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How am I going to be convinced by “trust me” argument. Not even rational at the minimum.
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Removing Simon's type 4 Acausality
- Thread starter AloseVQ
- Start date
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 484
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@GreatIskandar14045 should we summon Team Dai Gurren and show these Anti Spirals why we have acausality. Or you think you can handle this on your own.
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Bro, this has nothing to do with "trust me".
You don't even prove what you claim.
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I don't think he said something ridiculous. And perhaps, I am not the one who based my disagreement or agreement on something that does not exist in the text.
You need to see how others said it is AP feat. Perhaps, this is the definition of ridiculous.
Also thanks for your unproved observation, not really relevant to the topic. So again, back to the main point, why am I supposed to be convinced by “trust me” argument? You even failed to explain it.
You need to see how others said it is AP feat. Perhaps, this is the definition of ridiculous.
Also thanks for your unproved observation, not really relevant to the topic. So again, back to the main point, why am I supposed to be convinced by “trust me” argument? You even failed to explain it.
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I'm actually about to leave the thread, haha!
I'm here because of bored and wondered why the **** there's almost no real supporters here.
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Ya, and I feel it is unnecessary since no one here made this argument.
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It is already absurd to attribute this to the AP, but I was not sure whether your sentences or their opinion is more absurd.
Acausal basically means that you cannot be influenced by any cause and effect, and it has nothing to do with the concrete and the abstract
For example, let A be the cause and B be the effect
B will not happen because character A lacks cause.
And I can say too many examples like this.
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You're the one who's perpetuating this.
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yeah this is exactly the interpreter of my feelings
Georredannea15
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Saying "Prove the difference between being abstract and being Type 4 acausal" is like saying "Prove that 2+2 isn't 5"... In this case, it's up to you to prove that 2+2 is 5.
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The materialized spiral energy part doesn’t really help explain type 4 Acausality since it doesn’t mention their mere existence is capable of functioning on different laws than the normal world. At best it’s a resistance feat for the main cast with that level of spiral energy.
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That ironically comes from someone with literally zero arguments...
We all know that abstraction has nothing to do with acausality in most cases because at this point, y'll are telling us something we already know (like that asinine Causality Manipulation and Acausality comparison everyone already know lol, why even tell that?). But the thing is, context matters. While it's true that an abstraction of a being wouldn't generally give one acausality at the first place, that doesn't mean one couldn't obtain it via abstraction. For example, being an abstraction of a great realist concept which freed itself from the extensions of conventional reality is a blatant acausality feat (Type 4, or even Type 5 with additional context), because causality itself is a part of reality. Would y'll say said abstraction isn't an acausal because abstraction has zero business with being existentially immune to causal changes? No, it would be dumb.
In this case, Simon became an abstract after he intergrated with the multiverse which consists all kinds of possibilities, grabbing his entire paths into a drill then made a new path (that breaks through cause, effect, and fate part), proves that he owned his own causality then make his anew. An additional feat can be put on that the abstraction which Simon become, the materialized Spiral Energy, is a fundamental power that represents everything including the construction of time and space (the usual components which responsible for cause and effect).
The thing is, you guys are just cherry picking the argument. The abstraction was never the exact reason, it was solely an evidence that said feat was done existentially rather than resisting. I'm not gonna give scans because them all are in the page.
Like for God's sake. Give a ******* good argument already.
We all know that abstraction has nothing to do with acausality in most cases because at this point, y'll are telling us something we already know (like that asinine Causality Manipulation and Acausality comparison everyone already know lol, why even tell that?). But the thing is, context matters. While it's true that an abstraction of a being wouldn't generally give one acausality at the first place, that doesn't mean one couldn't obtain it via abstraction. For example, being an abstraction of a great realist concept which freed itself from the extensions of conventional reality is a blatant acausality feat (Type 4, or even Type 5 with additional context), because causality itself is a part of reality. Would y'll say said abstraction isn't an acausal because abstraction has zero business with being existentially immune to causal changes? No, it would be dumb.
In this case, Simon became an abstract after he intergrated with the multiverse which consists all kinds of possibilities, grabbing his entire paths into a drill then made a new path (that breaks through cause, effect, and fate part), proves that he owned his own causality then make his anew. An additional feat can be put on that the abstraction which Simon become, the materialized Spiral Energy, is a fundamental power that represents everything including the construction of time and space (the usual components which responsible for cause and effect).
The thing is, you guys are just cherry picking the argument. The abstraction was never the exact reason, it was solely an evidence that said feat was done existentially rather than resisting. I'm not gonna give scans because them all are in the page.
Like for God's sake. Give a ******* good argument already.
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I don't think anyone was doing this argument. (2x)
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@GreatIskandar14045 We’re not saying that fiction in general cannot get Acausality through abstract existence, our issues is there’s a lack of statements for Gurren Lagann that states that’s how it works for the series. Can you link the page or blog that explains how the Acausality works because it might help explain stuff we’re not aware of.
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,143
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That's not what I meant actually.
What I mean here is that I said that having abstract existence is not the same thing as working on different laws with state of existence, they are different.
I don't think there is anything wrong here (unless I missed something...)
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Might not happened for you, but that's what those guys above said.
What about I give you the scans (ironically I said that I won't give scans but **** it)?
| When Simon awakens without hesitation, he intergrates with the multiverse and rescues the members of the Team Dai-Gurren from the endless chain of possibilities. Finally getting Nia back from the Anti-Spiral. As Gurren Lagann emitted a new light, the final evolution of Gurren Lagann began. |
| Kamina: Yeah. (Nodding) The other members of the Team Dai-Gurren who were behind him nodded. Simon turns his back. Simon's appearances spread out across the entire space. It's Simon's appearances spread out in a multiverse of possibilities for each possible appearance. But the core drill shines in Simon's chest. and his left arm becomes Gurren Lagann's. A drill appears from there. That drill spins rapidly. The drill engulfs Simons in the multiverse, turning him into a vortex of light. Simon "Let's go, buddy." In that glow, Simon transforms into Gurren Lagann's form and flies off into the void. |
| ""Yeah!" The members of the Gurren Lagann behind me nodded vigorously when I said that. Thank you, brother. I believe in you who believes in me. I believe in my friends who believes in myself. Simon held up his core drill to the heaven and a flash of light flashed across the sky. Innumerable appearances of Simon appeared in the sky, and they were the past, the present, and the future, every place, every time, and the innumerable selves that live in a world of infinite possibilities. There is no escaping wherever you go. In a closed infinite universe, various lives are repeated. In that universe of possibilities, Simon twisted the innumerable selves he had drilled into one, twisting them together into a giant drill, and before he realized that it was a huge drill, Simon wasn't there but Gurren Lagann. There stood Gurren Lagann, holding up the giga drill, "Let's go, buddy!"" |
| "Nia entered the cockpit of the Lagann, along with Simon. Each Lagann merged into Gurren Lagann. It was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of. The feelings that each of us had in our respective universes appeared in the form of a drill, breaking through the wall. It was appearing in the form of two shapes and sizes, and they became one. If you have no choice but to fight, do not hesitate. We are not afraid to ask for power. If there's a wall, we'll hit and break it, if there's no way, we'll make it with our own hands! No, more. Breaks through cause, effect and fate, the cry of life resounds in the galaxy yet, more. Engrave the feelings of a friend in this body, and turn infinite darkness into light! -That's it. A power greater than the stars, greater than the galaxies. A power greater than dimension and time." |
| "The infinite power that overflows from this body. Give it form. It takes the form of a person. Thoughts overflow. Words break through the heart. Nia speaks. "Even when trapped in the cycle of cause and effect!" Yoko prays. "The feelings left behind will open the door!" Leeron tells us. "Even if the infinite universe stands in our way," Viral cries. "This bloodletting will decide our fate!" Simon shouts. "Break through the heaven and the dimension!" They all wears. "To grab hold of our own path!" The universe trembles. "Who the hell do you think we are!?"." |
| "There, a giant that crossed the galaxy was born. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. The ultimate evolution of Gurren Lagann, created by swallowing all of our thoughts, wishes, regrets, hopes, past, and future. That giant, engulfed in green flames, was the greatest power that humanity, or rather the Spiral race, had ever gained. The face is on the chest, abdomen, arms, thighs, legs, and key points of the deformed body. It corresponded to Lagann on which each Team Dai-Gurren was riding. Now each of them had the same power as Simon. However, the voice of the Anti-Spiral sounded there..." |
The entire point of Gurren Lagann is making your own way if there's none (2). Simon (and his friends) intergrated with the very multiverse (past, present, future, all possibilities, all places, emotions, hopes) which means there's literally no cause-effect left in the conventional reality that will rule them in average ways. And then, he broke the wall of causality and carved a new path.
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There is a lack of explicit statements (no one disagrees with this common fact), but to come further and say it lacks context is outrageous. The whole text describes how those are victims of the cause-and-effect chain, and they want to be beyond the system; thus, they turn to emotions/abstracts to gain authority.
Cherry-picking it to the point of dismissing the significance of the text is a bit rigid,
I could downgrade any verse using this mindset, dismiss what the context tells, never elaborate on the point of it, and only focus on "explicit, straightforward statements."
Also, I still need to ask why it is specifically a resistance if their process to achieve it is to be an abstract existence to operate beyond the usual system.
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We are not saying that "you cannot be acausal because you are abstract beings".
But we say that being an abstract being is not something that favours you being acausal, and it doesn't make you completely acausal.
Even if being abstract is a state of being, being concrete is also a state of being, and these states of being have no support "acausal".
The states of being we want for Acausal are very different.
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@GreatIskandar14045 Merging the different possibilities from past present and future sounds like type 2 Acausality given he made himself lack a past and future at that point. Type 4 I’m not personally seeing here since them breaking through causality itself just sounds like a resistance feat right there.
@ImmortalDread if the other verses you wanna downgrade don’t have any statements on their existence functioning on different set of rules then go ahead and downgrade it.
@ImmortalDread if the other verses you wanna downgrade don’t have any statements on their existence functioning on different set of rules then go ahead and downgrade it.
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And I never said you said that, either? Are you stawmanning, lol?
Look at your bold sentence and read my post again, you proved my point. You guys are just cherry picking ***** without telling the context.
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No, because I don't possess this mindset, and neither are there any standards that require us to have strict, explicit, non-negotiable statements. Context is sufficient to establish and draw the conclusion.
Mind you, I also don't need statements to conclude that something is an apple if the description fits the criteria.
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Glass said "We’re not saying that fiction in general cannot get Acausality through abstract existence"
And you've just said that we claim otherwise.
What Glass is trying to say here is "your being abstract existence does not prevent you from being acausal"
And I already agree with this.
However, I disagree with the acceptance of abstraction as directly acausal.
I think you have the intelligence to understand the subtle difference
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Tone it down or I will move this to RvR
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Since when has it been a bad thing to think that someone has the intelligence to understand this, lol.
I didn't say anything bad here, I don't think it's an RVR situation.
If you want, go ahead.
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He isn't just lacking past and future (which is something I already aware by the way), he owned those past, present, future, and all kinds of possibilities, and merged them into a drill. In other word, the context said that he intergrated with the multiverse, which means the causal system would be included too (which is the context because wishes, regrets, and hopes are consisted). And then, he broke through the cause, effect, and fate in the progress.
Why would it be a resistance feat when he isn't resisting anything? He literally said nein to the causal system of the verse and made his own one. And as Dread said, the plot is about that they were the victims of the law of cycles so they went abstract to go even beyond it.
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Because you indeed claimed otherwise, and you said that before he said that so you're just being overly defensive at this point, or irrelevant. Go scroll up and see your (zero) arguments, you will realize it.
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And if you think the messages are there.
Prove that I totally said that.
I don't remember making a sentence like "being abstract prevents you from being acausal".
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And I will ignore you since now, because you literally contribute nothing to this thread but using argument of incredulity such as "it's just your personal interpretation!" or "trust me!" without even constructing a proper rebuttal.
Next.
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Well, yeah, ignore me.
I think you're surprised to find that what you claim is not found.
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I'm still in favor of removing Aca 4 from the profile, but I don't want to get involved too much to derail the discussion. So I'm waiting for supporters to provide more context and for other staff to give their input.
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Honestly, I changed my mind well over a year ago on whether Dai-Gurren has Acausality type 4, and I began to also think that they qualify more for just Resistance to Causality and Fate Manipulation, because the statement is just about how they broke through causality and fate, and that it doesn’t imply that they now work under a different causal system
FoxySonicMaster108
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Yeah after going through the thread, I do disagree with removing Type 4 (unless one wants to provide even more context as to why it wouldn’t be)
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- Thread starter
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Noted.
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@ImmortalDread not sure how something being an apple is the same thing as discussing if someone is a type 4 acausal being but whatever.
@GreatIskandar14045 That still sounds like type 2 acausality though. Idk why you keep bringing up the narrative theme of gurren lagann when it doesn't mention anything about the characters functioning on different laws than before.
@GreatIskandar14045 That still sounds like type 2 acausality though. Idk why you keep bringing up the narrative theme of gurren lagann when it doesn't mention anything about the characters functioning on different laws than before.
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How's overcoming your previous causality system and made a new one isn't Type 4?
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