Frick this sense of Deja Vu 2: Electric Boogaloo

New year same horrors, so to summarise:

The Main Universe for world of Darkness contains Infinite Dimensions, these Dimensions are not only transcendent of each other but are places where higher dimensional beings come from such as the Zigg'raugglurr.

Mages don't scale except at 5th tier and above where they can affect the [Platonic] Concepts of Time and Space.

The Angels created all Existence, including the Supernal and the Abyss which contains all truth and lies as Platonic Truths and Archetypal lies, additionally they created the One, Two and Three, to the point that contradictions were all true.

The Greatest of the Angels, Highest Angel of the Highest housewas nothing to Jehovah, the First Born ELOHIM.

However, even Jehovah is subject to the Supreme being, The One Giver, The Unmoved Mover, The Ancient One.

Infinite dimensions "around", which doesn't settle well with me. This sounds more like alternate dimensions showing a shadow of possibility or some aspect of the planet, kind of like how it mentions at the bottom Mars and Venus have Spirit Wilds, hinting at the possibility for life on these planets. These aren't axes of movement.

This also speaks of transcending and descending, which doesn't make much sense to me if this was meant in a hierarchy, "dimensions entirely transcend the ones below" sort of way. What denotes a higher or lower plane? How is it higher or lower? The mention of fourth dimension for the Ziggs does feel better both sorely lacking.

I won't get into the baggery of Platonical Concepts and such because I won't act like I know much about them.

It's definitely talking about higher dimensions, as there is a spell to back it up where if you roll more successes you can see into a higher dimension and it goes out of its way to omit a limit.

There's also the statement that Creation had near-infinite levels of meaning.

Also, the reason why I disagree with Dimensions meaning alternate dimensions, is that WoD is very consistent (As far as I've seen) in calling the two Realms and Dimensions, and naturally, in that list you don't list something twice "Alternate Universes and Alternate Universes" so a Synonym seems weird.

fine

It is not, at least not the quote you linked in the OP. The dimensions being talked about in that aren't axes of movement, they are literally just alternate dimensions of the planet Earth in the spirit realm, like pocket realities.

The link in your comment, on the other hand, doesn't really imply infinity. The only thing it says is that you can pay two successes instead of one for each sense that you want to share, but only if you'd be sensing something utterly unnatural. Hence calling the ones that require only 1 "normal earthly senses", and the ones requiring 2 "truly unearthly". A lack of stated limit doesn't matter, there's no correlation to looking into even higher dimensions in the text or a higher cost for trying this.

The second link doesn't give me much. What are "meanings"? Nothing related to dimensions as far as I can see. How does "a sword may also be a rose, a song, a philosiphy" translate into dimensional axes of movements? It just means everything was more than one thing and it was all of these at the same time, kinda like some odd quantum superposition.

Am not entirely sure of that, as that could simply be a matter of multiple words to make things easier to understand, or is there anything indicating they aren't synonyms?

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

It is not, at least not the quote you linked in the OP. The dimensions being talked about in that aren't axes of movement, they are literally just alternate dimensions of the planet Earth in the spirit realm, like pocket realities.

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However, I did address this, you wouldn't list something twice, it makes no logical sense, and as well, like I said, WoD is consistant with it's wording for Higher dimensions and alternate Realms/Universes.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

The link in your comment, on the other hand, doesn't really imply infinity. The only thing it says is that you can pay two successes instead of one for each sense that you want to share, but only if you'd be sensing something utterly unnatural. Hence calling the ones that require only 1 "normal earthly senses", and the ones requiring 2 "truly unearthly". A lack of stated limit doesn't matter, there's no correlation to looking into even higher dimensions in the text or a higher cost for trying this.

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However, it does, it literally gives the example of the 4th Dimensions and says you can make that number go higher.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

The second link doesn't give me much. What are "meanings"? Nothing related to dimensions as far as I can see. How does "a sword may also be a rose, a song, a philosiphy" translate into dimensional axes of movements? It just means everything was more than one thing and it was all of these at the same time, kinda like some odd quantum superposition.

Click to expand...

For that one, I didn't say Dimensions, I said levels, layers, what have you.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

Am not entirely sure of that, as that could simply be a matter of multiple words to make things easier to understand, or is there anything indicating they aren't synonyms?

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With the balance of probability, yes, they aren't synonyms, considering the book specifically uses words relating to dimensionality which would only apply to literal higher dimensions such as:

Dimensions beyond human Perception is the most blatant.

Polydimensional

Multidimensional Geometry is also extremely blatant.

Pandimensional Metaverse

Hyperdimensional

As well when it talks about Alternate Dimensions it uses the word "Realms".

Listing something twice is not actually impossible, nor that uncommon. Just see "Hogwartz School of Witchcraft and Wizardry" as an easy example. The consistency also doesn't matter when the description in the bit of text doesn't sound at all like a further axis of movement, like "Spirit Wilds" and it's relation to potential life in mars or venus. Sounds much more like other dimensions, whatever their size, spiritually/meaningfully related to the planet they connect to.

Where does it say it can go higher? Omiting a maximum number of successes you can add is not saying you can go higher. The only mention of going higher is the difficulty of the willpower role, which is unrelated to this because it is meant to evoke the Sorcerer keeping his sanity after seeing something "unearthly" and mind boggling. Assuming this must mean higher dimensions is a stretch, personally.

Yes, which is why they are unimportant. This is about pure dimensional superiority, and objects having multiple meanings is unrelated to this.

First one doesn't work. Dimension was also used for those different words mentioned in the link in your OP, even for stuff that in no way sounds like it'd be a higher dimension. Humanity obviously can't perceive a pocket reality in a spirit realm that they can't perceive or know is there.

I won't be quick to judge the polydimentional one without context, but it seems more legit than everything else.

Same for multidimensional geometry thingy.

Pan only refers to "of all", which still works with the dimensions in your OP that sound much more like pocket realms.

Last one makes me rather unsure as it is referring to a space bigger inside than outside, which has nothing to actually do with dimensions as far as I am aware.

Calling Matter and Time a realm? Uuuuh... Try and be more consistent because I am getting confused. Does realm equate something like another universe/pocket reality and dimension like, axis of movement? Is that it?

>Listing something twice is not actually impossible, nor that uncommon. Just see "Hogwartz School of Witchcraft and Wizardry" as an easy example.

For Witchcraft and Wizardry, those are actually two different things, Wikipedia does it more justice then I can, but they are who different things separate from each other in many ways. Even in the verse and not out of verse, Wizardary and Witchcarft are gender distinctions, hence why Females are called "Witches" and Males are called "Wizards".

>The consistency also doesn't matter when the description in the bit of text doesn't sound at all like a further axis of movement, like "Spirit Wilds" and it's relation to potential life in mars or venus.

Those are Shade Realms, that has nothing to do with the Dimensions part, it relates to the Realms part, hence them calling them "realms" which actually adds further to them not being "dimensions".

Spirit Wilds are a location in the Umbrae, The Spirit Wilds is where things like the Fae exist.

>Where does it say it can go higher? Omiting a maximum number of successes you can add is not saying you can go higher. The only mention of going higher is the difficulty of the willpower role, which is unrelated to this because it is meant to evoke the Sorcerer keeping his sanity after seeing something "unearthly" and mind boggling. Assuming this must mean higher dimensions is a stretch, personally.

While this is a fair assumption, the most basic of successes (2) was given the denotation of the 4th Dimension, 2 successes is incredibly low, for example, to get to successes can be done with 1 die roll, usually when you make such a roll you'd roll anywhere from 1 (Which is impossible to do as 2 is the minimum for a person who put no points anywhere) to 10 and above.

>Yes, which is why they are unimportant. This is about pure dimensional superiority, and objects having multiple meanings is unrelated to this.

It more so relates to the layers of reality but we can come back to this point later on.

>First one doesn't work. Dimension was also used for those different words mentioned in the link in your OP, even for stuff that in no way sounds like it'd be a higher dimension. Humanity obviously can't perceive a pocket reality in a spirit realm that they can't perceive or know is there.

I'm not sure what you mean here, if you mean that they cannot perceive a Pocket reality then that's completely against the entire point of what the text and the history of WoD brings up, as stated, WoD doesn't mince its words, as shown above multiple times, and additionally, it can't, Mages count among humanity and naturally, they can see the Spirit Worlds, they go there constantly, however, as the 4th Dimension scan indicates, Higher dimensions aren't the same, you need 7 successes which is fairly high to not go Quiet (Insane) and as it says, the higher in Dimensions and perception you go the more successes you need to not go Quiet.

In summary, Mages can see alternate universes, they do it all the time, but they can't see into Higher dimensions on their own.

>Pan only refers to "of all", which still works with the dimensions in your OP that sound much more like pocket realms.

Not really, Pandimensional would mean it reaches into all Higher and Lower dimensions, Pan meaning "All", so "All-Dimensional" which makes sense when it comes to making a good nuke.

>Last one makes me rather unsure as it is referring to a space bigger inside than outside, which has nothing to actually do with dimensions as far as I am aware.

It does have to do with Dimensions but admittedly, it comes from an ignorent idea of Dimensions, it mostly spawned from Doctor Who, where "Tardis space" (Bigger on the Inside) being 4th and Higher dimensional.

The idea that with 4-D space you could fit infinite 3-D things within it and never fill it up.

>Calling Matter and Time a realm? Uuuuh... Try and be more consistent because I am getting confused. Does realm equate something like another universe/pocket reality and dimension like, axis of movement? Is that it?

In this case, no, it's talking about the Shard Realms, these are the representation of the Mage's magic as a realm, so it's not to do with literal properties of Time, Matter etc. it's to do with the Mage's magic schools hence why you see Prime.

Again, just define simply. What does realm mean and dimension mean if they are "used" consistently?

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

Again, just define simply. What does realm mean and dimension mean if they are "used" consistently?

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Realm is either another Universe or a reality relating to something such as Magic or it may refer to the Umbrae or Supernal Realms.

Dimensions is as it is on the can, Higher and Lower dimensions.

If you want, there is likely more I can do to find support for this, would me finding "Dimensional Axis" prove my hypothesis to you?

I don't think so.

Honestly, all of the dimension stuff is not convincing at all to me with what I've seen so far.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

I don't think so.
Honestly, all of the dimension stuff is not convincing at all to me with what I've seen so far.

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Specifically, what are you looking for? That way I maybe able to give you what you want.

I am not convinced at all that dimensions in the relevant scans you gave relate at all to actual dimensional axes or that it is as consistent as you think.

I can agree with the idea that there are higher dimensions, but how many and whether they are any superior is another thing entirely.

As always, the platonic stuff I prefer not dealing with.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

I am not convinced at all that dimensions in the relevant scans you gave relate at all to actual dimensional axes or that it is as consistent as you think.
I can agree with the idea that there are higher dimensions, but how many and whether they are any superior is another thing entirely.

As always, the platonic stuff I prefer not dealing with.

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Like I said, would me getting scans for Dimensional axis prove to you they are Higher dimensions?

You can post anything more that you think relevant and I'll see if it makes me change my mind.

pai

I'll just address the thing about infinite dimensions, since it's the only point in contention from what I see, and it forms the basis of the argument for proving WoD is High 1-B (again, just from what I gather).

Anyways, I think realms and dimensions being used as separate terms in the text would normally make the basis of good case for those being higher dimensions, but considering the underlying context of the statement, I don't think I agree. Basically, this statement is in a section of the book talking about Otherworlds, which are the spiritual realms surrounding the earth caused by things in the physical realm casting shadows into the astral plane, and more specifically, it's talking about the Shard Realms that are created when the planets of the solar system are the ones casting those shadows, so the text randomly mentioning higher dimensions seems a tad strange and out of place here.

Furthermore, there are several instances in this same section where "dimensions" refer to other planes of existence, and not higher spatial dimensions, as seen here, and there's even one instance where the word is used to refer to both of these things in the same paragraph (More specifically, in the description of the Shard Realm of Time in Saturn - itself called a dimension - where all dimensions are temporal dimensions and one travels through time even by standing still), so I would be warry of using "but it makes no logical sense for it to refer to the same thing twice", given all this. It just seems like a tautology, to me.

There is a mention of Earth's shard realms realms forming an "extradimensional hierarchy" around the the planet, but nonetheless, it's way too vague to form anything concrete, at least in my view.

Ultima Reality said:

Furthermore, there are several instances in this same section where "dimensions" refer to other planes of existence, and not higher spatial dimensions, as seen here, and there's even one instance where the word is used to refer to both of these things in the same paragraph (More specifically, in the description of the Shard Realm of Time in Saturn - itself called a dimension - where all dimensions are temporal dimensions and one travels through time even by standing still), so I would be warry of using "but it makes no logical sense for it to refer to the same thing twice", given all this. It just seems like a tautology, to me.

There is a mention of Earth's shard realms realms forming an "extradimensional hierarchy" around the the planet, but nonetheless, it's way too vague to form anything concrete, at least in my view.

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From what I can tell from the text it seems that the above quotes are from "Infinite Tapestry", and while it is more than fair to use it as a counter, there is still this does not disprove my arguement about it making very little sense to list the same thing off twice if it didn't want to convey that there is a difference.

You even added to my example about the Extradimensional hierarchy part, although, I wouldn't be able to comfirm or deny these as it has been months since I've last read through Infinite Tapestry and there has been many books since then.

From what I can tell from the text it seems that the above quotes are from "Infinite Tapestry", and while it is more than fair to use it as a counter, there is still this does not disprove my arguement about it making very little sense to list the same thing off twice if it didn't want to convey that there is a difference.

They are from Infinite Tapestry, yeah. Same book where the "infinite realms and dimensions" are mentioned, and from the same section as it as well.

Well, as I said, this can easily be a tautology, which is the act of repeating different words that mean the same thing to further convey the core of a phrase, pretty much in the same vein as a pleonasm, in that it can be used as a literary device and doesn't necessarily indicate an error of syntax.

There are other examples of similar statement in the book as well, such as the one saying that "pocket Realms and dimensions" were isolated in the astral plane as a result of spiritual storms, with the descriptor in this case applying to both terms, given how "realms" is in uppercase in that sentence.

Ultima Reality said:

There are other examples of similar statement in the book as well, such as the one saying that "pocket Realms and dimensions" were isolated in the astral plane as a result of spiritual storms, with the descriptor in this case applying to both terms, given how "realms" is in uppercase in that sentence.

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Is this not a similar case? There is easily multiple interpretations for that statement such as it merely talking about Realms that pre-exist in the Umbrae and Dimensions are either higher dimensions which have been sealed off for good due to the nuking which occured or they could be alterate dimensions going by what you have shown, sealing of other Universes in the Infinite Multiverse.

Additionally, I have found a statement in that book about hierarchies; "The Gate of Reason is the opposite, dealing with rationality, tangibility, linearity, hierarchical structures, task-oriented activities and things that can be proven with logic. Most High Umbrood know that they gain power through human belief, power that was lost when mankind (under the influence of the Order of, ahem, Reason) began to place rational thinking above all else, and try to encourage irrationality from their remote mountaintops."

What do you think the chances are that someone thought of an infinite hierarchy? If we are extremely ungenerious and say 1/infinity, then we have that very idea existing in the Supernal or the Abyss.

Also, I found that statement, and it backs up what I am saying about the Dimensions around the Earth being higher dimensions, as it states: "Earth is vibrant with life. Billions of humans inhabit its surface in the physical world. Beyond the Gauntlet, dozens of dimensions exist outside human perception, populated with countless spirits, concepts, and ephemera. Each of the other planets in our solar system casts a shadow into the spirit world, but not one of them has a presence as extensive as the extradimensional hierarchy surrounding our own."

This statement is clearly talking about the same thing as the infinite dimensional statement, proving my interpretation to be the most likely.

Also if I remember correctly, there is a statement about the Multiverse stating that the Multiverse contains all human imagination as real.

Is this not a similar case? There is easily multiple interpretations for that statement such as it merely talking about Realms that pre-exist in the Umbrae and Dimensions are either higher dimensions which have been sealed off for good due to the nuking which occured or they could be alterate dimensions going by what you have shown, sealing of other Universes in the Infinite Multiverse.

And that's where my point stands. I don't see any indication that those are higher dimensions in the text, and given the several instances where the word is used as a synonym for "realms" in the same section as the statement you linked (Sometimes in the same sentence, mostly to break repetition), there is a strong possibility that "realms" and "dimensions" are just separated to form a tautology and reinforce the sentence's proposition, like I said. So it just feels too uncertain to highball.

Additionally, I have found a statement in that book about hierarchies; "The Gate of Reason is the opposite, dealing with rationality, tangibility, linearity, hierarchical structures, task-oriented activities and things that can be proven with logic. Most High Umbrood know that they gain power through human belief, power that was lost when mankind (under the influence of the Order of, ahem, Reason) began to place rational thinking above all else, and try to encourage irrationality from their remote mountaintops."

I'd say that statement needs to further define what exactly it means regarding that, since "hierarchy" is a really vague term that doesn't necessarily have to mean an hierarchy of layers, or greater space containing one another or what have you. In this case, the statement is really wide and refers to hierarchies in a sense of an ordered sequence of members, which doesn't really help it, since we don't tend to accept statements of boundlessness such as this one unless they specify the things included.

What do you think the chances are that someone thought of an infinite hierarchy? If we are extremely ungenerious and say 1/infinity, then we have that very idea existing in the Supernal or the Abyss.

Well, again, we tend to treat statements like that with a handful of salt and tons of skepticism, unless they are further elaborated upon. At most I can see a "likely far higher" here, since WoD is one of those series which love to throw around those all-encompassing statements like they're candy.

Ultima Reality said:

Well, again, we tend to treat statements like that with a handful of salt and tons of skepticism, unless they are further elaborated upon. At most I can see a "likely far higher" here, since WoD is one of those series which love to throw around those all-encompassing statements like they're candy.

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More like it's Halloween

And the last bit which in my mind cements my interpretation as being the correct one.

Huh, didn't see that.

Yeah, I've pointed out that this statement was a thing, but like I said, it's too vague to warrant anything concrete, since "hierarchy" by itself is a vague term when there is no elaboration to the exact specifics of it. It could refer to several other things aside from the existential order (or level, layer, whatever you want to call it) in which the shard realms reside.

Ultima Reality said:

Huh, didn't see that.
Yeah, I've pointed out that this statement was a thing, but like I said, it's too vague to warrant anything concrete, since "hierarchy" by itself is a vague term when there is no elaboration to the exact specifics of it. It could refer to several other things aside from the existential order (or level, layer, whatever you want to call it) in which the shard realms reside.

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Since the two statements come from the same book and are discussing the same topic, we have no reason to separate them.

From the two statements together we get:

Dimensions = Higher Dimensions

These dimensions are in a hierarchy

There are infinite of them.

Also, I did give an alternate example for High 1-B in the form of continous transcendence that is a rule for WoD's realms.

Udlmaster said:

Since the two statements come from the same book and are discussing the same topic, we have no reason to separate them.

From the two statements together we get:

Dimensions = Higher Dimensions

These dimensions are in a hierarchy

There are infinite of them.

Click to expand...

It's not that I am separating them, but moreso that the use of the word "dimensions" doesn't really support the hierarchy being one of existential levels, as spatial dimensions are not related to layers of reality or anything of the sort unless explicitly stated in-verse; they are just axes of movement, as you are well aware of. As previously said, the scan is vague and doesn't really tell us about what exactly the hierarchy entails, with that in mind.

Besides, the paragraph where the "extradimensional hierarchy" is mentioned pretty obviously uses the word "dimensions" to refer to the realms cast into the spiritual by each celestial body, given how it states that entities live in them and starts talking about Shard Realms right after mentioning the "dozens of dimensions" that reside in the astral world. The Shard Realms themselves are planes of existence that exist defined by geometric dimensions (or at least some of them are), as shown by Saturn's Shard Realm of Time, where all dimensions are explicitly temporal instead of spatial.

So extending this argument to its logical conclusion here (Not necessarily saying that this is what you are proposing, mind you), it results in the higher dimensions being comprised of dimensions, which is... well, whack.

Udlmaster said:

Also, I did give an alternate example for High 1-B in the form of continous transcendence that is a rule for WoD's realms.

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I know of this scan, yeah, although I'd need some evidence that these planes exist in different levels of reality in relation to one another, and that this hierarchical relationship applies to all realms in the setting, as opposed to just a specific set of realms in it.

>It's not that I am separating them, but moreso that the use of the word "dimensions" doesn't really support the hierarchy being one of existential levels

Then what other hierarchy is there between higher dimensions? The mere mention of Dimensions as Extradimensional hierarchies objectively proves they are, to ignore that would be to plead ignorance.

>they are just axes of movement, as you are well aware of. As previously said, the scan is vague and doesn't really tell us about what exactly the hierarchy entails, with that in mind.

I already debunked that as you are well aware of, how could it be an axis of movement if there's an entire race of higher dimensional beings who come from it?

>Besides, the paragraph where the "extradimensional hierarchy" is mentioned pretty obviously uses the word "dimensions" to refer to the realms cast into the spiritual by each celestial body

No, it really doesn't. This is a conflation which is totally wrong by the mere use of the English language, Extradimensional is demonstrably proof of something being higher dimensionality, not alternate Universes. The Extradimensional Hierarchy statement and the Infinite Dimensional statement prove my view on there being infinite dimensions, at this point this is contrarianism for its own sake.

>I know of this scan, yeah, although I'd need some evidence that these planes exist in different levels of reality in relation to one another, and that this hierarchical relationship applies to all realms in the setting, as opposed to just a specific set of realms in it.

You just posited that the Hierarchy is to do with realms, I've proven that these realms transcend each other, infinite transcendent hierarchy.

"I know of this scan, yeah, although I'd need some evidence that these planes exist in different levels of reality in relation to one another, and that this hierarchical relationship applies to all realms in the setting, as opposed to just a specific set of realms in it."

A kindly reminder which scan this is?

And thanks Ultima, I knew I was looking for a word but I forgot it was Tautology. I think you've put down succulently what I wanted to say. Far Higher is completely okay on my side too.

Then what other hierarchy is there between higher dimensions? The mere mention of Dimensions as Extradimensional hierarchies objectively proves they are, to ignore that would be to plead ignorance.

My point is that the argument that equates higher dimensions to hierarchies of layers in this case hinges on the idea that those two notions are equivalent to each other, which is a false assumption. I'll address the point you made about hierarchies later on in this post, so feel free to skip this part if you wish.

Now, I know that you have a scan that's supposed to back-up dimensions being levels of existence in WoD, speaking of which...

I already debunked that as you are well aware of, how could it be an axis of movement if there's an entire race of higher dimensional beings who come from it?

You are referring to this, no? You've shown this to me on Discord, and I've responded by saying that this statement was also too vague to infer anything close to your proposals. The scan doesn't state that the Zigg'raugglur come from some higher realm of existence called the "fourth dimension", just that they can operate and work across "the reputed fourth dimension", which can easily mean that they can move across higher axes of movement.

Basically, the text assigning ordinal positions to dimensions is not necessarily proof that they are realms of existence without more context. Time is often coloquially referred to as "the fourth dimension", yet it is always defined as being just a direction or similar, obviously not a realm (Just an example btw, don't take it too literally)

No, it really doesn't. This is a conflation which is totally wrong by the mere use of the English language, Extradimensional is demonstrably proof of something being higher dimensionality, not alternate Universes. The Extradimensional Hierarchy statement and the Infinite Dimensional statement prove my view on there being infinite dimensions.

"Extradimensional" can simply mean something outside of the normal reality, from the point of view of whoever makes the statement, and this descriptor definitely applies to the shard realms, since they reside in the spiritual plane apart from the physical world. It doesn't necessarily indicate dimensionality, again, not without further context.

Furthermore, the "dimensions" mentioned here being just realms of existence is already made blatantly obvious by how the text mentions that there are spirits and entities living in them. Considering the scan you previously posted (The one which supposedly proved that dimensions in WoD are actual places and higher planes of existence) had its fair share of holes in terms of how you interpreted it, I am still unconvinced.

at this point this is contrarianism for its own sake.

Is that so? My interpretations of the text are simply different from yours, and what is obvious to you is probably not so obvious to me. I am not trying to actively oppose the verse.

You just posited that the Hierarchy is to do with realms, I've proven that these realms transcend each other, infinite transcendent hierarchy.

The scan you posted simply mentions the existence of higher and lower realms, and that's not enough evidence for anything Tier 1, unless it is proved that each of the higher realms trivialize or stand in a greater ontological level than the ones below them, otherwise they can easily be viewed as locales that are "stacked" on top of each other but are all of roughly the same existential scale.

I am fairly sure I once read a book where Heaven was referred to as a higher dimension, while Hell was a lower dimension diametrically opposed to it, yet they were the same size and these descriptors didn't refer to their existential status, just their positions in relation to each other. The same thing can be the case here, unless you prove the contrary.

Now, I am aware that the same scan states that Mages can "transcend" into higher planes and similar descend into lower ones as they bend existence, but I should note that "transcendence" tends to be a bit of a vague buzzword and always needs more context in these cases, since it simply means "to go beyond" and doesn't necessarily indicate greater levels of existence. Someone could say "they transcended into another universe" and that'd be a perfectly valid sentence.

This goes back to that question about "kinds of hierarchy which you made: Hierarchies are simply frameworks where things are arranged in an order where they can be identified as "above" or "below" other things by whatever arbitrary qualities they may have, and that alone doesn't entail an infinite difference between its members. The natural numbers (1, 2, 3...) are a hierarchy, yet the difference between 1 and 2 isn't infinite; hence, the realms could still be an hierarchy even if they were just stacked upon each other, instead of existing in different orders of reality altogether.

>You are referring to this, no? You've shown this to me on Discord, and I've responded by saying that this statement was also too vague to infer anything close to your proposals. The scan comfirms: There's a fourth dimension. It is a layer of reality. Higher beings come from it. Mages are scared of these beings.

How is it too vague, are you going to actually propose an actual arguement or are you just going to default to "Too vague " as a petty dismissal of my argument.

>The scan doesn't state that the Zigg'raugglur come from some higher realm of existence called the "fourth dimension", just that they can operate and work across "the reputed fourth dimension", which can easily mean that they can move across higher axes of movement.

How can you come from an axis of movement? That makes no sense at all. Your argument for contraianism is moving into the absurd.

If they didn't come from the Higher dimensional realm that is the 4th dimension, which everyone with any knowledge of Science fiction would recognize as such, they cannot come from a axis of movement or they'd be 1-D beings, which is just flat out wrong.

>Furthermore, the "dimensions" mentioned here being just realms of existence is already made blatantly obvious by how the text mentions that there are spirits and entities living in them.

The Shard Realms are Extradimensional, the book states they are multiple times, and Spirits and such entities are called by the Technocratic Union as "EDEs" "Extradimensional entities".

>The scan you posted simply mentions the existence of higher and lower realms, and that's not enough evidence for anything Tier 1, unless it is proved that each of the higher realms trivialize or stand in a greater ontological level than the ones below them, otherwise they can easily be viewed as locales that are "stacked" on top of each other but are all of roughly the same existential scale.

They literally state they transcend each other the further away from the Centre the Mage gets, not that there is merely higher and lower realms.

>Now, I am aware that the same scan states that Mages can "transcend" into higher planes and similar descend into lower ones as they bend existence, but I should note that "transcendence" tends to be a bit of a vague buzzword and always needs more context in these cases, since it simply means "to go beyond" and doesn't necessarily indicate greater levels of existence. Someone could say "they transcended into another universe" and that'd be a perfectly valid sentence.

"Ascension: Transcendence to a higher state of existence. Seen as both a personal goal (in which the mage achieves self-Ascension)"

There you have it, transcendence means to go to a higher existence.

Okay, what is a higher existence?

Entities from Worm are outright compared to 4-D tesseracts, but that isn't enough as far as I am aware.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

Okay, what is a higher existence?
Entities from Worm are outright compared to 4-D tesseracts, but that isn't enough as far as I am aware.

Click to expand...

What more do you actually want? Seriously, the goal post to being thrown out.

It is not being thrown out. I thought you already knew the requirements for actually being considered a qualitatively higher existence or any of the other stuff is grueling to say the least unless there's something really explicit. Granted, perhaps Ultima would think that is actually much more solid.

What happens when a Mage achieves Ascension?

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:

It is not being thrown out. I thought you already knew the requirements for actually being considered a qualitatively higher existence or any of the other stuff is grueling to say the least unless there's something really explicit. Granted, perhaps Ultima would think that is actually much more solid.
What happens when a Mage achieves Ascension?

Click to expand...

What it says, they transcend to a higher reality.

If you want proof to show superior it is, Infinity is considered the 10th Sphere, that sphere is the Sphere required for Transcendence.

How is it too vague, are you going to actually propose an actual arguement or are you just going to default to "Too vague " as a petty dismissal of my argument.

I did propose an actual argument, though. Everything below the phrase that you quoted is the argument, I didn't just say "it's too vague" and leave it at that. Read the whole post before starting to write down your response.

How can you come from an axis of movement? That makes no sense at all. Your argument for contraianism is moving into the absurd.

You missed my point by a fairly wide margin there. I never said that they literally came from an axis of movement, I said that going by what the text states, they don't come from a higher plane of existence identified as "the fourth dimension", and are moreso just beings from another realm which can operate on a higher axis of movement. Nothing in this scan indicates that "the fourth dimension" is a place which the Zigg'raugglur inhabit.

The Shard Realms are Extradimensional, the book states they are multiple times, and Spirits and such entities are called by the Technocratic Union as "EDEs" "Extradimensional entities".

That doesn't equate them to higher dimensions, for reasons that I've already outlined.

They literally state they transcend each other the further away from the Centre the Mage gets, not that there is merely higher and lower realms.

Again: Read the whole post before starting to type out your response.

"Ascension: Transcendence to a higher state of existence. Seen as both a personal goal (in which the mage achieves self-Ascension)"

That sounds like it has potential as evidence. Do you have the specific scan where this is stated? Or at the very least the book where it can be found (Alongside the book where this one comes from). I know I am probably sounding really obnoxious regarding this, right now, but the wiki recently officialized a "scans or btfo" policy, so that kind of stuff is necessary.

>I did propose an actual argument, though. Everything below the phrase that you quoted is the argument, I didn't just say "it's too vague" and leave it at that. Read the whole post before starting to write down your response.

I did, I responded to your entire post. It would be hard for me to do that if I didn't read it, and yes, to boil your argument down, it's either "too vague" or "Nah, it's this".

>You missed my point by a fairly wide margin there. I never said that they literally came from an axis of movement, I said that going by what the text states, they don't come from a higher plane of existence identified as "the fourth dimension", and are moreso just beings from another realm which can operate on a higher axis of movement.

You're pushing the statement to it's most illogical extremes. What else is called "The fourth dimension"? They obviously mean the higher dimensional Fourth Dimension, that's a very common trope throughout science fiction. And if they were "just beings from another realm", why did it state they come from the fourth dimension if it was just some random realm? If it was just some random realm, why didn't it state what that realm was?

That's because it does state where they come from, the Fourth dimension.

>Nothing in this scan indicates that "the fourth dimension" is a place which the Zigg'raugglur inhabit.

If you come from somewhere, you obviously inhabitted it.

"I'm from Earth" "I'm from New York" "I'm from Mexico" "I'm from the Fourth Dimension"

>That doesn't equate them to higher dimensions, for reasons that I've already outlined.

Extradimensional literally means to have more then the 3 + 1 Dimensions.

And your dismissal was based on them possessing Spirits and Umbrood, who I just proved are Extradimensional along with the reality they occupy.

>Read the whole post

"The scan you posted simply mentions the existence of higher and lower realms, and that's not enough evidence for anything Tier 1, unless it is proved that each of the higher realms trivialize or stand in a greater ontological level than the ones below them, otherwise they can easily be viewed as locales that are "stacked" on top of each other but are all of roughly the same existential scale."

Your issue was with them being the same existential scale "merely higher or lower realms", when I proved they transcend each other, do I need to define "the" and "because" too? These are accepted wiki terms, why is there a sudden effort to prove something that's in the dictionary and the site.

>That sounds like it has potential as evidence. Do you have the specific scan where this is stated?

Here you go.

This seems fine.

5(6)-2

I'm still finding it absurd that I'm having to define transcendence as if any verse has to do this, considering verses like "I will seal the Heavens" gets High 1-B and 1-A based on infinite dimensions being called in relation to length, width and breadth, so literally just vectors of movement.

But nah, that gets High 1-B, WoD though? Yeah that has to define transcendence after I proved it was greater than infinity.


Cthulhu Mythos, that gets High 1-B to 1-A+ on their dimensions stacking infinities.


WoD should be treated the same not to this absurd level of BS that it always gets when it tries to do anything, goal post should be equal not in the next star system when it comes to this one verse.

This sounds reasonable from what I can tell so far.

It's actually I Shall Seal the Heavens - but that's just a part of the entire verse.

Looks legit, count me on board Udl