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READ THE OP. The Main Revisions: 2 (This is a Naruto thread)

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M3X_2.0

VS Battles
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Hmm, hello. We will discuss whether Naruto dodged from the laser or Madara's movement.

THE SPEED OF THE ATTACK IS NOT DISCUSSED HERE

Argument from here

In the first scan, it is clearly seen that when Naruto attempted to smack Madara with the rod, he was directly in front of him in that instance. After Madara summons the limbo clone, we can see Naruto is now held in place and is no longer moving. In short, this only establishes that both Madara and Naruto are facing each other directly. In addition you can see that when Naruto attacked he held the rod right above his head and brought it straight down, where it was stopped by the limbo clone. Just by looking at the image, we can tell that the rod is also directly infront of Naruto too.

Then as you can all see, on the first panel of the second scan, we find that the feat has only occurred in one panel. There seems to be no way to tell whether Naruto avoided the beam or the swing. However, there are small details that make difference and tell us what happened. I took the liberty of making them more apparent to be as clear as possible. Here is the image:

6143015-senpo ranton koga
Just so we're clear, this image has not been modified in anyway aside from highlighting details that were already there in the original scans. Nothing has been added to trick users to lead them to a conclusion that is not there.

As we can see in the image above, he have speedlines on the image that indicate the position of all things they connect to before the movement. That means it's now possible to find out just what occurred without the need of secondary sources. The most important details in the image above are the purple speedlines on Madara's beam, the red speedlines on Madara's face, and the bright red circle indicating the point of contact.

6359194-pic 1
So pay attention to the red speedlines across the left side of Madara's face. They only indicate that Madara only turned his neck one way, which establishes that Madara only went in one direction: To the right. With that out of the way we've already established 3 facts that can clearly be observed in the image. However, this alone is not enough for us to judge that Naruto dodged the beam or not. For that, we need to look at one more detail to arrive to a conclusion, the lines leading from the red circle. We can clearly see that the speedlines from beam lead directly to that red circle, and since we know the speedlines indicate the position of an object before movement... this establishes that red circle was in the beam's initial path, meaning Madara had shot through the rod before swinging his neck.

With all that done, let's go and take a look on what we have found out so far:

  • Madara and Naruto are facing each other directly.
  • The rod is directly in front of Naruto, making it directly in front of Madara by extension.
  • Madara only turned his head in one direction, the right.
  • The beam's initial path was through the rod.
With all these facts considered and common sense applied to them, it becomes apparent what really transpired in that one panel. Let's go through them one by one, starting with the first.

As already illustrated, we can see that Madara and Naruto are facing each other directly with the rod directly in between them as established in the second point. Again, Madara turned his only to the right, but as we already found out in the final point...the beam's initial path went through the rod. The same rod that is directly between Madara and Naruto. We know that Madara's intital move was not a swing because the 4th point dictates that the initial move was Madara firing the beam at the rod. For Madara to bisect Naruto with a swing means he would've had to be facing further left initially, which he was not. Instead, he was facing Naruto directly. But the image clearly shows us Madara swung, so is this a contradiction?

No, Madara must've swung after he fired it, which makes sense because if he had swung before or during firing the beam, he would've missed Naruto, and the rod wouldn't have been split. Now, Naruto avoids the beam by ducking to the left to avoid the initial shot. This is where Madara must've swung in an attempt to bisect Naruto because the beam would already be long enough to either reach or extend past Naruto. In other words, this establishes a 5th fact: That Madara would've only swung once the beam was long enough to hit Naruto, and prior this, the beam would most certainly not be long enough to hit him.

To end it all off, we have one thing remaining, and that is when Naruto avoided the beam. From the information gathered, we can confirm that Naruto clearly did not dodge the swing, but it does not address WHEN Naruto dodged it. He could've dodged it before Madara even fired the beam, but he could've also dodged it after. Fortunately, the answer is pretty simple, take a look at Madara's actions. We know that Madara's swing was only a reaction to Naruto moving out of the way. Put simply, if Naruto had moved before the beam was fired it would've not gone through the rod. In the image we can clearly see that the last thing the beam touched before the swing was the rod, indicated by the purple speedlines. This means Madara only turned the beam once it went through the rod in reaction to Naruto. This establishes a 6th fact: That Naruto must've moved when the beam was already past the rod as that's when Madara turned his head to swing at him.

In short, Naruto did dodged the beam. Furthermore, as even more proof of this, the anime affirms this sequence of events further. This cannot be denied as it's simply an extension of what the manga implies.
 
First hehe. Lemme get the popcorn


Seriously tho I agree after seeing the arguments for it and any counter arguments look like they will be hard to find
 
Out of all of this, one of the presumptions is patently false:

>The beam's initial path was through the rod


It patently is not. The staff is moved by the momentum of the swing impacting it, thus the reason it has been diverted to the left from Naruto's initial position. A straight-on cut would not swing the top of the staff so heavily nor cause it to imbalance mid-air in such a way.

Since this entire discussion relies upon this bullet-point being concrete fact, any doubt cast upon it causes the entire thesis to crumble apart. As such, it's not feasible to claim this as an 'accurate' revision since it is fallacious in the presumptions it creates in a provable manner.
 
The manga contradicts the anime, and per wiki etiquette that makes it inadmissable as supporting evidence.

The anime is usable only when it concurs with primary canon(manga), and in this case it does not.
 
  • The possibility for Madara Uchiha and the rest of the Naruto franchise characters to move at light speed has already been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Currently, any repetition of said discussion is highly annoying and not subject to discussion.
Per the Franchise-Specific Rules.
 
Ant literally gave permission. Also that rule was back for when LF wasn't even accepted as light speed which is just sad cause it obviously was
 
Perhaps he should have removed it from the franchise-specific rules before this.

I was just noting what is already stated in the Discussion Rules.
 
The anime and the manga are clearly showing two different things, so it should be disregarded compleltey and not be used as supporting evidence.

In the manga, the rod was destroyed second by the swing not the initial cut as shown by the 1 movement line in between the two pieces. Additionally Naruto dodges down to the side because Madara swept his head from left to right trying to decapitate him instead of using it as a piercing attack which is why the tails of his protector are cut as well. This is not even cut in the anime... Also if Madara's initial piercing beam missed why would Madara swing across just to miss Naruto again who already had his head down from ducking before? This is why Naruto dodging the beam makes 0 sense
 
No the rod was shown destroyed in the same scene as when LF was fired. After that scene we don't know if it was before or after in the manga since LF was already evaded and the rod was destroyed. So that left us with assumptions. But the anime fixes that and shows us that the Rod got destroyed first and we use the anime for case by case moments and this is one of them.

Also the piercing argument was already tackled on the previous thread. You can cut something by piercing it.
 
It was not debunked, your whole link was so irrelevant that me and Tata decided to ignore, as like the rod-lines evidence to counter the arguments
 
M3X said:
It was not debunked, your whole link was so irrelevant that me and Tata decided to ignore, as like the rod-lines evidence to counter the arguments
I don't care what you guys discuss on discord amongst yourself. What you're trying to do here is get us to argue the OP and you will respond with "debunked in the op". This argument is the same as before posted here dozens of times. The colored manga show the movements very clearly.
 
The OP debunks none of what has been presented, it makes assertions based solely on the movement lines from Madara's face and incorrectly evaluates them, @M3X.

Your copy-pasted argument fails to account for the more important motion lines bisecting the rod, for one, and for two Naruto's dodging lines. The argument as given in your OP needs the rod to be cut by the beam head-on yet Zemsun clearly showed that to be false.

Since the necessary condition to fulfill your claim is provably wrong, said claim cannot be upheld. That's how a conditional argument (If X then Y) works; since X is not true you can no longer claim Y.
 
As I said, I'm neutral before Naruto dodges the LF and frankly, I wish this was simply ignored (as the manga did).

The only thing I say, is that Manga literally ignored and rush completely this feat. However, I completely disagree with Naruto's AFFIRMATION to have dodged the Madara's head movement.

Literally, this involves extreme assumptions and a lack of common sense, which is almost comical to think about it!
 
AstralKing7 said:
No the rod was shown destroyed in the same scene as when LF was fired. After that scene we don't know if it was before or after in the manga since LF was already evaded and the rod was destroyed. So that left us with assumptions. But the anime fixes that and shows us that the Rod got destroyed first and we use the anime for case by case moments and this is one of them.
Also the piercing argument was already tackled on the previous thread. You can cut something by piercing it.
The anime shows a compeltley different scene. In the manga, it's clearly second because the rod is so close to the bottom piece. In the anime, when Madara's swing is compeleted the rod is a greater degree further up than the bottom half because a different scenario occured.

Yes, but the manga shows the rod clearly being sliced shown by the line at an angle along with his headband tails cut higher up.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
M3X said:
It was not debunked, your whole link was so irrelevant that me and Tata decided to ignore, as like the rod-lines evidence to counter the arguments
I don't care what you guys discuss on discord amongst yourself. What you're trying to do here is get us to argue the OP and you will respond with "debunked in the op". This argument is the same as before posted here dozens of times. The colored manga show the movements very clearly.
This is just misinterpretation. Those who can not read will repeat the same arguments debunked by the OP. At no time do the lines of motion prove that it deviated from motion, but rather from the laser
 
Im laughing at the lack of common sense here. U can't use anime cause it's different? what type of logic is that when they follow each other? Anime can be used since it is an motion/movement that's flows like the manga it's just that the manga is just a stilled page lol I'm sorry but that's hilarious. I can understand if u disagree about something but actually use something to back up yur claim
 
It's not a claim that needs backed up; the anime differs from the primary source of canon (the manga). We see what occurs on the manga page as evidenced by motion lines. The anime takes liberty with this and introduces information not presented in the manga, therefore it is non-canon.
 
About Naruto to dodge from the head movement ... It would take much more guessing about Naruto to dodge the head movement because:

• Naruto is facing him.

^ It would be bizarre to assume that Madara will simply turn his head, design his attack and only then, attempt to bisect Naruto with him (disabling the Limbo, because as stated in the databook, has Chakra of the Six Paths and thus, it would kill Limbo as well), all this while Naruto is in front of him and without it he did not have any type of reaction, mainly when he remained consistently in combat and reacted to Madara several times.
Naruto would have to stand still waiting for Madara to move, without trying at all. To assert that Madara would simply launch the attack into the void is simply ridiculous.

• The speed of the attack.

^ Madara has a much faster attack than himself. If he intends to kill Naruto, why would he use a head move against a guy who has consistently reacted to his attacks and is comparable to himself? Do you realize how ridiculous it is? Common sense simply needs to be completely ignored so that this feat has the least logic.

• Lines of movement indicate that Naruto has dodged to Madara headswing .

^False. There is no line of motion indicating that Madara has thrown the LF into the void, to turn its head and try to bisect Naruto. This does not make sense because it is Naruto ... There are no LF movement lines on the right side panel (from which theoretically the head movement would have to come out) and the perspective of where the PoV is is not helpful in anything. Therefore, nothing indicates a head movement of the Madara!
The fact that the Naruto bandana was cut off, it could have been in the act of Naruto dodging the beam and his bandana rising by the rapid movement in the air, would be a possibility. In fact, the only difference between the Manga and the explanation of the Anime, is the fabric of his bandana have not been cut.
The rest, is just a bunch of assumption wanting to explain a feat clearly ignored in the manga.

If someone simply can explain the movement of the head, without ignoring the good and common sense, I would like very much and I will support it 100%.
 
No that's just wrong. Again it's motion vs a stilled page. Literally the movement and what not is that similar to that of a manga. Just as simple as that, nothing changes. U r ready too much into t of something that's canon. U can look at something as small as proof to see something that is doing EXACTLY as the other so again no
 
@MostPowerfull

Headband
You do realize that Naruto's headband was sliced by the swing of Madara's beam, correct? and that the only way this could have occurred was if Naruto swung his head to dodge the beam being swung from right to left on-panel to raise his headband into its path; if the beam was head-on as asserted then his headband physically and logically could not have been severed in the manner it is since both tassles are cleanly hewn and are side-by-side
 
@Xulrev

No ... If Naruto dodges the beam to the left diagonal (as he did), his bandana would still rise thanks to the rapid movement, ie, the head swing of Madara would cut it, even Naruto dodging the laser or your movement, no matter if it was like in Anime or not.
Nothing prevents them from being cut equally, since they will rise equally thanks to the movement. Show the same image to prove your guess, not really help.

Or summarizing ... The fabric of the bandanna cut does not prove anything at all.
 
MostPowerfull said:
Yes, Naruto is facing him, however it is a swinging attack shown by the manga and described by the DB we use so of course he will have to swing his head. If the point was to just pierce Naruto there would be no point in swinging afterward as he would just hit air. The fact the tails of his headband protecter could be cut when they are behind him means he ducked his entire body down to the left side to evade a horizontal attack.

Madara got his amp from absorbing the tree last chapter and has only used Limbo to block Naruto's preceding attack and Dispatch on both Naruto and Sasuke. They have had no head on fight in their current states preceding him using Light Fang.

Naruto ducking his whole body to the side proves he was evading a swinging motion. Consider this, if Madara failed his piercing attack, why would he pointlessly slash horizontally and miss Naruto who was already below his line of fire? The obvious option would be to slash light fang directly down rather than to the side and hit nothing. Regarding the difference between anime and manga, not only is his headband not slashed in the animation, but his rod is also pierced first in the anime seeing as it is flung a greater more distace into air by the time madara's full swing has compelted, while in the manga it is cut second and it is barley parted from the bottom half by the time Madra completed his swing
 
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