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Anti-Spiral & Simon (+TTGL & STTGL) Upgrade?

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I am not well versed in dimensional tiering, but during episode 26 (https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-026?id=2199) Timeframe 13:20-13:30, Anti-Spiral states "You came all the way here to the space between the 10th dimension & 11th dimension so that we could finish you?". It also should be noted Simon destroyed that Dimension/Universe, the Direct quote is "The energy that maintained that universe between dimensions has vanished". (https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-027?id=2200) That is the episode link with the quote, timeframe 15:30-16:05. Also another thing, what scale is Extradimensional Space on? Since the attack creates universes instant to instant as they are precieved, (exact quote "They are all being held in extradimensional space. They are trapped in a series of universes that are created instant to instant as they are precieved", Same episode as linked above, timeframe 12:40-12:55) (Also should be noted that the attack would go on infinitely if it weren't for them breaking out of the Extradimensional Space) (Oh and also on the profiles of AS & Simon it says this is a illusion or mind attack, when in fact it's far from an illusion, it's in fact reality, you are creating a universe each time you precieve something, just because it looks like they are all just dreaming, it doesn't mean that they are, they in fact were in their own universes that they have created, and this is all supported by the video of seemingly endless vines growing showing that is what the intent of the attack is), would it be Multiversal + since you could create a never ending labyrinth of universes(On character tiering it says you need to be able to create or destroy up to10^500 to a infinite universes) (Also they could be up to High 1-C because of the whole inbetween the 10th and 11th dimension thing, which may I remind you Simon destroyed), regardless they both seem like a very high scale attacks, definitely deserving more than just 2-C.

Quick Edit: If anyone wants to say if Anti-Spiral was 1-C than why didn't he just crush them right away, he could have, but instead he played on a even playing field with them (https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-027?id=2200) Timeframe 3:25-3:32, and further more Lord Genome stats "You are being offely considerate, TOO considerate one may say. Why would you employ such elaborate, indirect methods? If you fought with all your might, exterminating us spiral races, would be a trival matter) (https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-026?id=2199) Timeframe 13:35-13:55. The reason why he didn't is because he sensed an unknown spiral presence (Bootah), and gaps in their analysis could ruin everything. Same episode, Timeframe 13:55-14:00. Also furthering this, the only feat that has Simon on the same level as Anti-Spiral is the one where he kills him (Surpassing him in Spiral Power in the process), and destroys the dimension. And if anyone wants to say that the Extradimensional space is in fact a mind attack because Viral said it was time to wake from this silly dream, first he was talking about the universe he created with a wife and kids (his dream), and second who are you going to trust more, The person who created and uses the attack, or the person who is under the infulence of the attack? And if you are in the thought process of, he can't control said universes, you may or may not be right, but for the sake of it let's just say you are right. He still created the Extradimensional Space where this Labyrinth of Universes resides and is made, so that in of it self is creating a multiverse, is it not? I mean he created the Extradimensional Space, where it traps the opponents and turns whatever they precieve into a universe, so his attack is the one making these universes, he just uses the opponent as a templete. Please note too, that this would only make multiversal AS in creation, not in reality warping. Just thought I would make before these arguments arise.

Content from locked thread: A user by the name of MasterHelix brought up execellent points, the Japenese translation of Tagen Uchuu meikyuu is literally Multiverse Labyrinth. He also gives another great point on how TTGL gives direct names to their moves. Prime Example: Giga Drill Break, Giga drived from a greek word ╬│╬»╬│╬▒¤é, which also means Giant, Drill is self explainatory, and Break(er) means...well it mean it breaks. Giant Drill Breaker, quite front foward. As is Multiverse Labyrinth, this is cleary the CREATORS intent, so why deny it? If you want to read more into the thread, here it is https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/97681

If you'd like to see my responses to the opposing points in the thread linked above, refer to the comments.

So in short I think Simon & Anti-Spiral should be upgraded to 2-A (If you accept the Extradimensional space one) or High 1-C (If you accept the inbetween the 10th and 11th dimension one) .
 
@Fasial Thanks man! That will really help this thread a lot. Also may I ask your opinion on my thoughts?
 
Faisal Shourov said:
Looks like a solid 1-C feat to me going by Character Tiering page
Exactly what I was thinking, though I am not to well knoledgable in the whole higher dimensional workings.
 
JoJo Fanboy said:
@Fasial Thanks man! That will really help this thread a lot. Also may I ask your opinion on my thoughts?
It looks accurate based on character tiering page on this wiki so far, I have no problem personally. Depends all on the admins now
 
As far as I know, DarkLK has already had multiple discussions debunking this.
 
I think that he mostly did it in the (now hidden) comment sections, but it is possible that there were forum threads as well.
 
It would be great if you could find it, because there are explicit on panel statements which are to be debunked and it's fair if the thread maker gets to see it.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that he mostly did it in the (now hidden) comment sections, but it is possible that there were forum threads as well.
Well I have added a section where I premptively address some problems people may have. So instead of writing it off because one guy "debunked" it, let's wait and see more thoughts?
 
This was DarkLK's main argument from what I gathered

"I have already said that AS does not have authority over the universes of the labyrinth. Even if the universes are created due to choices, it is just a feature of cosmology, not AS's power. The ordinary tree of branching possibilities/timelines/parallel worlds.

The aim of this character was the destruction of all spiral creatures. This would not have been a problem if he were a multiversal reality warper. Information gathering would be unnecessary."

The OP has addressed that with this quote

"You are being offely considerate, TOO considerate one may say. Why would you employ such elaborate, indirect methods? If you fought with all your might, exterminating us spiral races, would be a trival matter"

I suggest this is looked over by DarkLK and more stuff members, as the OP has different points from the other thread.
 
DarkLK is easily the most respected and knowledgeable member of both this and the ACF community, so unless you manage to convince him, this upgrade won't go through.

Here are a few previous threads regarding the Anti-Spiral upgrades, clearly seen via the link above:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/97681

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/81145

However, most of the discussions took place in the comment sections.
 
Antvasima said:
DarkLK is easily the most respected and knowledgeable member of both this and the ACF community, so unless you manage to convince him, this upgrade won't go through.
Here are a few previous threads regarding the Anti-Spiral upgrades, clearly seen via the link above:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/97681

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/81145

However, most of the discussions took place in the comment sections.
Basically what I gathered was, he can't control these universes (Which is fair enough), but it says under Multiversal + that creating or destroying 10^500 to Infinite universes is need to be in that tier. Anti-Spiral did create the Extradimensional Space where these universes were created, so he should be Multiverse plus still, since he did in fact create them.

And as for why Anti-Spiral isn't 1-C, well he did specifically state that he was going to play at their level (Team Dai-Gurrens level, that is.), so it wouldn't be far fetched that whatever they were fighting was a avatar of some sort, and again the only other time someone showed that level, was Simon when beating him surpasses him in Spiral Power, and destroying the dimension (May I add it would appear the place where Simon killed AS seemed like a different dimension of sort, supported by the lengthy fight in the movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSFWapfG2hU).

I will address more points when I am less sleepy lol, I only had a quick skim through.
 
If you're saying that Anti Spiral did infact create all the 11 dimensions mentioned then it's a 1C. And it's true he was holding back and brought his power down to fight the spiral races (I don't know if this can be compared to Pre Retcon Beyond from Secret Wars)

Wish other admins knew more about this series since DarkLK has no interest, and there is nobody to debunk/support you in person
 
Antvasima said:
DarkLK is easily the most respected and knowledgeable member of both this and the ACF community, so unless you manage to convince him, this upgrade won't go through.
Here are a few previous threads regarding the Anti-Spiral upgrades, clearly seen via the link above:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/97681

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/81145

However, most of the discussions took place in the comment sections.
I'm going to be honest, the guy did more reseach than I, and all of DarkLK response were his own description of the attack, and not the actual description of the attack. So I don't see why you didn't accept his post to begin with. But I anyways I would love to try and debate this issue with DarkLK.
 
Well, I asked him, but he seems to be tired of constantly having to deal with it.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I asked him, but he seems to be tired of constantly having to deal with it.
Well it sure feels nice that I was brushed off, and my opinion not even considered...
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I asked him, but he seems to be tired of constantly having to deal with it.
Well don't you think we need another admin's opinion to debunk this upgrade? The points he brought up in OP looks quite different from the other guys' thread, and DarkLK is not even to be bothered with this. Madara wouldn't have been upgraded after being downgraded once if admins didn't bother to read the new thread. Shouldn't it be the same for TTLG? Just my 2 cents
 
I don't know. I am unfamiliar with Gurren Lagann, but DarkLK is the person who built the ACF's and our tiering system from the ground up, and is the one who understands it best. If he thinks that something is incorrect, I tend to go with it.
 
^Incorrect based on previous thread, if all threads were treated the same Madara would not be downgraded or upgraded. Since DarkLK doesn't care, shouldn't we treat the OP's words more seriously? He also understands the series quite well from the detailed OP and this is definitely no troll thread (you can see the 10-11 dimension scan above).

It appears JoJo Fanboy is offended as his opinion was not even considered just because he's not a stuff member. You may want to consult other admins Antvasima
 
Well, okay. Let's wait to see what the other staff members think. However, I am in a bad position. My experience is that DarkLK is as good as always right about these types of matters, but he does not have the energy to deal with this topic anymore.
 
Anyways I will just my opinions on his debate: First off a major point of his is that he, AS that is, cannot control these universes. Which in of itself is fair, however he did create the Extradimensional Space where this labyrinth of universes is made. So that in of itself is creating a Multiverse, is it not?

And as for his Big Bang being impressive to TTGL, of course it is, he was still playing down to their level at that point. And may I add it is impressive to have a universe feat, while holding back. And the OP had a point of how attack names are very front with you in TTGL, and if we are to believe the title of the attack "infinity big bang storm" this type of attack would be on par with the Extradimensional Space.

Anti Spiral is not a multiversal reality warper, however this does not disprove AS being multiversal. He is multiversal in creation only.

And the last one of his argument is, that we have had three times have had gainex mention higher dimension, and three times it was vague, and lacking feats...OF COURSE, higher dimensions aren't easily explainable, or showable, hell our concepts of higher dimensions are vague to begin with, so this doesn't disprove anything, it just shows higher dimesions are weird and maybe even silly to begin with. Aren't higher dimensions something lower dimensions can't comprehend? So why would we lower dimensioners (if you will lol) understand the machinics of higher dimensions. The point is the CREATOR intended it as such, so why try and disprove the CREATOR of their own works?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, okay. Let's wait to see what the other staff members think. However, I am in a bad position. My experience is that DarkLK is as good as always right about these types of matters, but he does not have the energy to deal with this topic anymore.
Since DarkLK has explicitly stated he doesn't care about this thread, you can safely ignore the previous threads since they're irrelevant to this one. Profiles are constantly revised anyway. Jojo Fanboy is still making arguments which I suggest is evaluated by other admins for upgrade.
 
Antvasima said:
I don't know. I am unfamiliar with Gurren Lagann, but DarkLK is the person who built the ACF's and our tiering system from the ground up, and is the one who understands it best. If he thinks that something is incorrect, I tend to go with it.
Also, he seemed to make his own explantion up for these attacks, even when the show gives the explanation for you...so what I don't understand is why would you listen to a fan or a watcher of a series, rather than the series itself. It seemed to me there was a bias in the thread (Not DarkLK, he is entitled to his opinion), but you showed bias towards his opinion, and compeletly ignored Helix's points. "Basically, if he says that what you are presenting is unreliable, then I definitely take his word over yours, no matter how many walls of text that you use, and I will likely close this discussion soon.", so basically here you deny anything this guy says, no matter the shown visiable proof, because you'll trust the word of another, now please don't take this as an attack on you, I don't mean it as such. But it just seemed the whole thread was unfair to the OP and opposing opinion.
 
^Antvasima is is very distracted and agitated, so please cut him some slack. Other admins will evaluate your thread since DarkLK isn't interested at all. I hope you will get what you want
 
Faisal Shourov said:
^Antvasima is is very distracted and agitated, so please cut him some slack. Other admins will evaluate your thread since DarkLK isn't interested at all. I hope you will get what you want
I meant no offense. @Antvasima I mean no hard feelings, I was just giving my thoughts on that thread.
 
Well, I have lots of experiences with DarkLK being extremely knowledgeable, so I tend to trust his judgement. Regardless, he has argued extensively about this in the comment sections, but I am too tired to deal with it. Let's see what the other admins think?
 
Ok, may I ask why. And for some counters to my counters.

Ask him directly, if you want. I, personally, not interested in it.

Moreover, this "extradimensional" shit and 10-11 dimensions thing have been discussed again and again in the past. I don't want continue this again.
 
@A6colute My counters, just to make it easier for you. "Anyways I will just my opinions on his debate: First off a major point of his is that he, AS that is, cannot control these universes. Which in of itself is fair, however he did create the Extradimensional Space where this labyrinth of universes is made. So that in of itself is creating a Multiverse, is it not?

And as for his Big Bang being impressive to TTGL, of course it is, he was still playing down to their level at that point. And may I add it is impressive to have a universe feat, while holding back. And the OP had a point of how attack names are very front with you in TTGL, and if we are to believe the title of the attack "infinity big bang storm" this type of attack would be on par with the Extradimensional Space.

Anti Spiral is not a multiversal reality warper, however this does not disprove AS being multiversal. He is multiversal in creation only.

And the last one of his argument is, that we have had three times have had gainex mention higher dimension, and three times it was vague, and lacking feats...OF COURSE, higher dimensions aren't easily explainable, or showable, hell our concepts of higher dimensions are vague to begin with, so this doesn't disprove anything, it just shows higher dimesions are weird and maybe even silly to begin with. Aren't higher dimensions something lower dimensions can't comprehend? So why would we lower dimensioners (if you will lol) understand the machinics of higher dimensions. The point is the CREATOR intended it as such, so why try and disprove the CREATOR of their own works? Also another point I found, was DarkLK was making up his explantions of the attacks, when the explantion of the attack is giving to you by the show. So I didn't really get that."
 
Anti Spiral is not a multiversal reality warper, however this does not disprove AS being multiversal. He is multiversal in creation only.

Show me where AS creating a multiverse.
 
A6colute said:
Ok, may I ask why. And for some counters to my counters.Ask him directly, if you want. I, personally, not interested in it.
Moreover, this "extradimensional" shit and 10-11 dimensions thing have been discussed again and again in the past. I don't want continue this again.
Dark and Antvasima are tired of the subject so they wish not to intervene, so I kinda wanted someone to actually refute my points...And if you aren't interested I am going to assume you didn't read my post, so it seems a little biased to just ignore what I have to say in favor of another.

Well I didn't know and I'm sorry, but I still await at least one rebutle towards me.
 
A6colute said:
Anti Spiral is not a multiversal reality warper, however this does not disprove AS being multiversal. He is multiversal in creation only.Show me where AS creating a multiverse.
I will quote from my post "And if anyone wants to say that the Extradimensional space is in fact a mind attack because Viral said it was time to wake from this silly dream, first he was talking about the universe he created with a wife and kids (his dream life), and second who are you going to trust more, The person who created and uses the attack, or the person who is under the infulence of the attack? And if you are in the thought process of, he can't control said universes, you may or may not be right, but for the sake of it let's just say you are right. He still created the Extradimensional Space where this Labyrinth of Universes resides and is made, so that in of it self is creating a multiverse, is it not? I mean he created the Extradimensional Space, where it traps the opponents and turns whatever they precieve into a universe, so his attack is the one making these universes, he just uses the opponent as a templete." Also "Content from locked thread: A user by the name of MasterHelix brought up execellent points, the Japenese translation of Tagen Uchuu meikyuu is literally Multiverse Labyrinth. He also gives another great point on how TTGL gives direct names to their moves. Prime Example: Giga Drill Break, Giga drived from a greek word ╬│╬»╬│╬▒¤é, which also means Giant, Drill is self explainatory, and Break(er) means...well it mean it breaks. Giant Drill Breaker, quite front foward. As is Multiverse Labyrinth, this is cleary the CREATORS intent, so why deny it?" For footage of the scene refer to https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-026?id=2199 Timeframe 12:30-15:25
 
I will quote from my post

Show me where said that AS created multiverse.

OR

Show me where said that AS created infinite universes.
 
A6colute said:
I will quote from my post
Show me where said that AS created multiverse.

OR

Show me where said that AS created infinite universes.
https://*********.to/Anime/Gurren-Lagann/Episode-026?id=2199 Timeframe 12:30-15:25 is the footage of the scene in question. Main Quote in Question "They are all being held in extradimensional space. They are trapped in a series of universes that are created instant to instant as they are precieved", they are created instant to instant, and with no way out (Unless you have Major amounts of spiral power, you'd be traped there forever) so these universes would be created instant to instant endlessly, if traped with out sufficient spiral power.
 
A6colute said:
I will quote from my post
Show me where said that AS created multiverse.

OR

Show me where said that AS created infinite universes.
Addon to previous post. He created the Extradimensional Space, and in said space whatever is percieved becomes a universe endlessly. He created the Extradimensional Space, the Extradimensional Space creates the univeres from peoples perceptions. He created the attack that has the potential to create a Multiverse.
 
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