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Only Sora, Donald and Goofy should scale to 3A

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LordWhis

LordWhis

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Sora, Donald, Goofy and amped Xenahort should be the only 3A characters in KH-verse. Everyone else should max out at High 4C.

None of the other heroes of light or Organization members ever demonstrated that they scale to them. Sora, Donald and Goofy obviously got stronger just before the final battle. And Xenahort of course got Kingdom Hearts and the x-blade.

Base Xenahort stomped Mickey, Riku and pre-scala ad caelum Sora- any of them scaling to Amped Xenahort is laughable.

If a random robot, 2 amateur Keyblade wielders and friggin Isa were universe-busters why on earth would anyone want the Kingdom Hearts in the first place ?

How is Base Xemnas somehow suddenly a universe buster when an amped version of him was a starbuster a few months ago ?

How did all of the organization members spontaneously jump up by 40 orders of magnitude ?

And how did Xaldin and Lexaeus go from being the 3rd strongest members of the organization to septillions of times weaker than the next weakest member in a matter of weeks ?
 
See here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3501218
 
1: How exactly? They just trained before it, like everyone else

2: No, he didn´t, he just used Time Manipulation on Mickey, which falls as hax, not AP

3: Because it´s via Powerscaling, meaning that they themselves don´t have to be able to actually destroy universes to be of such tiers.

4: Because he is within a new vessel, which also got to become a part of Xehanort later on in Scala Ad Caelum, so he still scales.

5: Training, once again, just like everybody else, as seen in my point no. 1

6: Same as above
 
The training thing is never stated by most people and powerscaling an entire verse to the absolute strongest version of a character who could only achieve such a feat with the completed kingdom hearts is ridiculous.

It's literally circular scaling.

Xehanort, after merging with all of his alternate selves, achieving the X-Blade and opening the door to Kingdom Hearts, can destroy and remake the entire universe... So he's 3-A.

Sora, Donald and Goofy manage to fight off Xehanort in this state in a difficult battle, nearly dying in the process and only winning after literal Power of Friendship happens. So they're 3-A at their peak, fair.

OH, BUT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE FIGHT SORA, DONALD AND RIKU BEFORE THIS IN THE STORY. wEEEEEEELL, shit. Looks like we have to take their later feat into account, ignore all freaking context centered with it, and backscale everyone to 3-A as well. **** the entire plot. Why bother with Xehanort's complex plan to attain power on a universal scale. Turns out everyone already had it! How silly of him!

In case it's not apparent, scaling like this is BS because it creates plot holes the size of Uranus in the game's entire story. The rest of the cast simply cannot be scaled to Xehanort's feat because of the entire context surrounding how he became that powerful in the first place. It's like when Dragon Ball fans try to seriously do ludicrous powerscaling based on the Tournament of Power Arc that make Krillin and Master Roshi Low 2-C.
 
Also scaling summons is EVEN WORSE because they're not canonically in any battle. We don't make every Final Fantasy Summon scale to the Final Bosses simply because you can use them in battle. The fact that they can damage is game mechanics and not a feat.
 
They are actually stated to remember being used, as we can see with Mushu and Simba (regarding the summons), so scaling to 3-A isn´t that absurd, as unlike in FF, they don´t just scale to more specific stuff

As for the scaling for the rest... Mmm... it makes sence, I actually am fine with that only scaling to Sora, Donald and Goofy for now, as there´s nothing to scale the rest to it after that.
 
That's not my point. Nobody said they were never canonically summoned the thing is they are not canonically summoned for the final boss fight.
 
Well, they scale to Sora´s power, as when he become stronger, the summons do so too, then again, making 3-A scaling to them still not crazy.

By that logic we may as well say that Sora´s spells aren´t 3-A either because they are optional.
 
Besides Matthew's random rant I do agree with him to an extent. I do believe it's likely they'll scale [eventually] , but via current feats... Not really. I do believe the Fortellers likely will scale in the future... But that's another can of worms but I did want to mention that.

Semi on-topic: It always rubbed me the wrong way we treat BBS' X-Blade as 'weaker' than KH3s... I mean sure it was "incomplete", but that was literally because Ventus was fighting against becoming one with Vanitas and that was why it was incomplete, and prior to Ventus fighting Vanitas off he had the full X-Blade.

So it makes no sense to alienate them when Xehanort never directly indicated there was a difference in power between the two keyblades. He only ever said that Ventus-Vanitas' ended in failure and that's why he went ahead and searched another way to revive it. I watched that cutscene quite a bit from DDD [because I have the game and replayed it for the lore more times than I care to admit] , then the mentioning in KH3 in case I missed it despite rewatching all the cutscenes a few times and nothing implied a power difference between the two usages of the X-Blade.

Also the fact this same keyblade can summon Kingdom Hearts and keep it around should prove they scale somewhat... Although yes I understand this may cause some holes in the scaling to a degree.
 
Well, it doesn´t affect scaling much beyond the ones that scale to the incomplete X-Blade, which would mean that Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Vanitas and Xehanort (Who still would anyways) scale to 3-A

Which could also turn Dream Drop Distance/End-game KHII Sora 3-A via scaling to Lingering Will right at the end of KHII, however, he explicitly loses his powers at the beggining of DDD (which goes after that), so that´s not a big deal, which also explains why he really is such a pain to beat

However, this means that KHII summons may be 3-A too at end-game (Which include Peter Pan & Tinker Bell, Stitch, Genie and Chicken Little, however, only Stitch as a profile as of now)
 
I don't really agree with this. I don't care for the summons being 3-A, they really shouldn't be rated as such to begin with imo and it comes off as more inconsistent for them.

The first point isn't much of a realistic complaint. Sora literally did the exact same thing where he struggled with Xemnas in KHII then him and Riku dogged on Incomplete KH Amped Xemnas right after. Literally the same case for the Ansem fight in KHI as well where Ansem still gets dogged on even with the Heart of All Worlds. Kingdom Hearts doesn't come off as a series that cares too much narratively about how dumb the powerscaling should be so this really shouldn't be counted against them. If anything, you'd need to substantiate Sora receiving a significant boost to make him dwarf every other character rather than "Oh well he just got stronger".

None of them got stomped by Xehanort, he blocked their attacks and that was it. He then Time Stopped them as well. Nothing about that is stomping.

Powerscaling makes them comparable, not at the exact same level of comparability. Their goal was to reset as well, not destroy everything. And this logic would be like saying Zelda and Castlevania characters aren't above Planet level because they don't destroy the Earth in their games. This is a DBZ mindset and it's not how scaling is treated on this wiki.

Again, this comes from the plot not giving a damn about the scaling. Xemnas technically shouldn't even be able to keep up with Sora if we're using this logic given how Sora would be on the level of Incomplete KH characters by this point but Xemnas fights on par anyways. Again, this is weak as an attempt to downplay the scaling.

I'm rather sure we don't justify AP jumps as a reason to discredit characters at a tier. Otherwise, if a character hops from Continental to Planetary via training, by this logic, we might as well say training in a week for this characters timeframe to get over thousands of times stronger is unrealistic. Fiction doesn't take into account those factoids, this mindset being used to downgrade Kingdom Hearts would literally downgrade almost any verse where a protagonist gets stronger in a series.
 
This is your first warning, Lance. We do not tolerate insults towards other members on this site.
 
Well, please don´t do that again, accounts take the whole responsabiliy for the actions themselves, and also creates distrust, by the way.
 
Okay, I think it shouldn´t be a permaban at least.

Anyways, Sora is explicitly stated to lose powers between each game.

In KHI he starts fresh, then in CoM Sora forgets because Castle Oblivion, then in KHII Sora has problems remembering because of the Organization XIII´s attemps to mess with him while sleeping, then in DDD Sora and Riku lose their powers because of the Mark of Mastery exam, and finally in KHIII Sora starts fresh once more because his heart apparently got damaged.

However, this only applies to powers, abilities and techniques respectively, not physical stats, so the point of Sora being still strong stands.
 
IMO If we go this route here is what I think: "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" for those scaling to Incomplete X-Blade [Aqua, Terra, Ven, Vanitas, Post-KH2 / Post-Possession Dream Drop Sora , Mickey as he was literally their for the fight with Vanitas, and potentially Union Cross as they already indirectly scaled to Aqua , Ephemer's invovlement, ] and likely maybe more that I'm missing which I'll mention somethings below] for the following:

  • Incomplete X-Blade was still capable of summoning Kingdom Hearts and unlocking it, and Ventus-Vanitas was weaponizing Kingdom Hearts into his attacks proving it still somewhat scales to the original X-Blade
  • Ansem tanking the Light of Kingdom Hearts to the face and still living to tell about it.
  • Xemnas scaling to Master Xehanort (BBS at least) by virtue of being roughly 1/2 of him at the time [remember KH1 Sora, after losing Roxas,is capable of fighting Xemnas and even pressuring him so even at 1/2 of his power so even KH1 Sora has reason to scale somewhat] , and as would Ansem to an extent.
  • 2.8 Riku was taking on the Demon Tower that Mickey was essentially stomped by so it's safe to say as of that point [unknown about KH3 tho] he's stronger than the Mickey from BBS as he was merely a novice with the keyblade.
  • Also... Surprisingly Data-Sora would scale [Post-Hollow Bastion] Data-Sora's Heartless was described as such a threat it would be dangerous to let loose implying it was a threat to the Keybearers outside and required Mickey's help to weaken it enough after being worn down from their fight. Also it's possible destroying the datascape should count as a feat since we now know the datascape is essentially treated as the equivalent in size to the Realm of Darkness & Light [thank you Union Cross].. Not to mention fighting Riku prior who was the embodiment of the datascape.
  • It's also safe to say DDD Riku scales even before 2.8 as he defeated Sora possessed by the Nightmare who was wielding Ventus' strength [who reminds me of Nightmare Chirithy due to a lot of familairities between the two.. theme wise and attack wise], defeated Young Xehanort who was shown relative to Post-Final Battle Aqua at least [when he had a keyblade so he's likely even stronger].
 
Wait, if the Datascape is universe sized, wouldn´t that turn the current 3-A reasoning 2-C instead?

Literally the only thing missing was the size of the "worlds" that would be affected too (as we already found out that "worlds" have their own individual time axis), but the datascape being included on the other hand is questionable at best TBH.

Anyways, outside of that, everything seems fine (except for the summons not scaling, of which I´ll wait for more input regarding that to discuss it), which appears to lead into pretty much everyone scaling to 3-A in some way or another,
 
It's nt downplay it's just pointing out that everyone being 3-A is an obvious outlier and it literally destroys the plot. If you think merely wanting the story to make sense and not ignoring it outright is downplay than I'm afraid you're unable to think fairly on the series.
 
Matthew does have a point, but so does Inverted Tempest. There doesn't seem to be a clear-cut answer to this, as it is about different perspectives.

Can somebody ask Sera EX to comment here please?
 
Here's something I never got

Even if I were to make a massive assumption jump and assume everyone was 3A.

....This would imply that they are equal to Sora and I don't think I need to explain how wrong this is.

KH is baseline 3A, other characters are clearly weaker, especially Donald and Goofy for lack of a better example

Some characters should be downscaled to 3B because all characters being equal to eachother kinda breaks the scaling as it is.
 
Schnee One said:
KH is baseline 3A, other characters are clearly weaker, especially Donald and Goofy for lack of a better example

Some characters should be downscaled to 3B because all characters being equal to eachother kinda breaks the scaling as it is.
Click to expand...
No, they are above baseline, as Xehanort´s "purge" was going to affect all "worlds" too (which are stated to be countless, of which as of now the biggest one shown is at least 4-A in size (Stitich´s "world"), so they would still backscale to just a lower degree of 3-A
 
I already addressed this. Your point was that them being universe busters would make resetting the universe null as a goal, am I correct? I assume as much because you said, "Looks like we have to take their later feat into account, ignore all freaking context centered with it, and backscale everyone to 3-A as well. **** the entire plot. Why bother with Xehanort's complex plan to attain power on a universal scale. Turns out everyone already had it! How silly of him!"

Why would it be an outlier? It's consistent for Xehanort obviously to be at this level because of how many statements Kingdom Hearts has for it being there with resetting the universe. Then Sora proceeds to block an all out attack, repeatedly hurts and tanks Xehanort's hits throughout the fight, you get the idea. Sora's not outright equal to Kingdom Hearts Amped Xehanort to begin with, but he is comparable very obviously. The same goes for Donald and Goofy, we don't have any reason to discredit the scaling. The only thing I can see your bringing up is Tier 4 feats, but they were done in previous games before Kingdom Hearts III. Not only that, the Zeus one they scaled to before was something that he more or less did casually.

Also, I do not mean to be rude but this seems to be your subtle way of indicating I'm biased and therefore my word shouldn't be taken. This would be one thing if this was just me, but you've used this as a defense to demean threads before. You did this with Udlmaster where you practically said his 1-A upgrade thread for World of Darkness was wrong because you thought Udl shouldn't be taken seriously despite other Admins in that thread agreeing his proposal wasn't wrong and you've acted similarly towards Bobiscian on multiple on these Kingdom Hearts threads. I'm going to ask if you continue this discussion, you don't pull the bias card because that's not how these discussions should go. All you would do is make this personal and that's how these threads keep doing downhill. So please, if you don't agree, give your reasoning and evidence. Don't try to say people are biased as a way of trying to end the discussion because that's not being fair to the users who are also taking their time to try to push for these things.
 
I don't really care if they get downgraded to 3-B either, I'm just against Matt saying other characters scaling is an outlier. I think the reasons are pretty obvious as to why they should be scalable. Though, I do ask if this site treats the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness as separate universes. IFthat is the case, that would make Xehanort above baseline 3-A and the others should be 3-A if that is the case.
 
No, they are above baseline, as Xehanort´s "purge" was going to affect all "worlds" too (which are stated to be countless, of which as of now the biggest one shown is at least 4-A in size (Stitich´s "world"), so they would still backscale to just a lower degree of 3-A

<Biggest one is 4A

How is that in any way relevant? That's barely 1% above baseline
 
In agreement with inverted. Alongside the fact that he does make a good point about matt. Passing it off as "calling spade a spade" is just extremely rude and disrespectful in general, this isn't the first occasion he's done this as well. But irregardless, this'll be a pointless derail. I'll follow this thread for now, Inverted seems to make the most sense here though since he elaborated on how xehanort didn't directly stomp them but showed some level of footing with them
 
Schnee One said:
<Biggest one is 4A

How is that in any way relevant? That's barely 1% above baseline
Click to expand...
Because that´s only 1 world, meaning that if you take in account that there´s a "countless" amount, it gets noticeably higher as it´s stated that there are as many worlds as stars in the sky.

It could also be actually 3-B or even 3-A if you take into account the context the Stitch movie gives (if the latter, this would turn the 3-A feat straight up 2-B, as we already discussed it and the only thing missing was the size of the "worlds" themselves being 3-A to qualify for 2-B, as we all know already that it is stated that every "world" has its own time axis).
 
Well, we use the observable universe as baseline for 3-A, and if I understood correctly, Xehanort was able to affect far more than that (the entire universe), so shouldn't other, weaker but not overwhelmingly so, characters still scale to 3-A?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, we use the observable universe as baseline for 3-A, and if I understood correctly, Xehanort was able to affect far more than that (the entire universe), so shouldn't other, weaker but not overwhelmingly so, characters still scale to 3-A?
Click to expand...
Yes, but the "worlds" aren´t a part of the universe like a planet, galaxy, etc., but rather pocket realities, as we discussed in the other thread that tried to get 2-B KH, which is why they are a very little bit above baseline as of now if we still assume the current 4-A size at best of the "worlds" assumption.

Anyways, yes, they should still scale.
 
I do not know, but it may be best if we wait for a bit more input before we close this thread.
 
What no one here understands is that there was no reason for Xehanort to be 3A WHEN he layed the smackdown on Mickey,Ricky and Sora. He was only High 4C then, he only became 3A after getting the kingdom hearts and X-blade. Even if you say Mickey and Riku are comparable to Xehanort, they would only scale to his high 4-c variant not the 3a variant with KH and x-blade who they never fought.

Scaling the budget x-blade to the actual x-blade is just too big of an assumption.

Also, this is a stomp- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYADUnhksA

But anyway it isn't relevant since Xehanort was only high 4c at this point.
 
"Ricky"

It´s Riku

Anyways, I think we already agreed on that only Sora, Donald and Goofy can scale to 3-A in lack of feats, as for the "budget" X-Blade still managed to somewhat control Kingdom Hearts itself too, if anything, it´s just a lower degree of 3-A, and it´s not a big assumption as the lore supports it being comparable to the "true" one.

And no, it wasn´t an AP stomp, Xehanort clearly just used Stopza, which is Time Stop, which is hax, so that´s not really an argument for them not being able to scale.
 
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