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Also, Alpha appears to have two keys on the tiers section, but his AP only lists it once.
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Introduction of Xenoblade 3 to the wiki + bonus stuff that didn't take me as long as last time.
- Thread starter JoshSSJGod
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I'll fix that
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Alrighty, all the pages have been made. All that is left to do other than discuss Z's Amphitheatre would be to apply the additional changes to other characters (such as MFTL+/Infinite and Space-Time/Sealing resistance)
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Alright. The last of the changes have been applied. All that is left to do is discuss Z's Amphitheatre.
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I've been asked to provide input here.
I unfortunately have very little context on the feat of Z's Amphitheatre, but at an absolute minimum, it would qualify as some kind of reality warping. What strikes me as important here is that he can change the events happening on the screen of the theatre at will, and these changes on the screen cause physical changes to reality. I have no issue saying this would qualify for reality warping. Of course, he already visibly has reality warping on his profile, so that's not much more than supporting evidence for that - but I imagine it could qualify for more.
What makes me err away from saying it's plot manipulation specifically is that there isn't much of an implication (at least, not in the sources provided) that these manipulations are of a reality perceived as fictional from Z's perspective. To quote the plot manipulation page:
"Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping."
An important element of plot manipulation is that the "plot" is something defined as fictional from the perspective of the manipulator. I could see how this could be applied here, in the sense of everything occurring as just being a "film on a theatre screen", but there otherwise isn't much implication in the sources to suggest that everything occurring is fictional from Z's perspective. If this isn't the case, then whatever it is that he's 'manipulating', it's not the plot. If there are further sources that could support this, however, I'd be more than happy to evaluate them - as mentioned, I have very little context here, as I have not played the game myself.
Simply put, I think more elaboration on the nature of Z's amphitheatre is warranted if we want to apply a specific ability to it. It's an important and existent ability, but if we don't have enough context to say exactly what it entails, the most we can do is list it as an addendum to reality warping.
I unfortunately have very little context on the feat of Z's Amphitheatre, but at an absolute minimum, it would qualify as some kind of reality warping. What strikes me as important here is that he can change the events happening on the screen of the theatre at will, and these changes on the screen cause physical changes to reality. I have no issue saying this would qualify for reality warping. Of course, he already visibly has reality warping on his profile, so that's not much more than supporting evidence for that - but I imagine it could qualify for more.
What makes me err away from saying it's plot manipulation specifically is that there isn't much of an implication (at least, not in the sources provided) that these manipulations are of a reality perceived as fictional from Z's perspective. To quote the plot manipulation page:
"Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping."
An important element of plot manipulation is that the "plot" is something defined as fictional from the perspective of the manipulator. I could see how this could be applied here, in the sense of everything occurring as just being a "film on a theatre screen", but there otherwise isn't much implication in the sources to suggest that everything occurring is fictional from Z's perspective. If this isn't the case, then whatever it is that he's 'manipulating', it's not the plot. If there are further sources that could support this, however, I'd be more than happy to evaluate them - as mentioned, I have very little context here, as I have not played the game myself.
Simply put, I think more elaboration on the nature of Z's amphitheatre is warranted if we want to apply a specific ability to it. It's an important and existent ability, but if we don't have enough context to say exactly what it entails, the most we can do is list it as an addendum to reality warping.
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Thanks for the help btw, much appreciated
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In passing, I'll mention that I would have 100% played it by now if I had a Nintendo Switch. It looks great, and totally up my alley.
Also, to elaborate on my thoughts around the higher dimensional stuff - it sounds plausible, but I'm not 100% convinced yet. In the event that the film on the theatre screen is indeed the whole of the world, and the theatre is a space separate from it that wholly encompasses it, I think it could qualify. In such a case, the film in the theatre would be a 4D space, and the theatre itself would have to be at least 5D to encompass it.
Where my doubts lie is whether the "film" is the actually the whole of the reality in the first place. As far as I can tell, all of the sources still make sense if we just think of the theatre as a separate world and the film as a "window" into a different world, with the screen acting as a portal to the world (as N travelled through it). In the event that the theatre and the world where the events take place are just two 'different' worlds, and the film merely allows Z to look into one world from the other, everything still works and the theatre does not need to be a qualitatively superior place.
As before, of course, this still falls into the issue of "I've not played the game, I don't know one way or the other". More thorough evidence of the theatre being a qualitatively superior dimension that encompasses the other world, rather than just offering a window into it, could convince me.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I do have my disagreements about the idea of the Amphitheatre's film essentially being a portal. We see that the film is capable of displaying past events and present events with the latter actually being in the same world as Z. If it were to act as a portal then logically it would be capable of acting as a way to go to whatever it is displaying which has never been shown for it to be able to do.
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Ooh, okay. That adds an interesting layer here. The film can display all events occurring in that world, past, present, and future?
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- #90
Past and present is a yes. It has never shown to display the future (though Origin has Precognition so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume but better to be safe). The part that makes me think the most about this however is for that scene with N (the one I linked), the woman he walks up to (M/Mio) is dead. She is not revived until later for when N makes his choice to kill everyone in the City to revive her which means that the world N walks into isn't reality (as why would he kill the City folk if Mio is already alive).
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Seconding this. There's a lot of context to this scene that's missed for those who don't know the game. This whole scene N walks into is wholly fictional
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Oh, that surely changes things. How exactly does the film display events in this separate world that aren't real? Is it like, displaying an alternate timeline?
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- #93
Its never directly stated however, it is likely Z's manipulations (alternate timelines wouldn't apply here as the world of Aionios is unique by virtue of being a world created by Origin). He already has shown to be able to manipulate it so that is the most logical explanation.
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This is never really directly explained. It wouldn't be an alternate timeline, though, as Aionios (the world the game takes place in) is already a unique world created by Origin, which Z has full control over. I'm with Josh as far as the explanation goes, though it's never directly mentioned what this is
Adding to the fictional nature of the film N steps into, by the way, is how the whole scene he steps into has that sort of retro film filter over it
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- #96
You can. I'm not.
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Not necessarily. Even if that was the case there is seemingly no evidence that movement speed does scale to combat speed, and the opposite isn't the default assumption.
By the way, if you guys are gonna do Supergenius you should tag Ant, otherwise if he disagrees he might just delete it off the profiles without a thread.
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Nah, genuinely there's no two ways about it, that's game mechanics. It's like saying Sonic is Superhuman/Supersonic/whatever just because of the distance he covers in gameplay despite his canonical speed, which is a concession made so that the player can... well, actually control Sonic
Again I say, imagine trying to control an accurately lightspeed character. That's horrific
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That's an overreach of his power if he does so, to put it bluntly
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I mean, I don't disagree, but he's done it in the past.
No, because Sonic has actual movement speed feats on that level. Like, sure, let's pretend the Superhuman is gameplay mechanics, you still don't have any proof that movement speed scales to combat speed.
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The Massively FTL+ and Infinite ratings come from movement feats that have been shown to scale to combat speed...
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Aight, so I know. What is everyone's consensus on Z's Amphitheatre?
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I think it might be Plot Manipulation after DarkGrath reread some details and noted that changes things.
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I don’t think it’s R>F (unless you have more proof) nor is it Plot Manipulation because it’s as Glass said it lacks that meta whatever sense to it.
I’m more fond if it being Reality Warping as in my head that makes a bit more sense than plot manipulation .
I’m more fond if it being Reality Warping as in my head that makes a bit more sense than plot manipulation .
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- #107
That wasn't in regard to Plot Manipulation. It was for R > F.
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Okay so what is your opinion of it as R > F.
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I apologize, but I will not be participating in this since I have not played Xenoblade Chronicles 3, so it would be massively inappropriate + chance of spoiling myself.
Again, sorry.
Again, sorry.
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It is the best game in the series I'd argue and my 2nd favorite game on the Switch next to Tears of the Kingdom. And easily one of my top 3 favorite games of tall time which says a lot considering how long so many 90's era classics have consistently dominated my top 5/10 games list. But it is like a several hundred hour long game to 100% so it definitely takes lone to appreciate.
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Agnian. Keves master race.
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Don’t know which one is my favorite honestly. They’re all really good and each one does so many things well.
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It was originally going to be a flip flop for 1 and 3, but I decided 3 because the story and characters are just that good as well as its chain attack system with Interlinking also being awesome. And Future Redeemed made me love XB3 even more, so I basically have to give it to that one.
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I am an Agnian through and through
All the unnecessary hate 2 got made me love it even more ngl, though 3 is also ****** amazing. Of course, this isn’t to discredit 1 at all, all 3 games are masterpieces in their own rights
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Xenoblade Chronicles X is also heavily underappreciated.
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We've gotten weirdly off-topic here. I know this is a thread made by and for Xenoblade fans, and it's great you all enjoy it, but that's not the discussion topic here. The main discussion point now is regarding Z's Amphitheatre, and we haven't really resolved that.
For clarification on my view so far (since it seems to have caused some confusion), I don't have a strong take on how to acknowledge this matter on the profiles just due to the lack of clarification on some of the more important elements. Not to the fault of anyone here, mind you - it seems like the game itself just doesn't elaborate much on these points. But without having any clear explanation on, for example, how the film was used to depict a scene that was seemingly in the other world but not actually "real", I can't really say for sure how Z's Amphitheatre and the other world connect. And this is unquestionably the most important part here; how the worlds connect could be used to understand whether there is a reality/fiction difference (in which case, there would be good rationale for plot manipulation), and/or whether the Amphitheatre encompasses the world or merely exists alongside it.
What I think would be worth pursuing here is gathering evidence to infer how the connection between the worlds work by process of elimination. The fact that the game doesn't appear to explicitly state or show how it works doesn't mean that we cannot deduce how it works from the things that are stated and shown. A particular point of interest I'd like to explore is what exactly the consequences were for "resurrecting" Mio in the film.
For clarification on my view so far (since it seems to have caused some confusion), I don't have a strong take on how to acknowledge this matter on the profiles just due to the lack of clarification on some of the more important elements. Not to the fault of anyone here, mind you - it seems like the game itself just doesn't elaborate much on these points. But without having any clear explanation on, for example, how the film was used to depict a scene that was seemingly in the other world but not actually "real", I can't really say for sure how Z's Amphitheatre and the other world connect. And this is unquestionably the most important part here; how the worlds connect could be used to understand whether there is a reality/fiction difference (in which case, there would be good rationale for plot manipulation), and/or whether the Amphitheatre encompasses the world or merely exists alongside it.
What I think would be worth pursuing here is gathering evidence to infer how the connection between the worlds work by process of elimination. The fact that the game doesn't appear to explicitly state or show how it works doesn't mean that we cannot deduce how it works from the things that are stated and shown. A particular point of interest I'd like to explore is what exactly the consequences were for "resurrecting" Mio in the film.
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Oh trust me, the Xeno series just loves to not explain very important aspects about it and give explanations later or in off hand products.
Anyway, in the film, she was just standing there at the end of a forked road (symbolism be like that) and then walks with N as he passes by. This is in contrast to how N had to "breathe life into her" by killing everyone in the City.
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Bump, resolving the matter of Z's Amphitheatre is one of high importance as it could lead to a tier shift on the profiles.
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