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Dragon Ball: Post ToP Revisions

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Bruce_Reb

Bruce_Reb

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OP: Given the fact that Android 18 has been downgraded to High 4-C and FTL+, so should Cocotte.

Edit: Due to the evolution of the discussion and arguments presented below, this thread has been repurposed to talk about the inconsistencies in how the wiki currently represents the Dragon Ball Super power-scale.
 
Yeah, she should be.

There are probably a few other characters who need tier changes, or justification updates at the absolute least. A huge chunk of the tournament seems to be treated as original SSG level, despite the fact there was a LOT of fodder.
 
I think a bigger discussion/revision needs to take place now that the ToP is over. The power scale is a bit messed up.
 
Ok, i think the Cocotte forcefield should be also downgraded, also it should be adjusted this way since the main 3-A characters held back for a good fight or in order to conserve energy from bigger foes. I now think that making them 3-A was a mistake:

High 4-C: Roshi, Android 18, Krillin, Ganos, Tien, Cocotte, Viara, Brianne, Su, Sanka, Nigrisshi, Narirama, Battle and Ultimate Katopesla, Bollarator, Maji Kayo, Damon, Gamisaras.

4-B: Base Gohan, Piccolo, Jimeze, Botamo Dura, Cocotte Forcefield Dura, Magetta, Frost, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Saonel, Pirina, Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Hyssop, Hop, Obuni, Napapa.

3-A: Base and Golden Frieza, Full Power Goku, Vegeta, 17 and Ultimate Gohan, Koichiarator, Kefla, Anilaza, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit.

Note: Base Gohan [Who only used his full ultimate power against Koichiarator and Dyspo] and Dyspo [Who overpowered Hit] were heavily weakened when Ballarator and Kayo attacked them. Both Bollarator and Kayo were said to be inferior to U3 strongest warrior Nigrisshi, who was fodder to Base Cabba. Lastly a distracted character can be hit by an attack lower than his durability.
 
Dark649 said:
Ok, i think the Cocotte forcefield should be also downgraded, also it should be adjusted this way since the main 3-A characters held back for a good fight or in order to conserve energy from bigger foes. I now think that making them 3-A was a mistake:

High 4-C: Roshi, Android 18, Krillin, Ganos, Tien, Cocotte, Viara, Brianne, Su, Sanka, Nigrisshi, Narirama, Battle and Ultimate Katopesla, Bollarator, Maji Kayo, Damon, Gamisaras.

4-B: Base Gohan, Piccolo, Jimeze, Botamo Dura, Cocotte Forcefield Dura, Magetta, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Saonel, Pirina, Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Hyssop, Hop, Obuni, Napapa.

3-A: Base and Golden Frieza, Full Power Goku, Vegeta, 17 and Ultimate Gohan, Koichiarator, Kefla, Anilaza, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit.

Note: Base Gohan [Who only used his full ultimate power against Koichiarator and Dyspo] and Dyspo [Who overpowered Hit] were heavily weakened when Ballarator and Kayo attacked them. Both Bollarator and Kayo were said to be inferior to U3 strongest warrior Nigrisshi, who was fodder to Base Cabba.
Click to expand...
Why do we need 4B i thought these guys scaled base Goku
 
Ssr4vegito said:
Why do we need 4B i thought these guys scaled base Goku
Click to expand...
The Goku (or other 3-A character) a lot of them are scaled to was holding back by an absolutely insane amount to preserve energy for stronger opponents.

A lot of their reasons for being 3-A in the first place are out of context, now that the Tournament is over.

As an example, Napapa is currently 3-A for pushing back Super Saiyan Caulifla. However, in the scene's full context, Caulifla was just doing this to get him to the edge of the stadium. As soon as she was about to be pushed off, she stopped him in his tracks, powered up, and tossed him off the edge. Napapa's only other feat of note would be fighting on equal grounds with Basil, who is 4-B. We can't scale him to someone else 3-A, such as Freeza, as he was effortlessly stomped by a super casual base Freeza.
 
Ssr4vegito said:
Why do we need 4B i thought these guys scaled base Goku
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Base Goku is 3-A at full power, but it was shown that characters like Goku has perfect ki control in all of his forms [even SSB] which means that they can held back to much lower tiers even to 10-C in order to fight much weaker opponents and conserve energy. This is why he was able to fight evenly with Krillin, even as a SSB.
 
But it's funny how Super Perfect Cell is apparently a lot stronger than Ribrianne and Katopesla, even with the 300x multiplier for Pepsi Man. SPC can literally one-shot most of the U2 team lol
 
Would you people prefer it if this thread was repurposed for the revisions and edited accordingly? Or should a separate one be made?
 
Ssr4vegito said:
I think anypne whp force base Goku or Vegeta to go ssj should keep their 3A ratings
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Goku went SS and SSB againt Krillin and other opponent because he felt like it, he was shown to still suppress his power. For other it could be bad writing or etc. but were still shown to massively held back their power.
 
I think universe 6 saiyans, Gohan ,piccolo,universe 6 namekians and katopesla should keep it others can be downgraded
 
I think characters like the Universe 6 Saiyans remaining 3-A is fine.

Kale effortlessly tanked an attack from SSB Goku and smashed him around, which is definitely more than almost anyone else did, even if he wasn't going all out. This also notably worried Toppo and caused Jiren to intervene directly. This is a hell of a lot better justification than "inflicted microscopic injuries to held back base Goku when he wasn't paying attention" or some of the ridiculous stuff many other combatants have.

Caulifla, at absolute worst only in SS2, likely scales somewhat.

Their fusion threatened to straight up kill UI -Sign- Goku, which means it's highly unlikely they were only 4-B, individually.

lol I don't remember most of what Cabba did.
 
Super Saiyan Cabba is initially stronger than Super Saiyan Caulifla. Also both mastered Berserker Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla were fighting a Goku who was stronger than his Pre-UI Super Saiyan Blue.
 
@Dark

So 18, Rozie and Ribrianne weaker than Universe 9 and 10 fodder like Napapa and Hop?

Ribrianne should be stronger than Jimeze as she was stated to be Unuverse 2's strongest Aswell

Not to memtion how at full power, when enraged, she was keeping up and fighting equal to 17, who evidently stated he was NOT holding back from the start since he had infinite energy and therefore nothing to save. He wasn't even going to let her transform, so he wouldn't just take it easy on her, even if he was playfully acting like a villain.

So they should at least be in the 4-B category
 
The rest I don't particularly care about since DBS powerscaling is ******* garbage but Hit and nobody else in Universe 6 being 3-A feels wrong.
 
Ribrianne is fodder, she was getting ragdolled by a casual Base Vegeta at one point and 18 [Who is High 4-C now] destroyed her strongest form.
 
I just wanna say....

Dragon Ball Z and Super have never (hardly ever, at best) had good reasons to have the levels of power they do for new characters.

I mean, I can buy Raditz being stronger than Goku, but Goku's little kid is stronger than all of them? When he throws a temper tantrum?? The Humans, who were barely able to be stronger than Piccolo before the Raditz fight, are all of a sudden stronger than him— after training with a guy who was weaker than Piccolo! Then, after showing us how there's aliens on other planets who somehow know how to use Ki— a very spiritual and mystical technique based thing— with no ability to control or sense the energy they use— something even Vegeta learned on his own for some unexplained reason— we find out that we can just MAKE Tier 4s in a laboratory using Dr. Gero's tech...?

And then there's Goten and Trunks... And there was a powerful monster rampaging years ago stronger than anything, and Frieza, who we know is smart— is even bothering trying to conquer the universe, knowing about Beerus AND Buu, who could show up and kill him at any point. And now, we have everyone and their mother at Star Level. Random, no backstory aliens are stronger than Frieza!

I am NOT saying by any means we should throw logic out of the window when scaling these characters. But I AN saying that incredulity doesn't put a rating off the table per se.

I think that Kale, Caulifla, Cabba, and Hit should be the only other people who are universal in U6, as Cabba was stated by Vegeta to be equal to him (which, even though he treated him like nothing just before going Blue, he wouldn't lie about). Caulifla and Kale should be superior to Cabba, by his admission, IIRC. And Hit is obvious.

Roshi and everyone who isn't notable should be Large Star level, as long as they are demonstrated to be comparable to people who can break the Katchi-Katchin who aren't the universal guys.
 
Ribrianne shouldn't be High 4-C. She fought Super Saiyan Goku.

Also my dude, no offense Amexim, but you are arguing from incredulity.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Ribrianne shouldn't be High 4-C. She fought Super Saiyan Goku.
Click to expand...
Who was massively helding back, at least she should be not be 3-A.
 
@Matt

So would that be an outlier as well seeing as she was later easily pushed aside by Base Vegeta and beaten by 18? Ribrianne being 3-A and 18 not being so feels...off seeing as 18's biggest ToP feat is taking out Ribrianne.

Also characters from U6 should likely stay 3-A considering not only the ToP but the U6 Tournament.
 
We should not value the ''increase in size thing'' as a major tier and power jump.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Ribrianne shouldn't be High 4-C. She fought Super Saiyan Goku.

Also my dude, no offense Amexim, but you are arguing from incredulity.
Click to expand...
I... Am...? ^head explodes^ Hey, Matt, that's My line! OwO

That was more of an analogy, rather than the primary argument.

Also, maybe I wasn't clear in my reasoning. Most times people are using arguments like this is because the story is contradicting already established or implied conventions. See how Goku had to train for his entire life to get where he is, or how Frieza was apparently a mutant freak/exception amongst most beings— and now everyone and their mother is universal to large Star by merit of simply existing. I'm citing the fact that Dragon Ball had set up the requirements for gaining power, and the scenarios, reasonings, and other traits of how it functions, and consistently throws it away every time. Like, if we were to make OC's that weren't as broken as the future warriors, how do we get to Goku's Level? Do we train for almost 60 years and get a God ritual boost, or is that contingent on being born strong? If we're born strong, is it easier to get stronger, like it was for Frieza, and possibly 17? Or is that even true, as shown with Vegeta, and almost everyone but Frieza?

Because Frieza basically did the Saitama routine for a month and went from Star to Universal, all because he was born so strong, iirc. Logic would dictate that if Vegeta trained as hard as Goku, he should always be stronger than Goku, even if Vegeta started training at a later point in his life. He was born stronger than his dad, iirc. Becoming strong in dragon ball is consistently inconsistent, is my point, so crying about how it inconsistent these power jumps are isn't a good argument. That might be fallacious, but it makes sense in my head...
 
My point is, there not being a good reason for characters being as strong as they are doesn't negate their strength. So 18 could be universal if that's in any way possibly true, the reasoning doesn't necessarily absolutely have to make sense.
 
I remember arguing a few months ago that the Trio de dangers and Frost shouldn't be casually put at 3-A and being completely shut down. It looks like we are having the same argument again ....

LOL
 
But that's the problem though, right— we know Goku and the other high tiers can suppress themselves. But when are they and how much are they doing so?

The Trio de Dangers are definitely at least Solar System Level, consistently fighting against characters at that level like Mahon Buu. Weird things like Gohan's level being somehow stronger than before in SS1 because of one shorting Tagoma who should— for some stupid reason— be at the strength of "his best". Universal shenanigans can come from Bergamo's ability, if at all. I don't think they should be Universal normally, based on there not being ANY actual reason, bull or otherwise, to be stronger. We don't know if they trained, and we don't know how much stronger they can get over 2 days. Unlike how Gohan basically did.

Gohan tho... I want him to be Universal in base, like Goku. I don't have much clear evidence for it— Goku and Gohan looking like they're trying hard isn't really indicative of anything— otherwise everyone is universal.
 
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