Pokémon Humans Wide AP Upgrade

Bobsican · Mar 28, 2020

Okay, this may be an stretch, but it's somewhat reasonable when you remember humans in Pokémon constantly taking stuff from their own Pokémon and that stuff.

As we can see in Dreepy's Pokédex entry:

"If this weak Pokémon is by itself, a mere child could defeat it. But if Dreepy has friends to help it train, it can evolve and become much stronger."

And Dreepy is at worst 8-A as it isn't a baby Pokémon and can scale to the likes of Larvitar, Charmander and so on, leading that all humans in Pokémon can upscale from Dreepy to be "At least 8-A"

00potato · Mar 29, 2020

Or Dreepy isn't 8-A.

We already have a few 10-C Pokémon (Wishi-Washy, Magikarp.) so this would be fine.

Robot972 · Mar 29, 2020

But remember that Dreepy is also used as missiles by Dragapult.

Bobsican · Mar 29, 2020

And Dreepy should not be weaker than Goomy, who is stated to be the weakest Dragon type Pokémo, yet still is 8-A

00potato · Mar 29, 2020

Robot972 said:
But remember that Dreepy is also used as missiles by Dragapult.

If you fire anything at high enough speeds, it can be deadly even if the thing is not as strong by itself.

Also bob, wouldn't that just be a downgrade for goomy? Or it might not matter since dreepy was not a thing when that entry was made, making this a retcon.

Bobsican · Mar 29, 2020

I mean, Goomy also comes from an evolutionary family of pseudo-legendaries, and we all know dex entries normally remain consistent in later gens unless stated otherwise.

I'm fine with a downgrade if anything, all I really want is consistency, I guess.

00potato · Mar 30, 2020

Gyrados is considered one of the deadliest Pokémon of its kind (maybe not pseudo-legendary but the point still stands.) yet it evolves from Magikarp. So a large jump between evolutions isn't a big deal.

Monkey_Dunno · Mar 30, 2020

Dreepy is must likely just weak. It's not say that Pokémon humans aren't superhuman, but first-stage level Pokémon like Machop and Stufful are explicitly stated to possess a Superhuman Strength within universe and be able to defeat Pro Wrestlers respectively, despite them being on the same level as the Pokémon from which Dreepy scales off.

Bobsican · Mar 30, 2020

Okay, I'm fine with Dreepy (and Goomy) being 10-C

GyroNutz · Mar 30, 2020

Pokehumans have feats at 7-A, let alone 8-A.

00potato · Mar 30, 2020

I would be fine with that. What are the feats?

Overlord775 · Mar 30, 2020

Kiyo beating a Tyrogue that had thrashed his Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee

The one rocket grunt in Mahogany Town surviving a Hyper Beam from Lance's Dragonair

Maylene slapping away her Lucario's Aura Sphere

Bea physically training with her Machamp

Just to name a few

GyroNutz · Mar 30, 2020

Every single time Ash/team Rocket survive attacks from Ash's Pikachu

00potato · Mar 30, 2020

Seems legitimate and consistent enough, at least for them.

Bobsican · Mar 30, 2020

I mean, right now we clearly rate Pokéhumans right now as just 9-B at best, meaning that currently they are rated even lower than... Magikarp.

Okay, maybe we should look for the feats for each individual trainer and rate them accordingly by scaling to the respective Pokémon so long it isn't an outlier? As it seems until now everything has been taken as such, although that's pretty questionable now.

00potato · Mar 30, 2020

That seems fair. Good suggestion Bob.

Bobsican · Mar 30, 2020

Okay, we have a lot to check

Imaginym · Mar 30, 2020

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...émon_Humans_are_a_little,_teensy_bit_above_us

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Imaginym/Pokemon_World_Human_stuff

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Charmand3r505/Tier_9_Humans_(Pokemon_ReBurst)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Charmand3r505/Ryouga_Electrical_Power_(Pokemon_ReBurst)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Monkey_Dunno/Pokémon’s_Calc:_Ash_Tosses_a_Log

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Monkey_Dunno/Pokémon’s_Calc:_Ash_Saves_a_Houndour

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AidenBrooks999/Chuck_Lifting_Strength_-_Pok%C3%A9mo

Edit: Oh, & https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...diot_calc:_Pokemon:_Brendead_and_Tentacruelty

I think these links may help get an idea of how Pokemon World humans stack up.

There are also a number of in-game statements about trainers being able to break rocks with their kicks & such, IIRC.

Blahblah9755 · Mar 30, 2020

So, for the above linked stuff: it looks like pretty consistent wall level and casual peak human to class 10 LS for martial artists/trained humans. An accepted but not applied subsonic calc for Ash (where he also was visibly moving as a blur).

For other common feats:

For durability there's obviously every instance of Pokémon's attacking humans, humans getting hit by things that were a threat to their pokemon, and humans protecting pokemon from harm throughout the various anime and manga series. There's also that rocket grunt who Lance hyper beamed. Ash and manga Red are both scaled to building level durability for tanking lightning, despite the fact that most of the lightning they tank comes from Pokémon.

For reaction speed: every trainer ever's ability to give orders mid-battle, and the fact that humans can throw poke balls at conscious wild pokemon, and intercept those same thrown poke balls at their own pokemon, would all indicate them at least having reaction speed to keep up. There's also the fact that pokemon being fast enough that humans can't track their movement is seen as unusual.

For general speed, one of the calcs linked above was Ash sprinting fast enough to intercept an attack from a Golem, this sort of thing happens throughout the anime. It's also fairly common throughout the anime for humans to chase after pokemon that have stolen something or that they're trying to catch. I'm pretty sure there were significant parts of anime episodes dedicated to Ash chasing after pokemon that had taken his hat. Though this is obviously nowhere near as consistent as the reaction speed.

I don't think there are as many noteworthy things for LS and AP, but there's the fact that seemingly normal 10 year olds (or younger) can regularly and effortlessly carry around 5-20 kg pokemon, which although not superhuman in terms of weight, is incredibly abnormal for prepubescent kids, and would probably be superhuman in terms of duration and ease with some of the higher weights. Also, top martial artists are regularly depicted to train against fully evolved pokemon as Overlord gave examples of above.

Bobsican · Apr 2, 2020

Bump.

Lonkitt · Apr 3, 2020

I find it hilarious how you could show me any feat from a Pokéhuman and I would find it several times more interesting than a feat from an actual Pokémon

NeoZex6399 · Apr 3, 2020

I find it curious how the most obvious case of superhuman strength/speed in humans in the pokémon world is being ignored.

https://youtu.be/UKmY7tN--mY?t=286

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shadow_Triad

Imaginym · Apr 4, 2020

@ NeoZex6399: Interesting, but do we have a way to quantify it, or a reasonable rating we can assume for it?

Lonkitt · Apr 4, 2020

Well, that would definitely warrant Acrobatics

NeoZex6399 · Apr 4, 2020

The Shadow Triad moves so fast in the games that they seem to teleport and are able to jump more than 10 meters in the air, at least in speed they are quite good.

Lonkitt · Apr 4, 2020

The trainer from Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon could dodge a Spearow attack. We could use that for reaction speed scaling

Bobsican · Apr 4, 2020

Bump.

Lonkitt · Apr 4, 2020

Do you guys think it's reasonable to upgrade the reaction speed of humans?

00potato · Apr 4, 2020

Definitely.

Bobsican · Apr 5, 2020

I mean, trainers are able to react alongside their Pokémon to tell them even to dodge stuff in the middle of it being performed, so that would be quite consistent.

Lonkitt · Apr 5, 2020

Yeah, I think revising their speed would also be a good idea then

Bobsican · Apr 7, 2020

Bump.

Blahblah9755 · Apr 8, 2020

I definitely agree with reaction time. It's consistent for all mediums since anime and manga give commands mid action while game characters have to throw poke balls at conscious Pokémon and can block those poke balls.

Bobsican · Apr 8, 2020

Mmm... in that case I guess everyone is fine with trainers just scaling to the Pokémon they hold so long they aren't legendaries? That's a good place to start.

Lonkitt · Apr 9, 2020

As long as the scaling makes sense and isn't just "this trainer scales to this trainer because they are a trainer"

Bobsican · Apr 10, 2020

Okay, as this is a wide revision, I guess it's best to be postponed for after the forum move.

Jasonsith · Apr 18, 2020

NeoZex6399 said:
I find it curious how the most obvious case of superhuman strength/speed in humans in the pokémon world is being ignored.

https://youtu.be/UKmY7tN--mY?t=286

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shadow_Triad

May try to do this some time...

What about... The trainers scale in strength and AP to Bea who can do a push up with a small boulder on her back?

But that needs to get calcuand evaluated tho.

Imaginym · Apr 18, 2020

Scaling which trainers to Bea? I mean, her lifestyle doesn't seem typical.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bea ""Given special attention from her parents, Bea trained hard with her partner Pokémon since a very young age."

"It's possible that the strict (one might even say too strict) training from her stern parents has left a burden on young Bea, taking away her smile."

Shortened for brevity, but, the wording of the rest of those League Card quotes implies it may have been mental training?

Bobsican · Apr 18, 2020

Guys, the forum move is happening, so anything that may be discussed now will be lost.

So please keep whatever you want to keep for reference in a blog post or so.

Imaginym · Apr 18, 2020

Ah yes. That's a little inconvenient, but yeah.

Pokémon Humans Wide AP Upgrade

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