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Can I see the part where it says he created a new causality system?
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Removing Simon's type 4 Acausality
- Thread starter AloseVQ
- Start date
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因果も運命も突破して、
If we take this word as breaking, we need to add aca4 neg and NPI to Simon for his ability to break cause and effect. But I think the context is more suitable for aca4 because in the previous conversations nia talks about being trapped in a cause and effect loop. To Breaking through this, I think aca4 is more appropriate
Vietthai96
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Since when did breaking cause and effect mean acausality 4 negation??, also why NPI??, because he physically breaking cause and effect, fate???
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He do this by manipulating causality. Not by his existence. It is already explained in the texts you quoted that he combines all the possibilities in the multiverse and creates a new one in his drill. This is an attack, not a state of being.
And in this way, he breaks the pre-causality and gains resistance to it. It has nothing to do with working in a different causality system
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He does it with his drill, a drill interacting with causality, of course, NPI
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Except he was not manipulating any causality, rather going beyond it by breaking it through, as his entire mission is to be beyond it and not be victimized by the system which he has done it by being abstractness.
So not only you are saying he is resisting, but you are also saying he is manipulating causality, which has no logical grounds (or even in-verse evidence)
So not only you are saying he is resisting, but you are also saying he is manipulating causality, which has no logical grounds (or even in-verse evidence)
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Vietthai96
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If you goes with the interpreting path that he interact and break causality, fate physically, he will not gain Aca 4, only NPI and possibly causality & fate hax, this is the result of your interpretation
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Who made up “combining all possibilities in the multiverse and creating a new one in his drill”? The text is just merging all of just his possible selves into a single drill, without any mention of a new universe being created. Whoever came up with that is feeding false info
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- Thread starter
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Yeah that’s not a thing
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It's Type 4 but can you show us when they made a new causality system?
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Yeah I'm curious where did it say they made their own causality systems when breaking through cause and effect cause I don't recall seeing that in the scans.
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I should rephrase my sentence, then. He combined his entire cause-effect in the multiverse then went beyond it (as Dread said), AKA he fused his very possibilities (which in context means causality; thoughts, wishes, regrets, hopes, past, and future) then breaks through them in the progress. It's not literal but it's alluded.
That just means he becomes acausality after manipulating causality, the drill is also him - he intergrated with the multiverse. It doesn't refute a thing.
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Word it as it is; break through. He broke through causality and fate, he didn’t go beyond it. Breaking through, with this series’ context is merely becoming free of or no longer being limited by. To put it simply, Dai-Gurren is not longer limited by causality and fate, but it doesn’t mean they operate on a completely different system of causality
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And why isn't being bounded by the verse's causality system wouldn't be a form of Type 4 again, lol? This feat could not be inferior to the baseline Type 4, as although Type 4 operates in different laws, it is still restricted within the scope of causality system. In fact, the feat fits more to Type 5 since "no longer being limited to causality system" is anywhere an achievement of that territory. But since the verse lacks explicit feat; being able to not be interacted anymore, the Type 5 argument becomes invalid based on the standards of the this site (the only thing that cockblocked the upgrade).
Go ask DT whether being no longer be bounded by the verse's causality system is Type 4 Acausality or not, because as per my knowledge, it's definitely is (even may goes further beyond the baseline).
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 605
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This seems to be Type 4 Acausality for just going beyond causality(cause and effect) and also fate, where for Type 5 only being beyond causality isn't enough, but we also need to have statements or allusions/context of being an unchangeable entity.
Also, having resistance to Causality and Fate Manip can just be a part of Acausality 4.
Don't see what's the issue here. The context seems to imply breaks through in terms of overcoming, surpassing or exceeding. In this case it implies being beyond causality. We just don't take statements of beyond causality for Type 5 without qualifying for the other criteria, instead we lowball it to Type 4.
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No it doesn’t. In the context of the story, it only implies overcoming, with the story being about overcoming previous limitations, but nothing about surpassing or exceeding. Again, to put simply, Simon doesn’t have causality and fate as a limitation any longer, that’s literally all it is
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Means he is acausal, and is Type 4.
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No it doesn’t, there is no implication that he works under a different causal system
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And since when Type 4 is restricted to a different causal system stuffs?
Overcoming the cosmology's causal system is definitely Type 4, or false Type 5 if you want to say it like that. I literally addressed this on my previous post.
Tanin_iver
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I’m sorry how did I-
My point on this whole thing was like the same pretty much idk how I contradicted myself
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 605
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We both agree that the premise of the series is is about overcoming obstacles and surpassing limitations.
We both agree that Simon is implied to surpass or overcome limitation regarding causality and fate.
And yet you say he is not working under a different causal system than regular causality even after he surpasses or overcomes the limitations of causality.
When acausality is itself defined as being in a different form of causality than regular causality:
He already has Type 2 for merging with his other selves, and he won't qualify for Type 5, which leaves only Type 4 which he qualifies for surpassing causality without much elaboration on his unchangeable aspect and the other Types are completely different.
So, I don't really see what's your point of contention.
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Okay I think I’m understanding Acausality a little more now, since the context is that he’s no longer limited by causality and fate, it seems like it would be Acausality type 4.
The OP is suggesting that it’s more so breaking a wall as like an attack, but with the context of the story, every “break through” has always been a no-longer-a-limitation thing. For example, when TTGL (mech) was created, Simon said “break through the heavens and dimensions.” And Final Drill even corroborates by saying Simon broke through time and space to confront Antispiral. In this instance, Final Drill describes TTGL as transcending time and space. So if the writers use “break through” as a term that’s interchangeable with “transcend,” then it would be fair to say that “breaking through causality and fate” means to actually transcend causality. Therefore, Team Dai-Gurren should get to keep their Acausality type 4 rating
The OP is suggesting that it’s more so breaking a wall as like an attack, but with the context of the story, every “break through” has always been a no-longer-a-limitation thing. For example, when TTGL (mech) was created, Simon said “break through the heavens and dimensions.” And Final Drill even corroborates by saying Simon broke through time and space to confront Antispiral. In this instance, Final Drill describes TTGL as transcending time and space. So if the writers use “break through” as a term that’s interchangeable with “transcend,” then it would be fair to say that “breaking through causality and fate” means to actually transcend causality. Therefore, Team Dai-Gurren should get to keep their Acausality type 4 rating
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Is time and space interchangeable with causality itself in Gurren Lagann? Because transcending time and space can mean a multitude of other things without further elaboration.
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Just index it as resistance to Fate and Causality Manipulation.
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I was using that as an example of how break through means transcend. The reason OP agrees with removing Acausality is because he thought that it was describing an attack, but it wasn’t, it was more of a description of the level up that Simon and the others got through the Spiral Power’s power of evolution.
I change my vote to disagree
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@BluudyManikin777 Idk how the OP would've taken that literally and not just interpret it as Simon just resisting causality itself but ok, still not that convinced it's type 4 Acausality.
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Can you tag some staff members please?
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Okay but here’s the thing, there’s an actual difference between type 4 Acausality and resistance to causality and fate manipulation. Acausality is acting unrestrained by regular causality, or in other words transcending regular causality. But a character with merely resistance is someone who still works under regular causality, and has a means to survive against an opponent manipulating causality and fate. Simon transcends causality, he doesn’t work with regular causality anymore. Therefore he’s type 4
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@BluudyManikin777 Uhh, where did it say he transcends causality? I saw transcending space and time, not causality, unless we're taking the "breaking through causality" as transcending it, which I don't agree with since other characters have similar statements/showings of breaking through cause and effect or their destiny and they don't get type 4 Acausality from that alone.
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Breaking through is the same as transcending, because of the example with Simon “breaking through time and space” and there being another statement that says TTGL “transcends time and space,” the terms are interchangeable. I really don’t think you should be bringing other characters into this because, this is now about how these different writers choose to use the term “break through.” In other verses, break through might not have the same meaning that the writers for TTGL give it
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Also OP I said I change my vote to disagree
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Where does it say it's the same as transcending? Again I like to see if there's anything that mentions time and space, and causality/fate are used interchangeably in the series because if that's remotely stated anywhere then I can see the argument. Besides part of the argument for Simon and co. getting type 4 is the narrative of Gurren Lagann, which the same argument can be applied to Kratos as the whole narrative of God of War 2 is how Destiny cannot control him anymore and how he'll forge his own destiny, something the creators back up consistently, and that's treated as a resistance feat.
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