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Xenoblade downgrade

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Theglassman12

Theglassman12

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Ok, so I'm just gonna get this out of the way since I can't seem to get a solid answer from anyone about this aside from vague answers, but let's do this. Long story short, the Xenoblade god tiers should not be 2-A at all because there's nothing in Xenoblade 2 that justifies there being infinite universes or timelines. The only answer I got regarding 2-A is a japanese translation where Klaus said the word "Mugen" when describing the amount of universes, which btw, he never once said the word Mugen in the timestamp at all, and instead says Countless universes.

Another statement which somehow equates to 2-A Xenoblade is Fiora saying how there's infinite possibilities based on the choices they make. Which doesn't remotely talk about the size of the verse, she's talking about how the future isn't always determined and how you can alter the future in an infinite number of ways, which is the whole theme of Xenoblade. Nothing about her talk with Zanza remotely mentions about the cosmology and how big the entire world of Xenoblade is.

So yeah, I'm proposing we should remove 2-A from Xenoblade and just leave them at 2-B based on the whole countless universes statement Klaus has.
 
It probably would have good if they actually hear it so many times as well as put on the CC function on YT to check the characters/words a character is saying.

Cuz I saw the vid and heard it, mainly to practice hearing by ear alone in Japanese, but to check if what the person say is true or not and I did not hear nor see any word said as "Mugen". What I heard, and saw in the Japanese caption, was "ÕñÜÒüÅ" or "Ōku".

I had to run this through with Google Translate, Jisho (Japanese word dictionary) and a few others to make sure what I looked up is right and all I got in translation of the meaning are "many", with other meanings to it being "much", "largely" and "most" among other possible translations to it.

So the Klaus guy in Japanese was saying "ÕñÜÒüÅÒü«õ©ûþòî" or "Ōku no sekai", which roughly means many worlds.
 
If the legitimate translation of "Oku" is "many", and the completed translation roughly means "many worlds", then that truly seems to suggest these characters are really Multiverse level

Safe to say, I agree with the downgrade.
 
That's Oku with just an O there. "Ōku" is with a Ō.

Oku, funnily enough, means 10^8 or one hundred million. But Klaus said Oku with like a double O sound, which comes out as Ō according to my findings.
 
Yeah that's what I meant. However it doesn't seem I can input that letter with my current keyboard.

And yeah, apparently either way would lead to 2-B lol.
 
@Julian: I just copy and paste the Ō since IDK what function key I use for that.

Anyways aside that, IDK anything about the verse and while I can admit I am just a beginner in Japanese, it is important to really know what the characters are saying by hearing it and if that doesn't help you can pull up the youtube caption button to see the text of what they're saying.

Had it truly been Oku Klaus said, it would have been easy just by looking up the numbers from here. But in this case, it's not quite that as it's Ōku. Whether or not this still translates to "endless universes" is up to you guys.

But I do agree that infinite sounds iffy given the OP pointing that out here.

Edit: I did check out synonyms for many online and I got counltess and endless among them so it probably isn't far off to have them at 2-B. But again, up to you all here.
 
So I kinda forgot about the other thread, but what I was going to say was that 2-A is also shown in Xenogears and Xenosaga through the Zohar's Phenomenon Shift ability. There was a link that explained that earlier in the thread, but to summarize, the core design of that ability is completely based off of the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) which is a theory that basically says that wavefunction never collapses, but all possibilities become actualities in different realities. Now, I'll reaffirm the rationale behind Xenosaga/Xenogears being canon to Xenoblade since I know not all of you were in the other thread where some of this stuff was discussed. One of the reasons why Xenosaga and Xenoblade are canon to each other is because the Conduit in Xenoblade and the Zohar in Xenogears and Xenosaga are the same thing. Both are infinite perpetual motion machines, both have true forms that can't be perceived by 4-D beings, and both were discovered in Africa during the 21st century. Aside from the Zohar, you also have KOS-MOS from Xenosaga who's conscience was carried over into a different body and also retains the exact same memories as the one from Xenosaga. It's pretty late where I am, so if you guys have any questions I might answer them tomorrow.
 
Can you please bring any form of scan to back this up? You haven't even shown any scans for 2-A even in the last thread.
 
Where does that remotely say anything regarding 2-A stuff? It only mentions a universe, not infinite universes.
 
Let's see, I remember the Nopon Archsage stating that there is as many worlds as there are possibilities which when paired with the "infinite possibilities" statement gives it a new meaning. (I'll try to get it but it'll be very hard as coronavirus is just around the corner from me and I have a lot of stuff to do)

Neutral on this as the God Tiers losing 2-A would ironically benefit them more than anything as they won't have to deal with 2-A nonsense like Archie Sonic or BlazBlue.
 
@Florida Where does it say that, can you show the exact line where it says that because it only mentions a lot of Jargon and a statement on a Universe, not an infinite sized multiverse.

@Josh Did you not read what I typed in the OP? The infinite possibility statement from Fiora has NOTHING to do with the verse's size, it was a speech about how the future isn't set in stone. That's it, nothing about alternate timelines or universes, just that you can change the future.
 
"The Wave Existence exists in multiple realities simultaneously... that is the definition of a higher dimensional entity... as Id's power is directly drawn from this source his attacks can be argued to exist in multiple dimensions.... from a physics standpoint this explains the high yield of his attacks as when they collide with lower dimensional matter they must discharge the higher dimensional mass in the only form that can exist in a lower dimensional plane.... raw energy" This is a quote from Perfect Works, which is where I'm getting most of this info from, and it's once again referring to Phenomenon Shift ability being demonstrated through Id's power. The existence of possibilities manifested as alternate realities once again refers back to the Many Worlds Interpretation. Id is basically drawing energy from a higher-dimensional being that exists in all of these alternate realities, the Wave Existence, and converting it into energy that can be utilized in his own universe which is how the Phenomenon Shift ability works in general. These alternate realities are the possibilities that he's manipulating to receive a certain outcome. And like I've said above, Fiora's statement about infinite possibilities would justify 2-A because Perfect Works shows us that all of these possibilities exist as alternate realities.
 
@Glassman

Yes I did read it. You seem to consistently miss every time the statement of the Nopon Archsage stating that there is as many worlds as there are possibilities which I'm trying to find with the limited time I have.
 
@Florida the existance of multiple dimensions and possibilities does not answer my question on if there's a 2-A realm. And once again you fail to understand what the hell Fiora was talking about with the infinite possibilities. She wasn't talking about the size of the verse, she's talking about how you can change the future in an infinite number of ways, how many times do I have to tell you this?

@Josh the statement that does not have anything to do with Fiora's statement, and you claim it has everything to do with that line Fiora says. There exists as many worlds as there are possibilites does not tell us that there's infinite worlds and shit.
 
Ok, what I'm trying to say is that possibilities are alternate realities, and then referring back to Xenoblade, the existence of infinite possibilities means there's an infinite amount of alternate realities. I've already explained multiple times how Xenoblade is canon to Xenosaga too. This means that the existence of possibilities as alternate realities, which is proven through the Zohar's Phenomenon Shift ability, means that if there's infinite possibilities according to Xenoblade, then there is an infinite amount of alternate realities. The scan I showed also refers to possibilities as different future outcomes just like in Xenoblade, but they still exist as alternate realities. I know I sound like a broken record here but you've gotta try to read a little deeper into what I'm saying here, you seem to just be taking it at face value.
 
infinite possibilities on your CHOICES, NOT Inifinite realities. Do you have any proof that they say infinite possibilities when it comes to describing the size of the verse? And not from a speech about changing the future?
 
Yes, your choices dictate possibilities, that's just common sense. Though, alternate realities are the possibilities, they're inherently connected because of how Xenogears portrays all possibilities as alternate realities. Xenogears is not the only source for lore within the verse because I've already established that Xenoblade, Xenosaga, and Xenogears are canon to each other. Possibilities are different future outcomes based on a decision. Both Xenogears and Xenoblade are using this definition when they refer to possibilities, and Xenogears still makes the point that possibilities are alternate realities. Keep in mind that the games are canon to each other and use that exact same definition when referring to the term, you say it like Xenogears and Xenoblade have completely different ways of defining that term when there's absolutely no difference in how it's portrayed.
 
i can go either way on this one , i can see 2-A , but i can see the reasoning for the downgrades , but i still buy 2-A , so i guess ill disagree for now , but hey im cool with having them at 2-b , so either way doesnt really matter to me.
 
@Florida do you have any proof that said choices can change into alternate realities? You've also yet to prove that both Xenogears and Xenosaga have infinite universes at all. I've only seen claims that they are infinite, and no scans whatsoever that there are infinite universes.
 
If the translation is "many worlds" and not countless, wouldn't that lead to a rating of "At least 2-C"?
 
@Theglassman12 Again, here's this quote from Perfect Works, my primary source for all this "The Wave Existence exists in multiple realities simultaneously... that is the definition of a higher dimensional entity... as Id's power is directly drawn from this source his attacks can be argued to exist in multiple dimensions.... from a physics standpoint this explains the high yield of his attacks as when they collide with lower dimensional matter they must discharge the higher dimensional mass in the only form that can exist in a lower dimensional plane.... raw energy" it's referring back to the Phenomenon Shift ability and how Id utilized it. The Phenomenon Shift ability manipulates all possibilities, which exist as alternate universes as shown above, to provide the user with they're desired outcome.
 
And then like I've said before, the design of the Phenomenon Shift ability falls perfectly in line with the Many Worlds Interpretation, the theory that possibilities exist as alternate realities, because of how Perfect Works portrays possibilities as different realities so there's that too. As for the supposed lack of information for 2-A, Fiora's statement is still valid because the proof of possibilities being different realities has already been laid out by Xenogears, but you seem to be ignoring that.
 
Have time to pop back in.

@Glassman

So Fiora claiming that there are infinite possibilities and another much more knowledgeable character stating that there are as many possibilities as there are worlds/universes have nothing to do with each other even though if both are true then it makes a 2-A multiverse.

@Gyro

Their current tier is "At least 2-C, likely 2-B, possibly 2-A" so that is already there.

@Crimson

Oh? Do you happen to be involved with the Xenogears/Saga stuff DDM told me about? If so I'm very curious on it and would love to know more about it.
 
@JoshSSJ but where does 2-B come from? "Many worlds" is at least 2-C, infinite possiblities and a world for each possibility (with worlds = timespace) is 2-A.
 
GyroNutz said:
@JoshSSJ but where does 2-B come from? "Many worlds" is at least 2-C, infinite possiblities and a world for each possibility (with worlds = timespace) is 2-A.
Click to expand...
Because that isn't the translation, according to the same person he uses an accent which could mean Countless or Endless while when just Oku it means 10^8.
 
No, he's saying that "many" is a synonym of countless and endless. Which is true, but we can't assume that many means endless. He also said that Oku without the accent was wrong, so it can't mean 10^8.
 
It's the other way around: Two synonym's for "many" among others is countless and endless. Although that's probably just the same there.

But yes, pretty much what Gyro said.

I actually thought Klaus had said "Oku" but I knew he said it with a long vowel sound, hence why it came up as "Ōku" or Ooku with like two O's in it. Japanese vowels are another thing to keep in mind of.

Just saying it again, IDK anything of this verse but whether it does have 2-A or not is up to you all. But in this particular instance, there's no 2-B or it possibly could if you count for what similar words for "many" can be attributed to as been said.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
@Crimson

Oh? Do you happen to be involved with the Xenogears/Saga stuff DDM told me about? If so I'm very curious on it and would love to know more about it.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of it but i don't know much yet. However, i'm gonna play through the games and go through whatever extra things they have, so you can probably expect me to talk about it in a few months. Probably.
 
thats fair enough , for now we should probobly put them at 2-C with the possibilty of 2-B , until crimson can properly explain his point or someone else can , we should probobly just wait until someone who has sufficent knowlege about xenosaga or the xeno series as a whole before removing 2-B all together.
 
I think that this seems to make sense. Have you reached a conclusion here?
 
Not quite yet, while I can agree that the current justification for 2-A is flawed, I brought up a few other things that can allow the tier to remain same. I'll relay the information to you.
 
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