Major Fate Revisions

Iapitus Make Bad Choices and Procrastinates Homework by Doing a Long Ass Revision Post


Part 1: Tales of a Light Speed Excalibur, and a Relativistic Rider (Wiki Policy Forbids it)

This Calc might have been addressed before, I was looking a post of it and couldn't find one. This would need to be evaluated, most likely. I'm sure many are going to immediately go [See Meme to the left]

To Rider Dodging a Light Speed Excalibur, that's fine. I'll address those points as they come. If this does go through, it would be wonders for speed scaling


Part 2: Ruler Takes a Walk, and other Immeasurable Speed Feats (Rejected)

Alright, so as we know, The Heroic Spirits reside above time in The Throne of Heroes, which obviously qualifies as immeasurable speed, but since Normal Heroic Spirits are usually just information it isn't worth a key. Hence why every Heroic Spirit isn't running around with a second key that gives them Immeasurable speed. However, it seems The Good 'ol Count isn't the only Servant who has immeasurable speed feats. It seems The Saint of The Flag, is a rare case that she has a form that isn't straight up information and isn't bound by time. She isn't a normal heroic spirit, so I guess it would make sense she would be the exception. Read this quote bellow:

Reverse Side of the World [Others]
The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth's surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as "Earth". On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the "Reverse Side of the World"—the place where the laws of the "world" as it once was reigns, and covering that is the "Present World".
...Jeanne d'Arc is a Heroic Spirit who, from the start, lost her human body long ago. Because of that, the chances of her reaching the Reverse Side weren't completely zero… However, that is merely the kind of "not zero" like, as a comparison, somehow managing to pass through a wall with the tunnel effect, but the Throne where Heroic Spirits Exist is cut off from the time axis, so she effectively had an infinite number of attempts to try. - Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Other Side of the World [Others], p.173
As you can see, since she when she doesn't have her human host, she very clearly has immeasurable speed (or atleast infinite if you want to go purely by feats and toss out the statements to low ball). Sure, this may be very different from what a normal heroic spirit could do, but Jeanne is not a normal heroic spirit, as the guide makes clear.
Thus, Jeanne should have a second Key, one with Immeasurable speed and a non corporeal nature


Part 3: Saber Atomizes Cthulhu (I think its Accepted?)

This one is fairly cut and dry. I'm sure it's been discussed before, but I couldn't find a post about it. To be brief: Excalibur can atomize its targets. It doesn't bypass durability, obviously, but this would at least give a counter to regen. Here is the quote:

"It was ―
"Ex ― calibur!!!"

Light galloped.

Light roared.

The prana, accelerated by the factor of the released dragon, became a streak of light, a swirling and surging torrent that devoured the sea demon together with the dark night.

A silent scream rose within the river water evaporating in an instant, as every single atom composing the body of the giant sea demon that had been the embodiment of terror were exposed to the scorching impact."
-Fate/Zero: Act 10, -84:19:03


Part 4: 8th Dimensional Moon Cell? (Monarch got it accepted on Another Post)

Alright, so I saw some people talk about the Moon Cell having 8th dimensional defenses, so I looked into it and found the statement.

"BB :: However…The Moon Cell, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It's a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it'll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I'll have reached my goal. So I've left all of you in Meltlilith's care. The girl can't really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too ÔÖÑ"
Now before y'all Slam that Outlier button again, let me tell you what this actually means. Now, when this quote is taken out of context it may sound like BB is breaking down some 8th Dimensional Structures. Don't Worry, She isn't. I talked with Ramses about this and he gave some context to me. She was using the moon cell against itself to get past its defenses, so she doesn't scale, in fact no one directly scales. Really all this does is it would confirm there are 8 dimensions minimum in the nasuverse instead of just 6. Probably the main thing that would need to happen for this upgrade is we need someone to look at the original japanese to make sure they are, in fact, referring to spatial dimensions and not just universes


Part 5: What's Up With The Counter Guardians?

Alright, so I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, maybe it has but I asked a mod and they didn't remember it being discussed before. Are there better ways to look at revisions for a series other than going into discussion for that series and scrolling down? Anyway, I digress…
Counter Guardians such as EMIYA and EMIYA should have a 'varies' tier, since it is stated as one of their abilities to be boosted in stats to compensate for whatever enemy they are facing.
An excerpt from the official glossary:

"...The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.
Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes".
Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain.
These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event."
We would need to establish a cap for what their tier and speed can be, I would say likely whatever power The Counter Force can muster is.


Part 6: Shiki as a Servant (Already Underway)

Alright, so this one is fairly simple. Ryougi Shiki needs either a 2nd profile or 2 new Keys for her Servant forms in grand order. One Key for Assassin, and one for Saber. If we do make a seperate profile, then we would only need one. This is because, unlike other servants, Shiki can switch betwee her Assassin and Saber forms at will like she did on the Grand Order mission. These new keys would have higher stats and the standard servant abilities along with her skills.


Part 7: What's The Point of Command Spells? (Can be Used for Power Enhancement, that's the point)

A Few Profiles have Command Spells under powers and abilities. Unless the enemy is your servant, they are unusable so what's point? Sure Benkei is understanable since he can use a similar ability depite them not being his servants, but other than that they should be removed from profiles. The only reason I see it not being removed is if somehow verse equalisation would let command spells be used in general against enemy summons, but that seems like a stretch at best


Part 8: Overarching Issues. (Being Worked On)

Many of the servant profiles are missing their innate servant abilities and several characters with abilities that bypass durability are missing the standard durability negation mention in their AP sections. I was attempting to correct this little by little over time but many of my changes get reverted so i guess I need to mention them here. Many are missing Invulnerability as a power, and I mean actual invulnerability not just high durability. I'll mention a few here (There are Many More Than This Tho):
• Both Sieg and Siegfried are missing Invulnerability

• Enkidu is missing durability bypass

• Child-Gil is missing durability bypass
• I believe the description that Musashi can form her blade through a set space regardless of what is there is a clear sign of durability bypass on top of her fate manipulation, but apparently that is up for discussion

• Kintoki Sakata is missing some of his inherent servant abilities


Alright those are all the revisions I have for this right now. Some of these may have been done before, but I don't know a more efficient way to check other than scrolling down discussion posts. I didn't find any of these doing that.

Oh boy, here it comes.

The Bait of Babylon has been unlocked.

Not this again.

The 8th Dimensional barriers don't change nothing, at all. Its an outlier for BB, super vague with no proof of them being infinitely larger, and the Only thing that would be affected by it isn't even a character, it's a place.

@Matt

He was never saying it was a feat for BB (He specifically says it isn't), just that 8 dimensions exist in the Nasuverse, which doesn't even apply to anyone anyway.

Well it would apply to Akasha if I'm not wrong, but that's it.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Not this again.
The 8th Dimensional barriers don't change nothing, at all. Its an outlier for BB, super vague with no proof of them being infinitely larger, and the Only thing that would be affected by it isn't even a character, it's a place.

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i explicitly said it doesn't upgrade BB at all, I also explicitly said we should evaluate the original japanese to evaluate if they are legitimate or not. Its more to establish a higher cosmology, but I guess that would upgrade Akasha I suppose

It would apply to Akasha actually

I'm just going to camp out in the comments. Hope no one minds.

I'm pretty sure the Google+ calc is wanked and not accepted. We need a little more context for the Throne of heroes stuff rather than arbitrarily slap immeasurable into a bunch of characters who are like Tier 7 to 6 and fight people who aren't.

I'd say it's either an outlier or not combat applicable for when servants are outside the throne

The calc seems to be using "light" statements as lightspeed with nothing further on it.

1) No. Excalibur isn't natural light. It's the light of a Holy Sword and explicitly a magical beam of scorching heat described as Divine Thamaturgy. In addition, natural light isn't condensed into an energy blade, and the Excalibur Morgan version (which functions identically) manifests its "light" as black flames. No dice.

2) No. Yes, Heroic Spirits reside outside of time, but that's only in the Throne of Heroes. All Servants are restrained by the bounds of time (sans Dantes) as soon as they hit the material plane. The Heroic Spirit Jeanne d'Arc can reach Sieg because she exists outside of the material world, but not in any capacity that would be usable in stats or a fight.

3) I'm not sure if scorching every atom = destroying every atom anymore, but this one seems more concrete.

4) You outright say no one scales, so this isn't going on any profile.

5) Servant EMIYA and Counter Guardian EMIYA are two separate individuals but we don't know how much stronger Counter Guardian EMIYA is.

6) We're considering this.

7) We're an indexing wiki first and foremost. If they have the ability, they keep it.

8) I can add Invulnerability. I don't get why Enkidu would have Durability Negation. Child Gil, I guess through Ea and some weapons from the GoB. Musashi is still a no from me. We can edit Kintoki's profile later.

Part 2:

This is nonsense. In the original FSN it is established that because the Throne of Heroes exists outside of space and time, the Servants contained within it have already experienced everything. Shirou's defeat of Archer may change him in UBW, but in the Throne, that has already happened to him and has not changed who he is. For the true essence of Archer, it has no significance. It should be the same for Jeanne and Apocrpyha. For Jeanne to be able to move around as information on the Throne for no real reason besides "oh, we need to give this a romantic ending like FSN does even though no one likes Sieg or this relationship" is complete nonsense and frankly just total bullshit.

Part 3:

Fine.

Part 5:

Yes, they should have Counter Guardian stuff.

Matthew Schroeder said:

I'm pretty sure the Google+ calc is wanked and not accepted. We need a little more context for the Throne of heroes stuff rather than arbitrarily slap immeasurable into a bunch of characters who are like Tier 7 to 6 and fight people who aren't.
I'd say it's either an outlier or not combat applicable for when servants are outside the throne

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Boi I didn't claim half the stuff you are debunking

1) has it been evalutated before? If so, then do you atleast recognise that Excalibur has consistently been stated to have light speed attack?

2) I said The Throne of Heroes keys are pointless for all but Ruler.

3) Jeanne is the only one with a point to having a key for her spirit form, since she has shown to be able to remain active unlike other servants. She was outside the throne and did stuff, tho other servants likely cannot

Part 1:

Rider being relativistic I'd say is 100% an outlier compared to all the other servants around his weight class.

Didn't look at the lightspeed calc, but if it's just assuming it's light, that's not enough.

Part 2:

Infinite/Immeasurable speed in the Throne of Heroes maybe, but there's nothing else we know about the place. We don't even know if servants in it are able to fight or anything. I'd hold off on this one

Part 3:

Wasn't Excalibur hitting every atom of the target accepted ages ago? Though it doesn't ignore durability

Part 4:

Look into the original japanese

Part 5:

Counter Guardians I have no opinion on

Part 6:

I believe Reppuzan and some others were talking about giving Shiki her servant tiers.

Part 7:

Don't know what the point of them is either.

Promestein said:

Part 2:
This is nonsense. In the original FSN it is established that because the Throne of Heroes exists outside of space and time, the Servants contained within it have already experienced everything. Shirou's defeat of Archer may change him in UBW, but in the Throne, that has already happened to him and has not changed who he is. For the true essence of Archer, it has no significance. It should be the same for Jeanne and Apocrpyha. For Jeanne to be able to move around as information on the Throne for no real reason besides "oh, we need to give this a romantic ending like FSN does even though no one likes Sieg or this relationship" is complete nonsense and frankly just total bullshit.

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They explicitly say why the normal rules do not apply to Jeanne, and explicitly say she is not just information. So using normal servant rules to debunk Ruler's feat doesn't work

Reppuzan said:

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1) Which Guide says this? They seem toimply her mana is being turned into light

2) She does have a form enough to touch physical beings tho, and even if we put her physical stats at Unknown, the statistics difference is great enough to warrent a key

3) I don't know how you shivel an atom or burn an atom to change the color and texture, so I'm pretty sure its Destruction

4) They share the same psyche, same memories, and same personality. I already said his stats would be "varies" as the guide clearly says the tiers of counter guardians varry

5) Yes, but it establishes cosmology. Also some have pointed out that Akasha would scale indirectly

6) ayy nice

7) But its not really an ability in that way. No more then using a pokeball could be used for sealing of another fighter other than pokemon

8) Enkidu has Enuma Elish. I think the guide for Musashi is clear. thanks for the other stuff

Iapitus The Impaler said:

They explicitly say why the normal rules do not apply to Jeanne, and explicitly say she is not just information. So using normal servant rules to debunk Ruler's feat doesn't work

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Pretty sure the reason normal rules don't apply to Jeanne is because "oh, we need to give this a romantic ending like FSN does even though no one likes Sieg or this relationship"

Monarch Laciel said:

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1) would you recognise Excalibur's attack at light speed atleast?

has several statements backing up its light speed

2) She has it outside the thone of heroes tho, and pretty much only her. the others are pointless

3) its not on the profile, so it should be added. But that's great

4) I need someone who has the means to, I know there are users have have the capability to, but I do not

Monarch Laciel said:

Pretty sure the reason normal rules don't apply to Jeanne is because "oh, we need to give this a romantic ending like FSN does even though no one likes Sieg or this relationship"

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those may be the meta reasons, but the guide's in universe reasons still exempt her

1) No. I don't recognise it as lightspeed.

2) If she had it outside the Throne of Heroes she could have blitzed every Servant who threatened her in Apocrypha.

3) I've seen it in arguments before so I'm pretty sure its already accepted even without being on the profile.

4) I don't either.

@Iapitus

1) I don't recall light ever manifesting as black flames.

2) Still no. It contradicts everything else shown in the series as Promestein pointed out.

3) You can crash two atoms together and expose them to scorching heat without destroying them.

4) We can't quantify this.

5) I honestly don't understand the Akasha situation right now.

7) It can be used for summoning, teleporting, and empowering one's Servant. I don't get how this is not a power.

8) Enkidu's Enuma Elish is very different from Gilgamesh's.

Monarch Laciel said:

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1) I see, did you look at the statements?

2) I don't think you read the context of the scan. That isn't Servant Jeanne who has immeasurable speed or participated in the war, as I said, its a different Key

3) I mean its a notable enough counter to regen that it should be under the abiliy index

@Iapitus

1) I looked at the statements. It's contradicted by what's actually shown in the series.

2) Our profiles are for Servants, not their Heroic Spirits on the Throne.

3) I'll let the others make the final call on this since it's been debated for so long.

Masters can use Command Spells to boost themselves too, you know. Guda does it to punch Goetia and Kirei uses their magical energy to lolnope Kerry's Origin Bullets, for example.

The only special thing about Jeanne is her Class and being a Saint. Of course she "lost her human body long ago", she died in the Middle Ages ffs. Also, much like Akasha is not a character, the Throne is not an actual place where Heroic Spirits exist, think or have any capacity to do anything at all. Jeanne reaching the Reverse Side is complete unexplained bullshit to begin with, trying to use it as a feat is even more BS.

Lol at lightspeed anything not Extraverse. You're absolutely right, that's an outlier. Hell, surpassing lightspeed is explicitly only possible in SE.RA.PH., and even then it will **** up a normal Servant's Saint Graph and they'll probably die. Seibah and Deermud being lightspeed is contradicted by literally everything.

Accelerating magical energy and turning it into light also doesn't fly, because it's magic and hasn't demonstrated any of IRL light's properties. Just because someone uses magic to creat a light missile and fire it doesn't make that light missile move at lightspeed. Unproven statements are not enough, it needs to meet certain requirements for LS to be accepted. We have guidelines for this.

Enkidu's Enuma Elish is different from Gilgamesh's and does not bypass durability.

Reppuzan said:

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1) being comparable doesn't mean exactly the same. do you have scans of it being explicitly described as light?

2) Again, its supposed to contradict. Applying rules to the exceptions is fallacious, and Jeanne is explicitly the exception

3) exposing something to scorching heat and scorching it are different things according to the dictionary

4) Varies is a tier. The guide said it varies. there we go, what's wrong with that?

5) I don't completely either, and really as far as I would understand it the only change it would make is changing the "6" on her profile to an "8"

7) Because it is only applicable if we put summoning servants as an ability on the profile. Also, with the exception of Sieg and Benkei, they are never used while in combat side by side, and not applicable that way the way the profiles are set up. Same reason why Soul Manipulation isn't on Medic's profile

8) Oh yeah, my bad. Totally missed that. Tho he should definitely be able to bypass durability with weapons he creates from transfiguration

Reppuzan said:

@Iapitus
1) I looked at the statements. It's contradicted by what's actually shown in the series.

2) Our profiles are for Servants, not their Heroic Spirits on the Throne.

3) I'll let the others make the final call on this since it's been debated for so long.

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i was talking to monarch for these. Responded to your's above

Excalibur Morgan is literally the exact same as Excalibur, except it's all black and evil because of grail mud.

Why would Enkidu's weapons bypass durability?

NotEvenHuman said:

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don't know the context for Guda, wanna give scans for context? iirc he was doing that via tying in someone else's magic sercuts

the guide does explain it tho, and if you look at the context of the series, they are refering mostly to her being unable to be summoned as a conventional servant and she needs a host to work. Her spirit is not pure info, the guide does explain

i see, do you have scans of these statements?

well damn, that does nail the coffin shut doesn't it. wish someone had mentioned it in the first place.

yeah i got that now

NotEvenHuman said:

Excalibur Morgan is literally the exact same as Excalibur, except it's all black and evil because of grail mud.
Why would Enkidu's weapons bypass durability?

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do you have scans of this? Of it being explicity stated to be light

already addressed that above

Someone else's magic circuits? Let's ignore the fact that doing something like that is impossible in the first place, and that if it was possible it would be way beyond Guda's abilites... Whose circuits could they possibly use for that? They were alone with Goetia. Roman and Mashu just sacrificed themselves, the Servants are busy killing off the Demon Pillars, the rest of Chaldea is just chilling in the command room, and most of them aren't mages in the first place.

Jeanne can't be summoned as a conventional Servant? What is that even supposed to mean? If you're talking about Classes. she can be summoned as a Saber too, IIRC. And Rulers can be summoned conventionally anyway, see Amakusa and Chaldea. And yes her spirit is pure info, just like everyone else's. Again, the Throne of Heroes is not an actual place where Heroic Spirits can exist and do things.

What your quote in the OP says is not that Jeanne herself is somehow special as a HS, just that since she's in the Throne, which in turn is outside of time, she has infinite attempts to get summoned and reach the Reverse Side. Which still doesn't explain shit and is the equivalent of a handwave. They say the same thing about Artoria's attempts to obtain the Grail in the Fate route. Because she's essentially frozen in time and getting summoned to the future and past right before her death, she has infinite attempts to get the Grail. This is the same situation as Jeanne trying to get into the Reverse Side, except Jeanne is already in the Throne. This does not make them Immeasurable.

I'll go grab the quotes you asked for now, though it might take a while for the lightspeed ones because i don't remember exactly when it was stated in the CCC event.

Iapitus The Impaler said:

NotEvenHuman said:

Excalibur Morgan is literally the exact same as Excalibur, except it's all black and evil because of grail mud.
Why would Enkidu's weapons bypass durability?

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do you have scans of this? Of it being explicity stated to be light
already addressed that above

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Why would i give scans of it being explicitly stated to be light, when you're the one claiming it to be lightspeed? There are no scans of Excalibur Morgan being light because it's not. However, the mechanism behind it is exactly the same as Excalibur because it's the same. *******. Sword. But now it's black. So if Excalibur Morgan is not Lightspeed, then Excalibur isn't, either.

No you didn't, you just said weapons he creates with Transfiguration should bypass durability without actually explaining why they would.

NotEvenHuman said:

snip

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I was saying using someone elses magic sircutes to no sell the origin bullets. Again, scans for the command spells on Goetia please.

I mean she can't be summoned without a host. That's what that means. Do you have scans proving this? They exist as information, and normally cannot act, but Jeanne is different.

I don't see it that way, and they are refering to her not being able to manifest as a normal servant without a host. Saber and Jeanne are not the same situation, fallacy of a false equivolence. Also do you have scans of Saber doing such?

aight

NotEvenHuman said:

Why would i give scans of it being explicitly stated to be light, when you're the one claiming it to be lightspeed? There are no scans of Excalibur Morgan being light because it's not. However, the mechanism behind it is exactly the same as Excalibur because it's the same. *******. Sword. But now it's black. So if Excalibur Morgan is not Lightspeed, then Excalibur isn't, either.

No you didn't, you just said weapons he creates with Transfiguration should bypass durability without actually explaining why they would.

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I'll take that as a no then.

Since he can make weapons to match Gil, idk how he would have been able to match Gil without creating swords of that level and with that level of hax

If the Servant can use it to buff their stats or whatever, keep it.

If its their master using it to teleport them, thats someone else's ability not the servant's

Yeah like Seig

yee

that doesn't address everything I said dude.

goetia was right

Like Rep said, we're indexing them. If they have the ability to use command seals, then we add it, regardless of who they can use it on.

I only see a problem if there are Servants listed as being able to buff their stats with command seals when it actually was their Master buffing them

Ok, I can see that then. Real talk tho, Servant Gil has the power to summon servants as part of his abilities so he should have that right?

BTW,i have a question,should Karna have Existence Erasure resistance? because in the moon cell,his armor make Jinako didn't get erased,just saying here....

Considering BB who can delete people couldn't do anything to him, probably, but I'll leave that to somone more knowledgeable about Extra