 9 immortality comes from her being in a higher plane, he quite literally can't even touch her.

Again, bringing up my examples again: "The Speed Force is sometimes suggested to be a higher plane or Master Oogway in Kung Fu Panda."

A bigger example would be Zeno's palace, Valhalla, etc... A higher plane relative to a 4-D perspective is a rather big issue.

@Cal So I'm guessing you agree with Fate's interpretation of a higher plane then?


(Still pointing out the vote problem)

 

[FateAlbane]

We can't assume Madoka as being on a plane of existence so high that other 2-As can't touch her based solely on "Ascended to a higher plane of existence" when that was talked about in regards to her becoming 2-A in the first place, not from her ascending to an even higher plane of existence than a 2-A level - if that was the case, again, she would be a High 2-A.

I already covered this, an infinitely lower key of Lavos can already affect things as abstract as dreams, thoughts and memories from distant dimensions. No way Madoka is untouchable to him based on that statement because if that was the case we can throw her against any 2-A in the wiki and they won't ever scratch her based on the same reasoning.

This point is ultimately false.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, she wouldn't. Why do you keep thinking higher plane = higher dimension, despite being provened false by quite a few examples?

Distant Dimensions =/= higher plane of existance again... (Actually anyone with concept manipulation rather than concept destruction should be able to bypass that immortality type 9).

@Cal can you vouch for this? I'd rather have this idea broken now instead of someone seeing this thread and upgrading the grant Preist to Low 2-C due to being in Zeno's palace lol.

 

[FateAlbane]

I could even argue the same thing for Lavos in any other thread by saying he's also beyond the scope of the infinite timelines of Chronoverse, being unreachable by the cast on the DBT until you reach the endgame with the necessary Macguffins to defeat it - one of said Macguffins being powered by his own powers.

 

[FateAlbane]

@SD Because that's exactly what it is.

The whole Zen'o point is an strawman - any 3-D being, even the weakest human, would still be able to directly fight the Grand Priest (and be fodderized hard) if they happened to be on that castle. It's not beyond the scope of a 3-D being existing there - they just can't reach it physically due to having no means, power, hax, nor range.

This is not the case here. Lavos has more than enough range and hax to reach Madoka. You're making more and more false points here. Lavos can affect abstract things, and you're exaggerating that one statement a lot if you think that it alone proves Madoka being untouchable or above the scope of existence of other 2-As.

There's literally nothing backing up that point. The argument has reduced to headcanon at this point. She can get reduced to non-existence, memory haxxed or integrated into it eventually.

 

[FateAlbane]

Anyways, 24 hours are up and grace period is done.

This is concluded.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Since this is concluded, I shal lock it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Not a strawman, rather using the implications to show how you're wrong. My point exactly, any 3-D being can be there, its not a dimensional barrier, just a plane barrier. It's also seemingly not barricaded by physical range, as shown by the fact that Goku already has Multi-Universal IT but it requires a specific person (superme kai) rather than range to get there.

See that's a strawman. "above the scope of existence of other 2-As." soon after i mention any concept manipulators should be able to touch her...

Headcanon? Really?

Votes tho