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Xenoblade downgrade

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Because of the final battle against Zanza, while Shulk is the only one who scales above Zanza in terms of power, everyone else was still present in Memory Space and was unaffected by the Passage of Fate. Medeus also says thier is a statement which includes the rest of the party as the "Homs who exist outside of the passage of fate."
 
Can I see the statement? Because from what you've shown me, Shulk's the only one who exists outside the passage of Fate.
 
I searched and couldn't find the other statement. However, I did find this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNgmcTmYXk&list=PLpVpBRIlzWuACOJgx8hWczY9w5ojKg8Ji&index=140&t=0s. It shows Zanza's visions of the entire party ending at a certain point in time. Meaning that he couldn't see thier futures either, which should mean that existing outside of the passage of fate also applies to the rest of the party. Also in the cutscene that I showed above, Shulk says "And we're the source of that risk". While this could be written off as Shulk and Alvis, he could also mean we as in we the party. Plus as I said before, the party was present during the final battle against Zanza. and could survive the effects of being in Memory Space and by extension The Passage of Fate.
 
IDK , i personally agree with either 2-B or 2-C , as both calcs for the xenoblade top tiers have been explained well enough , im not sure about 2-A though
 
@Bware I'm a bit skeptical on that scaling to the cast. If Alvis said that they all exist outside the passage of fate then I'd be fine with it, but he did specifically mentioned that Shulk was the one who existed outside of the Passage of Fate, so that could easily be just Shulk messing with it.

@Florida that doesn't really mean 2-A. that's just ever growing possibilities/probabilities, and if these do equate to universes being made, it's likely just the same as DB's 2-B where it's just growing ever so larger as time goes on, not being legit infinite.
 
I suppose that would be possibly, but the story doesn't really imply that Shulk actively tampered with it though.
 
First of all, I agree that only Shulk really scales from Zanza as the rest were simply guided and protected by Shulk. However, Zanza is one with the Passage of Fate where all live and die at the mercy of Zanza, and is thus capable of omnipresent wide Fate Manipulation. Shulk's Acausality is the only reason to argue against that, not that he doesn't have those levels of Cosmic Awareness. Besides, Klaus learned the existence of the Multiverse from the Conduit which was stated to be a "Gift from a Divine Entity". Who is obviously Alvis. So the Far Flung Dimension, is where Alvis's true home is. But it's most likely the Upper Domain from Xenosaga.

Inflationary multiverse theories are indeed 2-B, but he is comparing the fact that their exists an alternate reality or universe for each and every possibility/probability. So if there is an infinite number of possibilities, there's an infinite number of universes. But Xenogears takes place in a Brane Cosmology Multiverse.

Actually, Ever and Aeyu are only unfamiliar with Xenoblade. They are very familiar with Xenogears/Xenosaga. Aeyu forgot where the High 1-B to 1-A statement was, but she thinks it came from a guidebook. It is not hypocritical, as they're both familiar with Xenosaga and knowledgeable on our tiering system. Aeyu and Ultima are among the main people who created the Tier 1 and above ratings to begin with. So that's why I wanted people to wait regarding anything Tier 1 related. In fact, I'm not familiar with Xenosaga as I have not yet played or watched LPs about it. And I don't know of many guidebooks, so there. That's why I'm relying on them for Xenosaga stuff.

However, there is a list of translated stuff here. And this might be easiest to search with. The Phenomenon Alteration System, Zohar, repeatedly selects an event with the probability of zero, while the probability axis continues to incline. At the intersection at which the phenomenal axis and temporal axis fall parallel, an alternate reality is created; this link or road is called "The Path of Sephirot." Basically summarizes an alternate reality for each and every probability. The Connection Experiment actually entails the fusion of Deus with the Phenomenon Actualization System, Zohar, because Zohar can create an infinite abundance of energy by actualizing an infinite number of potential future phenomena. So the final boss of Xenogears mentions draining an infinite amount of energy/power from an infinite number of possible futures. And this is all in the Lower Domain. While the Upper Domain is still a plane of higher infinity above that.
 
Again can you actually give proof that Alvis existed in the Upper Domain? You're making massive reaches with no proof backing it up.

Yeah, IF there exists infinite possibilities as universes. So again any proof that can validate 2-A would be great.

You clearly didn't read what I said. I don't care if they're knowledgeable on Xenosaga or Gears. You used them as proof that other people agreed with 2-A XenoBLADE while admitting they aren't the most knowledgeable on XenoBLADE. So when I have people that aren't knowledgeable on XenoBLADE agree with me as validation it's bad, but when you do it it's fine. That's a massive double standard you have there.

Can I see any scans that says that Phenomena are treated as infinite universes? Cause you haven't elaborated on what Phenomena even means for Xenogears.
 
It's already common that Alvis is the true god tier of the Xenoblade Multiverse, or at least the closest thing we know to it. And a God Tier above everyone including Zanza does exist. The Conduit is a gift from some Divine Entity. That "Divine Entity points to Alvis unless there's another god tier above him. But given we already know from Xenoblade 1 that he is the true Monado as well as the one who gave Zanza and Shulk all their godly powers, it all points to him.

They're still knowledgeable on multiversal tiering standards, which is the part that matters. They can read reasons and justifications back to back to verify the meanings. That's the difference; they don't need familiarity with the verse, but they do need some kind of familiarity with the system and/or familiar on verses with similar cosmologies and lore. Xenoblade/Xenosaga/Xenogears are far more like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Super Robot Wars, and Final Fantasy than they are Dragon Ball. Plus, I still gave other sources that connect Xenosaga to Xenoblade. Some explanations in this video. It's mentioned that Namco pretty much confirmed that crossovers aside, the did confirm the ending of Xenosaga Episode III was a cliffhanger for a reason. The ending was supposed to be, that "She teleport to a different universe due to the Zohar's influence and is looking for her master." I know SRW only has a one-sided canon; obviously it's its own continuity. But the last detail about Kos-Mos ending in Xenosaga III is the one part that's actually canon. And it remains so in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. The Conduit/Zohar has activated Many people and many things, disappeared into distant dimensions, Kos-Mos and T-elos landed in Alrest.

It's in here, I did show you those the quotes, you can search them via ctrl + F. Anyway this page mentions higher dimensions and it appears both works are translated differently. And this sca mentions the creation of another universe for each and every possibility. Though, forgot this had a search bar, but there's several stuff about higher dimensions.
 
That doesn't answer my question. You haven't proven that Alvis is from the Upper Domain other than he might be there. A gift from some Divine Entity also doesn't explain anything on who or what gave it to him. Is there anything on that that heavily implies that Alvis was the one who gave it to him?

So how does that not apply to everyone else here who's been in the wiki long enough to understand how the tiering system works for tier 2? Again we're not talking about TTGL or SRW or FF, for the last time we're talking about Xenoblade, can you stay on topic without bringing up other verses that has nothing to do with the CRT?

Ok, he explains they're similar but he doesn't show any cutscenes backing it up on them being identical, on top of saying Kos Mos could possibly be an alternate version of herself instead of the exact same character. Can I see where Namco confirmed that Saga 3's ending is canon?

Again that's not what I was asking for. I asked for proof that those Phenomena are treated as actual universes or timelines. That needs a lot more elaboration than that because it can mean anything unless we have some clarification on what they mean by Phenomena.

Ok so that first scan you posted, you do know in the top left and bottom left text literally said he fell to the 3rd Dimension right? That sounds pretty contradictory to that line of him going to the 4th dimension with the machine. Ok, there's something at least for proof that Phenomena can equate to universe so we got that out of the way. That third scan is the same as the first scan, I already addressed that.
 
I'll comment tomorrow. Feeling sick tonight due to stress. And I wanted to chat with Aeyu some more.
 
if you're referring to the time increase, possibilities and probabilities increase. I still need the proof on the Nopon Archsage saying there's as many universes or worlds as there are possibilities. And even then, that's like 2-B at best since it's just an ever growing multiverse, not an infinite universe.
 
Didn't you already agree with the fact that possibilities equate to universes earlier? Also, it would be an infinite amount of universes, the possibilities are being counted individually, not as one collective unit.
 
I said I agreed with phenomenon being equated to universes, not possibilities. Again i said they're just an ever growing number of possibilities if the whole "as time increases, the possibilities increase" is anything to go by. That's not infinite, otherwise Dragon Ball Heroes would've been 2-A by now.
 
In that same scan, phenomenas are still being described as possibilities.

Then what's the difference between an limitless amount of possibilities that exist as universes and an infinite amount of universes?
 
First of all, I thought you played the first Xenoblade game and that he is indeed the true God of the Xenoblade Chronicles multiverse. Quotes, I am Monado, I have been here since the beginning, and I will proclaim, the end. He is the true Monado and that means he is Shulk's Monado, Zanza's Monado, and Meyneth's Monado all in one. He also never had a beginning nor will he ever have an end. And I'll get to that detail later. I am the Administrative computer from a Phase Transition Facility. In other words, he is the Administrative Computer of the Conduit and thus the source of its power. So when Zanza/Klaus/The Architect said "Divine Entity", that is Alvis. And when he says "Far Flung Dimension", he's referring to Alvis' true home.

Furthermore, before the reveal, Alvis has often talked about himself in 3rd person and left it vague by saying "The Monado" or "A higher power". Alvis is like Wave Existence in which they have a surprisingly humble and selfless personality despite technically being the true God of the multiverse. In this video Alvis explains that everything in the Universe is made of Ether, including the Passage of Fate and the Future. Which is consistent with Xenosaga literally explaining that even all time, space, and abstract concepts are made of Ether. And It was decided by a "Higher Power" that Shulk was given the ability to understand the laws of causality. Which Shulk initially assumes he meant Zanza or the Bionis, but in reality, Alvis was the one who gave him those powers and abilities as revealed later. So in other words, Alvis is the one empowering the Conduit in the same vein Wave Existence empowers the Zohar Modifier in Xenogears and U-Do empowers the Zohar in Xenosaga.

Also, you really got to follow your own logic. You're the one who first brought up Dragon Ball Heroes which has nothing to do with Xenoblade or the Xeno franchise in general. So you have no right to be so explosive just for mentioning names of other verses when you've been doing the same thing the whole time. 2nd, no one is saying the people who agreed with you aren't important or knew nothing at all. Just that overall, the people I brought up have more experience with Tier 2/1 verses in the long run and would thus know how to analyze details. And their familiarity to Xenogears/Xenosaga to boot is a plus.

Refer to this as our conversation. Xenogears seems to have at least three upper dimensions. Upper Domain > Lower Domain > Imaginary Number Domain > Real Number Domain = The Universe which has 3 spatial dimensions and the 4th dimension being time. The "falling to the 3rd dimension" comes from a misconception. There are rumors that Wave Existence was trapped inside the Zohar, but he's more so resting there to test humanity rather than actually trapped. And the Zohar is what's getting 3-dimensional humans being able to use the power of higher infinities. The scan both uses phenomenon and gets it out of the way that it equates to universes and possibilities. Also, the search bar gives you three results for "Higher Dimensions" click on those other landmarks. Also, the diagram shows the Path of Sephirot connecting the Higher Domain and the Lower Domain, it's the path that connects the plane of higher infinity. And also a plane of higher or lower infinity between the lower and upper domain respectively.

There is the entire quest, And Kos-Mos does mention having a creator and a master whom Astelle reminds her very much of. Who is her official creator and master? This from a canon official artbook officially approved by Nintendo and Monolith Soft. Several verses I won't mention but there certain popular hack and slash games here are heavily dependent on a bunch of Twitter statements and dead websites for their Universal or above ratings, so it's a massive double standard to accept those and not this. Also side note, it was mentioned that All blades in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 were created by the Architect in the "Meeting the Architect video". However, Kos-Mos and T-elos are the only blades not actually created by the Architect, but were instead transferred to Alrest. There are in game statements about Kos-Mos not originally being from Alrest, and the canon extended lore scan confirms they were created by an organization known as Vector industries.

Lastly, I know you're sick of Fiora's statement getting brought up. But everything comes back to it. There are too many statements that equate phenomena, worlds, universes, probabilities, and possibilities as all meaning the same thing. So if there's an infinite number of one of them, there's an infinite number of all of the above. Which she clearly says there's an infinite number of paths, futures, and possibilities.

Side note, Saint Seiya is 2-A based on the same two statements.
 
@Florida It says phenomenon, nowhere in the Path of Sephirot section does it remotely say possibilities.

The difference being that one is just too many to count, the chances of you counting the amount of universes being made with each phenomena are pretty slim, but it's possible. Infinite is just that, infinite, you cannot count up to infinite cause there's no end in sight for how far infinite can reach.

@DDM Oh really, you mind BRINGING PROOF that the phase transition facility somehow equates to the Conduit and a far flung dimension? Cause again any context or proof that Alvis is the one who gave Zanza the Conduit would be pretty great by now.

Alvis giving the monado to Shulk has NOTHING to do with empowering the Conduit. The Monado and the Conduit are two completely different things, you mind explaining to me where it's stated that Alvis himself is literally powering up the Conduit? Again you seem to have this common trend of not giving any proof.

Ok first off, Aeyu never said she 100% agreed with it, she said it can be 2-A, clear emphasis on that word, but she wasn't 100% confident on it since she isn't knowledgeable on the games. And her agreeing with 2-A is based on this Nopon Archsage you guys haven't remotely shown proof on and the same line I debunked like a dozen plus times. How many times must I ask you to try to debunk my point on Fiora's line being not legit for 2-A? What misconception is there when it blatantly said the Wave Existance fell into the 3rd Dimension twice in the same page? No it doesn't equate to universes AND possibilities, just universes. Where does it remotely say that Phenomena are equated to possibilities here?

Gee, being real subtle there with what verse you're referencing......

No that's a lie, there's no TOO MANY statements, there's only one that you guys have shown me, which is that phenomenon equates to universes. Possibilities and probabilities you haven't remotely proven it equates to universes.
 
@Glassman

I was talking about this one https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/2905095393/in/album-72157616593453778 the line about phenomenas is in the first few paragraphs, it says "the innate phenomena existing as a possibility in the near future."

It could be argued that it's still 2-A because there's no set limit to the amount of possibilities here. You can't count the total amount of possibilities because there is no defined limit here.
 
@Glassman

Anyway, this is literally the highlight of the XB2's origin of the Universe. Watch this cutscene and this one back to back again. There was a space-time transition even that destroyed the original universe and recreated it. Except it only happens once and at least two universes are actually born. I have posted this countless times but it doesn't sound like actually pay attention to a single word of it.

It has everything to do with the Conduit. Shulk's Universe was born from the Conduit's space-time transition event. And the same event is also what evolved Klaus and Galea into Gods with their Monados. The "Phase Transition", refers the interdimensional Big Bang the Conduit generated. It is also mentioned in the same video posted countless times about a 3rd Core Crystal that went missing in the same "Space-time transition event." It's common belief that Ontos was Alvis, but in actuality, Alvis could be much more than that. Skip to this he doesn't just say "A Administrative Computer" he says "The Administrative Computer" of the same Space-Time Transition event. And everyone with common sense knows it's the Conduit that caused it meaning the Administrative Computer would be the driving force of all it's powers. That Administrative Computer is Alvis, or the Monado.

Except she was quite literally leaning towards agreeing with it. She said if one or the other was alone, it would be vague, but the fact that both statements exist is something she said 2-A at minimum would be solid. And it wasn't "Solely" based on that statement again. Stop being narrow-minded. Going to copy it word by word. The phenomenon shift engine Zohar, in the process of selecting phenomena from the plane at 0 point -that instant of equal point of the time axis, another universe is created. A Universe exist for every existing process of selection. Process of selection is literally a definition of choices to make aka possibility. Also, The Architect described giving birth to a new Universe as "Creating a new possibility" in that same meeting the Architect video. Furthermore, this sca mentions multiple realities for every probability. Reality means universe and probability means possibility. The idea of "Infinite possibilities" only means there's one universe that can fluctuate based on an infinite number of ways only works when no big multiverse exists to begin with. But obviously, it does.

If you have a problem with Wave Existence's current tiering. Go ahead and make another thread trying to downgrade him from 1-C to 2-B or however you would like based on your analogies.

In other words, we have more statements. Actually look at the lines instead of constantly saying, "It doesn't meant that because you say so."

As for the Nopon Archsage quote, it would be easier if there was an existing entire transcript thing like the first Xenoblade had. But no one's made that yet given how huge the game is. And there's like so many hours worth of content from the Land of Challenge alone. Because there's so many challenges. But we may not need it given the Xenosaga connections are even better.
 
Ok, glad we got that out of the way now.

That's mere assumption without actual proof that it's 2-A. 2-A requires there to be an infinite number of separate space time universes. 2-B is any higher finite number of universes. Again that statement only implies something that's ever growing. You can count to a finite number no matter how big the number is. The possibility of counting there is possible, Infinite however is not possible to count.
 
@Dragon Nice ad hominem attack on me, that's totally gonna make your side more believable than mine over giving proof that can debunk my points.

You do know that entire line he said he's the administrative computer of a phase transition experiment facility. That sounds a lot more like the facility Zanza and Meyneth were in as opposed to the Conduit itself.

One of those statements that say infinite possibilities I debunked in this thread time and time again. For a man who keeps calling ME narrow-minded, you sure keep ignoring where I said to debunk my point on Fiora's claim not meaning the verse's size.

I'll do that when I'm done with my to do list for the time being.

Nice way of taking my words out of context since I didn't say it didn't mean that because I said so. I said you guys haven't given me any legit proof that backs up what you say.
 
That wasn't the point, the point is that if you're not going to remain civil while debating, one shouldn't debate here at all until they can clear their head without any hostile things to say.

The only known computer AI's that could have been the "Administrative computer" are Ontos, Logos, and Pneuma, the three core crystals. Everyone knows Logos and Pneuma are actually Malos and Pyra who are the Aegises, but they're not the "Omnipotent driving force" that grants the Conduit all of it's "Infinite power." They have the ability to draw energy from the Conduit, but neither one of them are the source of the Conduit's powers. Which leaves just Ontos. It is possible that Alvis is actually Ontos, but no one knows. And even if he was, he's still far too much of a class on his own and is "Too powerful" to be the brother of Malos and Pneuma.

Alvis on the other hand is both literally omniscient as well as being hammered in the ground as the true god tier of the Xenoblade multiverse. You didn't debunk them, you're not the word of God and you don't get to decide who debunks who. No one does. The verse's statements are elaborated upon via other sources which her statement elaborates.

I'll keep the group informed, but I doubt that's going to go through tbh. Especially if High 1-B to 1-A stuff is in order.

And I explained to you and showed you the scans, one statement literally equates the number universes to the choices to be made.
 
Well I hate my life.

I made a fairly long response and the wiki just ate it. Fantastic.

I responded to most of the links I saw as best as I could, apologies for the lack of said comment.

Based on what I've read, I disagree with the 2-A rating and support a downgrade to 2-B. The key reasons for this is the mention of quasi-infinite, not infinite, possibilities, and the keyword that people believe in infinite possibilities, but do not know of them. The mathematics the verse puts forth (as time increases, so too do possibilities) also makes me think it isn't truly infinite, just very very high.
 
Where is the word "Quasi-Infinite" even used?

Anyway, Aeyu linked me this video and quotes are.

'"I'm going to return to that place"

"What place?"

"Before the beginning of the universe, in the undulating waves of the higher dimension, all things were one. It was the waves spilling out from there that created this four-dimensional universe of ours."

"Humankind and the Souls of Humankind that were born from there are merely the leftovers from those waves."

it explicitly states

  1. it pre-existed the universe
  2. it pre-existed four-dimensionality
 
Yeah, their talking about its power saying it's almost omnipotent as an oxymoron. Not the number of universes within the multiverse, which is a different story. Also, we're adding Crimson to the group.

Anyway, going to sleep for now. But there's still a lot more upgrade stuff for the Xeno franchise.
 
I have been civil. You're the one who's throwing all of these accusations at me when at no point in this entire thread did I ever once insult you, Florida or Josh.

Ok, that has nothing to do with my point where Alvis said he was from a research facility. Which isn't the same as the Conduit which is a power source.

Nice strawman because I never said I debunked Word of God, I'm debunking your claim that Fiora's line means there exists an infinite number of universes. So once again, can you tackle my point on how Fiora's line actually means infinite universes since you're willing to keep using her statement as proof?

No it did not. Reread that Path of Sephirot paragraph, they flat out say Phenomenon when they're talking about new universes being made, not possibilities.

Ok, whatever god that thing is exists beyond the 4th Dimension (Even though the Databooks you guys keep using say it went to the 3rd dimension twice instead of the 4th Dimension so yeah). You still have not remotely given proof that Alvis is the same thing as the Wave Existance nor is there any proof you've shown me that the Zohar and the Conduit are the same thing.
 
"You don't know what the hell she's talking about" is still fairly blunt and condescending. Same with the constant "Nice Strawman" and "Nice Ad Hominen" statements. Those aren't civilized things to say either. And are "Bold accusations" in themselves. You said those things first.

It has everything to do with it, because it's implied Alvis is the one who caused the Space-Time transition event however you look at it. The Architect outright said Ontos was the one who triggered it. If Ontos is Alvis, than Alvis still triggered the Space-Time transition. More importantly, if Alvis was some random generic computer AI who happens to be just there, how did he become literally omniscient and/or how is he to powerful enough to literally be the Monado? The Conduit triggered it, Ontos triggered it, and Alvis triggered it, so it's best to say they're all one in the same. Zanza also didn't even know Alvis was the true god until after his demise. And while the Architect did foresee his own and his "Other half's demise", this was the same guy who can see anything in the multiverse aside from that one "Far Flung Dimension where the Conduit's power comes from".

And again you haven't. Because once again, emphases on Process of selecting phenomena equates to universes. There are multiple possibilities for each process of selection. Literal definitio of phenomenon is anything that can be seen, felt, or touched, or perceived. And/or every event or point to experience. So for each and everything that's a noun, whether concrete or abstract, there exists an alternate universe. Which possibilities are phenomena.

Still not convinced? I still got three more in game scans. examine Infinite potential phenomena, Infinite paths to choose from, and once again the future you just saw is but one of an infinite set of potential phenomena. We already got out of the way that phenomena refers to universes, but there's an infinite number of them too.

There is more "Above the Universe" and "Higher Dimension" statements. And the Universe was outright described as 4 dimensional and thus all universes are 4-D individually. Higher Dimension above any of them would be 5-D at bare minimum. Mentions of Higher planes and domain statements regarding dimensions here.

Between the fact that Kos-Mos and T-elos make very well connections far beyond "Cameos". The fact that a canon guidebook literally has canon backstory information on Kos-Mos having positive connections from the Xenosaga games. The fact that Kos-Mos is required for the big multiversal protagonists meeting which was well intended to expand upon the verse's lore. That's honestly more than enough proof to consider them the same multiverse. And also, regarding Conduit and Zohar, both are magnetic Abnormal matters, Perpetual Motion Machines, infinite energy engines, interdimensional gateways, "Gifts from Divine Entities", space-time reality warping tools, discovered on the Africa during the 21st century, ect. They;re literally parallel in every possible way.
 
There's a massive difference between me calling out fallacies that you've made in this thread and me being condescending. Yeah, the reason why I say that regarding Fiora is because you're too ignorant to remotely tackle my point on Fiora's line not equating to infinite universes, yet you and everyone who's supporting 2-A are using that line over and over again despite me asking all of you to actually explain how it does mean infinite universes and not that there's multiple ways to change a future.

So lemme get this straight, you say that it does have everything to do with Alvis causing it because he was the one who made the space time transition, but you also say it's from someone else who may or may not be Alvis, that goes against your confident claim that he did indeed do it if it's someone else where we have no concrete proof if they're the same person. Also Zanza and Meyneth were literal HUMANS with no super powers, and they were there when the universe got nuked, and that somehow turned them into gods. If that can happen to mere humans that were there, what's to say the same can't be said for an AI that happened to be there as well?

That is the biggest reach I've ever seen. Taking the definition of Phenomenon and somehow equating that to Possibilities with no way to say how they're connected in any way shape or form is a massive reach unless you have proof that possibilities and phenomenon in the Xeno series are treated as the same thing.

Great, we FINALLY got proof about Xenogears and Saga having a 2-A multiverse for once. That's what I was asking this entire time. Also that second clip has about as much relevance to 2-A as Fiora's line, which means it has nothing to do with it at all.

Ok so we got the africa part done with the Conduit, but I see another issue here. The Zohar's main purpose is to draw from a higher dimensional being, but the Conduit in that translation says that it has "the function of a door that could connect multiple universes." That doesn't sound like they're the exact same thing if their functions are completely different from one another.
 
Thank you, now the only problem we have left is the Zohar and the Conduit. Their functions are described as completely different from one another so it seems very iffy to have them scale off each other when they have different sets of abilities entirely.
 
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