Zeus is up against another Godslayer... | Hearts (SDBH) Vs. Zeus (GOW) | (3-1-5)

[Spicy78]

Zeus himself is also acausal. In the sense of temporal paradoxes not working on him and time and space working differently for him (granted the latter doesn't mean as much these days with Type 4 getting gimped).

hearts can also erase type 1 acausals and is implied to be able to erase type 4 acausals as well

 

[Planck69]

hearts can also erase type 1 acausals and is implied to be able to erase type 4 acausals as well

Fairs. Fear itself should be fine and I guess the debate would be if the erasure would effect its unity with Zeus.

 

[Spicy78]

Fairs. Fear itself should be fine and I guess the debate would be if the erasure would effect its unity with Zeus.

imo, it would. unless i'm missing out in GOW's UES page, it's never stated that the causality and/or the being's place in time is a part of the soul (its only stated both that gods are acausal, but hearts can interact with acausals anyways; and that souls predate time, but predating something doesn't grant anything by itself. they don't have BDE, so they're still bound by time), so when hearts erases zeus, he would both erase every interaction that zeus had in the world, including the moment when fear and zeus' soul become one, and erase his fate to become fear itself

 

[Spicy78]

Thing is, Zeus' Soul IS fear itself at this point, so would such a thing even affect it at all?

sure, it is fear, but zeus being fear and the great evils themselves are different. one's soul became a concept as an effect of a cause, that hearts would just delete; while the others are concepts that have existed, exist, and will exist for all of time; they are concepts because they have emerged as that before time even existed

 

[Planck69]

sure, it is fear, but zeus being fear and the great evils themselves are different. one's soul became a concept as an effect of a cause, that hearts would just delete; while the others are concepts that have existed, exist, and will exist for all of time; they are concepts because they have emerged as that before time even existed

Zeus' soul is also a concept, albeit a lesser one than the Evils. While he came into being after time began with his father, souls generally can exist without spacetime in the verse.

Also, wouldn't Fear still corrupt Hearts after that, even assuming it was separated from Zeus?

 

[Spicy78]

Zeus' soul is also a concept, albeit a lesser one than the Evils. While he came into being after time began with his father, souls generally can exist without spacetime in the verse.

after hearts erases zeus' history, his link with the great evils is no more, so he wouldn't be able to resurrect as a concept. now, that out of the way, are souls alone in GOW capable of regenerating a body on their own, without need of external help (i don't see low-godly regen in any GOW profile lol)? if not, GG. if yes, hearts can just erase zeus indefinitely, so GG as well

Also, wouldn't Fear still corrupt Hearts after that, even assuming it was separated from Zeus?

zeus would be erased, so he'd still win. he'd just come out of more busted out of the fight lol (conceptual SDBH is back let's gooooo)

 

[omegabronic]

after hearts erases zeus' history, his link with the great evils is no more, so he wouldn't be able to resurrect as a concept. now, that out of the way, are souls alone in GOW capable of regenerating a body on their own, without need of external help (i don't see low-godly regen in any GOW profile lol)? if not, GG. if yes, hearts can just erase zeus indefinitely, so GG as well

The history of his body really means nothing here, as Zeus' mind, his soul and the Fear itself will remain intact, so he will still remember all he needs to in regards of this fight, as his souls' history wouldn't change since it is Fear itself......so that wouln't work

zeus would be erased, so he'd still win. he'd just come out of more busted out of the fight lol (conceptual SDBH is back let's gooooo)

Zeus is Fear, therefore he isn't dead or erased

 

[Spicy78]

The history of his body really means nothing here, as Zeus' mind, his soul and the Fear itself will remain intact, so he will still remember all he needs to in regards of this fight, as his souls' history wouldn't change since it is Fear itself......so that wouln't work


Zeus is Fear, therefore he isn't dead or erased

please read this thing below

imo, it would. unless i'm missing out in GOW's UES page, it's never stated that the causality and/or the being's place in time is a part of the soul (its only stated both that gods are acausal, but hearts can interact with acausals anyways; and that souls predate time, but predating something doesn't grant anything by itself. they don't have BDE nor nonduality, so they're still bound by time), so when hearts erases zeus, he would both erase every interaction that zeus had in the world, including the moment when fear and zeus' soul become one, and erase his fate to become fear itself

 

[omegabronic]

please read this thing below

That would only be possible if he was able to erase Zeus' soul's history, which is what Fear fused with, again, his body here is inconsequential, his soul is what he needs to erase to have anyway to bypass Fear

 

[Planck69]

Why is Zeus' body even being brought up when Fear has all of his abilities cranked up to eleven?

 

[omegabronic]

Btw i don't see History erasure on Hearts' profile

 

[Planck69]

Btw i don't see History erasure on Hearts' profile

It's there.

 

[omegabronic]

It's there.

i am now convinced i am ******* blind for not seeing it before lol

 

[Spicy78]

That would only be possible if he was able to erase Zeus' soul, which is what Fear fused with, again, his body here is inconsequential, his soul is what he needs to erase to have anyway to bypass Fear

Why is Zeus' body even being brought up when Fear has all of his abilities cranked up to eleven?

...

imo, it would. unless i'm missing out in GOW's UES page, IT'S NEVER STATED THAT THE CAUSALITY AND/OR THE BEING'S PLACE IN TIME IS A PART OF THE SOUL (ITS ONLY STATED BOTH THAT GODS ARE ACAUSAL, BUT HEARTS CAN INTERACT WITH ACAUSALS ANYWAYS; AND THAT SOULS PREDATE TIME, BUT PREDATING SOMETHING DOESN'T GRANT ANYTHING BY ITSELF. THEY DON'T HAVE BDE, SO THEY'RE STILL BOUND BY TIME), so when hearts erases zeus, he would both erase every interaction that zeus had in the world, including the moment when fear and zeus' soul become one, and erase his fate to become fear itself

zeus' body isn't relevant to this discussion at all, his history is. history is literally on par with concepts, information and plot as a fundamental aspect of a character. this ain't just your average body-erasing EE. hell, hearts could just erase zeus' birth and that'll be GG, as he doesn't have a concept if the concept doesn't get to exist in the first place. GOW souls don't have the ability to restore his literal prevention for their existence

 

[omegabronic]

...

zeus' body isn't relevant to this discussion at all, his history is. history is literally on par with concepts, information and plot as a fundamental aspect of a character. this ain't just about the body. hell, hearts could just erase zeus' birth and that'll be GG, as he doesn't have a concept if the concept doesn't get to exist in the first place. GOW souls don't have the ability to restore his literal prevention for their existence

That is the point, Hearts can't interact with Zeus' soul to be able erase ITS history with fusing with Fear, thus making it irrelevant as the one thing that matters for Fear would still be there

 

[Spicy78]

That is the point, Hearts can't interact with Zeus' soul to be able erase ITS history with fusing with Fear, thus making it irrelevant as the one thing that matters for Fear would still be there

IT'S NEVER STATED THAT THE HISTORY IS A PART OF THE SOUL

​

arale can plot hax zeus until oblivion, right? as plot and concept, unless shown otherwise, are not a part of each other, right? then, history is the exact same. it has the same interaction, it's like you're treating history as a lesser thing that concepts, info, plot, etc

#stophistorydiscrimination

 

[Planck69]

History is an industry plant aspect smh.

In all seriousness, this is feeling closer to an incon to me.

 

[Spicy78]

hell, even planck said in an arale vs kratos thread that her plot manipulation would screw him over (despite his conceptual invulneravility and arale not having conceptual manip herself) and kratos could do the same with her via his conceptual manip (despite him not having any plothax)

history is in the same scope of "fundamentability" than plot and concepts, but somehow history has to interact with concepts?????????????

 

[Spicy78]

History is an industry plant aspect smh.

In all seriousness, this is feeling closer to an incon to me.

absolutely agreed with you. both can incap each other with a simple hand gesture and are willing to do so as a first move

 

[omegabronic]

IT'S NEVER STATED THAT THE HISTORY IS A PART OF THE SOUL

​

...........what is your point? When have i affirmed that it is?

arale can plot hax zeus until oblivion, right? as plot and concept, unless shown otherwise, are not a part of each other, right? then, history is the exact same. it has the same interaction, it's like you're treating history as a lesser thing that concepts, info, plot, etc

No? Hearts simply has no way to interact with concepts at all, thus he has no way to erase them as he can't even interact with them to begin with

 

[Quantu]

DBH vs GOW is just History and sometimes Plot vs Concepts with extra steps

 

[Spicy78]

...........what is your point? When have i affirmed that it is?


No? Hearts simply has no way to interact with concepts at all, thus he has no way to erase them as he can't even interact with them to begin with

hell, even planck said in an arale vs kratos thread that her plot manipulation would screw him over (despite his conceptual invulneravility and arale not having conceptual manip herself) and kratos could do the same with her via his conceptual manip (despite him not having any plothax)

history is in the same scope of "fundamentability" than plot and concepts, but somehow history has to interact with concepts?????????????

 

[Quantu]

DBH vs GOW is just History and sometimes Plot vs Concepts with extra steps

Actually, there are no extra steps. It's literally just that.

I'm gonna vote incon on the basis that history and concepts are separate aspects with no superiority over each other.

 

[omegabronic]

hell, even planck said in an arale vs kratos thread that her plot manipulation would screw him over (despite his conceptual invulneravility and arale not having conceptual manip herself) and kratos could do the same with her via his conceptual manip (despite him not having any plothax)

history is in the same scope of "fundamentability" than plot and concepts, but somehow history has to interact with concepts?????????????

Fear is more fundamental/abstract than other type 1 concepts, so

 

[omegabronic]

Actually, there are no extra steps. It's literally just that.

I'm gonna vote incon on the basis that history and concepts are separate aspects with no superiority over each other.

Same vote from me

 

[Spicy78]

Fear is more fundamental/abstract than other type 1 concepts, so

so is hope and arale managed to mess with kratos lol

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, voting inconclusive as well.

 

[Vietthai96]

i want to complain about why i keep randomly losing notification from random threads

Anyway, probably my argument got lost in the river of time (comments), but my argument is, while Zeus soul and that Fear Zeus can't be interacted due to being conceptual, the thing is Hearts erase Zeus across all points in time (work on Zamasu who is both Aca 1 and 4, but type 4 look useless these day so, actually it isn't useless in DB but well...), which in turn historically, causally erase Zeus. Fear Zeus isn't really exist since the begining of time, only starting to exist after Zeus is infected with Evil released from the Pandora's box cause....well....Kratos, so when Hearts erase Zeus, he also erase the events leading to the Zeus getting infected by Evil and the creation of Fear Zeus, thus Fear Zeus is no more. So Zeus' soul will probably still there due to being concept, but he can't do anything as a soul, and Hearts can't do anything to Zeus' soul, Hearts could probably erase the timeline leading to Zeus birth like what @Spicy78 said, but that kinda way later down the line. So eh......incon or not??

 

[Spicy78]

i want to complain about why i keep randomly losing notification from random threads

Anyway, probably my argument got lost in the river of time (comments), but my argument is, while Zeus soul and that Fear Zeus can't be interacted due to being conceptual, the thing is Hearts erase Zeus across all points in time (work on Zamasu who is both Aca 1 and 4, but type 4 look useless these day so, actually it isn't useless in DB but well...), which in turn historically, causally erase Zeus. Fear Zeus isn't really exist since the begining of time, only starting to exist after Zeus is infected with Evil released from the Pandora's box cause....well....Kratos, so when Hearts erase Zeus, he also erase the events leading to the Zeus getting infected by Evil and the creation of Fear Zeus, thus Fear Zeus is no more. So Zeus' soul will probably still there due to being concept, but he can't do anything as a soul, and Hearts can't do anything to Zeus' soul, Hearts could probably erase the timeline leading to Zeus birth like what @Spicy78 said, but that kinda way later down the line. So eh......incon or not??

the thing is, if hearts erases zeus from history, zeus himself would be automatically deleted, as he'll erase his whole past (which includes his birth), so zeus' soul wouldn't even be there. he'd just be gone

 

[segetero]

i want to complain about why i keep randomly losing notification from random threads

Anyway, probably my argument got lost in the river of time (comments), but my argument is, while Zeus soul and that Fear Zeus can't be interacted due to being conceptual, the thing is Hearts erase Zeus across all points in time (work on Zamasu who is both Aca 1 and 4, but type 4 look useless these day so, actually it isn't useless in DB but well...), which in turn historically, causally erase Zeus. Fear Zeus isn't really exist since the begining of time, only starting to exist after Zeus is infected with Evil released from the Pandora's box cause....well....Kratos, so when Hearts erase Zeus, he also erase the events leading to the Zeus getting infected by Evil and the creation of Fear Zeus, thus Fear Zeus is no more. So Zeus' soul will probably still there due to being concept, but he can't do anything as a soul, and Hearts can't do anything to Zeus' soul, Hearts could probably erase the timeline leading to Zeus birth like what @Spicy78 said, but that kinda way later down the line. So eh......incon or not??

Also, Hearts has high godly negation, so if Zeus is successfully erased, he would be unable to regenerate.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, Hearts has high godly negation, so if Zeus is successfully erased, he would be unable to regenerate.

uh oh................tbf, Zeus do not have HGR to begin with, so HGR neg is pointless, but i can understand what you mean

 

[Planck69]

Fear doesn't need a corporeal form to act to begin with. This like the fifth time regen is getting brought up while it's never been a factor lol.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Hearts has quantum manipulation as a part of gravity manipulation he could squash the opposition into a zero dimensional point.

 

[omegabronic]

Hearts has quantum manipulation as a part of gravity manipulation he could squash the opposition into a zero dimensional point.

he can do that with Zeus' body........Fear will be completely unaffected by it however

 

[Spicy78]

Hearts has quantum manipulation as a part of gravity manipulation he could squash the opposition into a zero dimensional point.

1. saying he could turn zeus into a 0D point is NLF. hearts doesn't have dimensional manipulation in his profile
2. if hearts squishes zeus, zeus just turns into the concept of fear itself and hearts is cooked

 

[ChoursDropoff]

he can do that with Zeus' body........Fear will be completely unaffected by it however

Ignoring the immense levels of headcanon to assume that his astral form isn’t bound by dimensionality even though it is. There’s nothing stopping him from squashing the planet or the environment they’re in thus Zeus

His avatar form also isn’t gonna save him from his history being deleted especially since hearts has passive gravity crush and paralysis inducement. Zeus’s best hope is a incon but he has no wincons literally.

1. saying he could turn zeus into a 0D point is NLF. hearts doesn't have dimensional manipulation in his profile

Gravity Manipulation: Hearts' signature ability, called Supergravity, allows him to manipulate gravity and its direction,[14][11][15][12][13][16] such forcing his opponents to the ground, drag them to him and "move" them around, push them far away, etc...He can also creates Gravity Cage which is another extension of his gravity power, limited inside the boundary of the cage for other usages

• Matter Manipulation (Quantum): His gravity power can compress[17] everything, down to nothing.[14] He can also compress something down to the size he want

2. if hearts squishes zeus, zeus just turns into the concept of fear itself and hearts is cooked

He won’t it’s like a form of super sealing he’d be gone forever. But let’s just assume he does, what’s Zeus gonna do look at Hearts very hard? His concept form doesn’t protect his history from getting erased as they’re completely different aspects Zeus literally has no wincon and his only Imcon is based off a NLF interpretation of his state of being.

 

[omegabronic]

Ignoring the immense levels of headcanon to assume that his astral form isn’t bound by dimensionality even though it is. There’s nothing stopping him from squashing the planet or the environment they’re in thus Zeus

his "astral" form which is a first i saw people calling it that, is literally a type 1 concept, Hearts literally can't even interact with it, much less "crush" it

His avatar form also isn’t gonna save him from his history

considering that hearts can't affect/erase type 1 concepts, his all of history EE is not gonna do much to Fear at all

being deleted especially since hearts has passive gravity crush and paralysis inducement. Zeus’s best hope is a incon but he has no wincons literally.

so what you are saying is that his body is going to be immediately crushed, thus becoming a type 1 concept via Fear and making it so that Hearts just can't win via being completely unable to even hit him with anything at all?

Gravity Manipulation: Hearts' signature ability, called Supergravity, allows him to manipulate gravity and its direction,[14][11][15][12][13][16] such forcing his opponents to the ground, drag them to him and "move" them around, push them far away, etc...He can also creates Gravity Cage which is another extension of his gravity power, limited inside the boundary of the cage for other usages

• Matter Manipulation (Quantum): His gravity power can compress[17] everything, down to nothing.[14] He can also compress something down to the size he want

cool and all.......still can't interact with the type 1 concept that is Fear and Zeus' soul, as said multiple times above, his body is really a non factor here

He won’t it’s like a form of super sealing he’d be gone forever.

pretty sure being squashed like would kill him, regarldless, unless that has shown to be able to affects Conceptual type 1 AE, then this won't matter at all

But let’s just assume he does, what’s Zeus gonna do look at Hearts very hard?

or corrupt him, or take away all his powers, or just use Death manip on him, or conceptual manip him, etc

His concept form doesn’t protect his history from getting erased as they’re completely different aspects Zeus literally has no wincon and his only Imcon is based off a NLF interpretation of his state of being.

nah, it is just that Hearts literally can't erase concepts, therefore he can't erase Fear or Zeus' Soul

also the one not understanding the power of Fear is you, altering his body won't matter much for Fear itself, it is his soul


also if Hearts gravity is so strong......won't it just kill Zeus at the start?

 

[Spicy78]

Ignoring the immense levels of headcanon to assume that his astral form isn’t bound by dimensionality even though it is. There’s nothing stopping him from squashing the planet or the environment they’re in thus Zeus

and? fear zeus can just emerge in space. hell, regular gods can survive in tbe vacuum of space, so the concept of feat itself would be juuust fine in there

His avatar form also isn’t gonna save him from his history being deleted especially since hearts has passive gravity crush and paralysis inducement.

the range is 2km. if hearts doesn't have passives of that range and he has to actually move to incap zeus, zeus can do the same and incon

Zeus’s best hope is a incon but he has no wincons literally.

bruh, he can destroy hearts' mind, soul and concept by just raising his hand, can powernull him with his lightning, he can attack him telepathically... wdym zeus has no wincons???

Gravity Manipulation: Hearts' signature ability, called Supergravity, allows him to manipulate gravity and its direction,[14][11][15][12][13][16] such forcing his opponents to the ground, drag them to him and "move" them around, push them far away, etc...He can also creates Gravity Cage which is another extension of his gravity power, limited inside the boundary of the cage for other usages

• Matter Manipulation (Quantum): His gravity power can compress[17] everything, down to nothing.[14] He can also compress something down to the size he want

He won’t it’s like a form of super sealing he’d be gone forever.

having a thing "be gone forever" and reduced into nothing" is just EE, not dimensional manip

But let’s just assume he does, what’s Zeus gonna do look at Hearts very hard?

look two replies above

His concept form doesn’t protect his history from getting erased as they’re completely different aspects Zeus literally has no wincon and his only Imcon is based off a NLF interpretation of his state of being.

idk about that tho. sure, hearts can EE the history of zeus in his base form (and thus he can erase the events that lead to the creation of fear zeus) but if zeus becomes the concept itself, that would mean that hearts must interact with a concept (something that he cannot do)

 

[ChoursDropoff]

his "astral" form which is a first i saw people calling it that, is literally a type 1 concept, Hearts literally can't even interact with it, much less "crush" it

This is one of his starting moves when Zeus is physically present he can definitely be interacted with. Hearts can crush him in 0D and just win then it’s not a “attack” so Zeus isn’t gonna become a concept or whatever he’d be sealed.

considering that hearts can't affect/erase type 1 concepts, his all of history EE is not gonna do much to Fear at all

What you seem to not understand is that these aspects aren’t interchangeable that’s the point. His AE protects from type 1 conceptual abilities and anything that doesn’t attack any fundamental aspects he doesn’t resist. This is like saying he can resist his plot getting nuked because he’s a concept it’s a NLF especially for a aspect that doesn’t even exist in verse.

so what you are saying is that his body is going to be immediately crushed, thus becoming a type 1 concept via Fear and making it so that Hearts just can't win via being completely unable to even hit him with anything at all?

His body isn’t taking damage I’ve said this before he’d be sealed GG fight over.

cool and all.......still can't interact with the type 1 concept that is Fear and Zeus' soul, as said multiple times above, his body is really a non factor here

He starts with this dawg he’s never gonna become a concept.

pretty sure being squashed like would kill him, regarldless, unless that has shown to be able to affects Conceptual type 1 AE, then this won't matter at all

No it wouldn’t he’s shown to be able to even reduce the size of things without damaging it worse comes to worse he paralyzed Zeus and calmly walks over and hits him with his history EE which he doesn’t resist

or corrupt him, or take away all his powers, or just use Death manip on him, or conceptual manip him, etc

He’d be paralyzed before that happened plus he resist his CM is only really a factor if he’s in his AE 1 state the rest. And his death hax literature requires physical touch which is a non issue for his PASSIVE gravity manipulation

nah, it is just that Hearts literally can't erase concepts, therefore he can't erase Fear or Zeus' Soul

The point your ignoring is that his state of being won’t be a factor ignoring the fact that this is predicated on a very long string of unlikely events happening to allow Zeus to enter a state that will at best net him a incon. It’s the fact his history is still vulnerable that’s how the wiki standards work less we fall into the realm of nlf this exemplifies this point perfectly.

also the one not understanding the power of Fear is you, altering his body won't matter much for Fear itself, it is his soul

As stated here he only becomes fear upon his physical bodies death of course this isn’t gonna account for history EE or sealing so this isn’t a important point.

also if Hearts gravity is so strong......won't it just kill Zeus at the start?

Nah we see he can reduce the size of things without damaging it.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

and? fear zeus can just emerge in space. hell, regular gods can survive in tbe vacuum of space, so the concept of feat itself would be juuust fine in there


the range is 2km. if hearts doesn't have passives of that range and he has to actually move to incap zeus, zeus can do the same and incon


bruh, he can destroy hearts' mind, soul and concept by just raising his hand, can powernull him with his lightning, he can attack him telepathically... wdym zeus has no wincons???


having a thing "be gone forever" and reduced into nothing" is just EE, not dimensional manip


look two replies above


idk about that tho. sure, hearts can EE the history of zeus in his base form (and thus he can erase the events that lead to the creation of fear zeus) but if zeus becomes the concept itself, that would mean that hearts must interact with a concept (something that he cannot do)

I’ve address most the points up above but to recap one aspects aren’t interchangeable and Zeus AE does allow him to resist the proper aspect.

And ain’t no way GoW fans have resorted to making things up. him “reducing” you to nothing is tied to his gravity manipulation not his EE.