Zeno (Dragon Ball Super) tier discussion

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aizen and what Azzy said earlier has a point about that, so i agree to taking out the At least part before the 3-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will remove it.

 

[Stefano4444]

I still need to understand for what reason, DBS God Tiers are only able to destroy the physical matter of the universe?

It was be clarify by Old Kai that not only the Living World, but also Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm would have been affected and destroyed by the fight between Beerus and Goku SSjG (basically the entire 7 Universe), as he stated that even the gods would have die (included Kibito and himself).

Which it's also back up by the fact that those shockwaves were able to reach and affect both Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm, which are separate dimensions. Even the light generate by the energy clash (the one that Beerus had nullify) was be visible in the Kaioshin Realm.

If Beerus and Goku were only able to destroy the physical matter of the Living World, then neither Afterlife or Kaioshin Realm would have been affected by the destruction, so neither Kitio or Old Kai would have die. which is not the case. And is not like the first time we see that DB characters are capable to affect/damage space-time, even Super Buu was able to create a wormhole in the Buu Saga.

Even a fight between Beerus and Champa was potentially able to destroy both 7 Universe and 6 Universe, which they were been show in the last episode, to be also separated (like the Kaioshin Realm, compare with the Living World).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, all that we were shown during the Goku and Beerus fight was that the shockwaves were destroying planets and stars. It seems very uncertain that the entire continuum would disappear, unless we get explicit proof.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

At least 3-A, likely 2-C. (Beerus stated Zeno could destroy all 12 Universes with a wink)

 

[Mister_Death]

It's as I said before, I seriously doubt if Zeno destroys whatever, that any time would remain

What, will we see Trunks all safe and sound in his timeline or something? No, all timelines are dead, all 12 universes are dead and recreated by god knows what.

It seems even more sillier to assume that all 12 universes resides in the same 3D space, almost seems like someone doesnt want DB getting solid 2-C or higher

 

[Stefano4444]

Well, all that we were shown during the Goku and Beerus fight was that the shockwaves were destroying planets and stars. It seems very uncertain that the entire continuum would disappear, unless we get explicit proof.

If those shockwaves were only going to destroy the physical matter of the Living World, then how they were able to reach and affect both Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm too (as they are separated dimensions, especially in the case of the Kaioshin Realm)?

And if what you said was the case, then why Old Kai stated instead that even gods would have die, if the destruction was only going to affect the physical matter of the Living World (which would mean that King Kai, Kibito and etc. would have been saved)?

And yes, we see that only stars and planets were be destroyed, but this was the side effect of the fight in anycase, as they don't rappresent the true level of power of Beerus and Goku SSjG (or then they should be rank as star busters, than multi galaxy busters).

 

[Stefano4444]

It seems even more sillier to assume that all 12 universes resides in the same 3D space

I'm pretty sure that nothing in the last episodes suggest something like this.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Again, it's entirely possible to affect the physical matter from different spaces via multi-universal range not AP, the Universes were clearly shown to lie on the same plane of existence (though they aren't connected in anyway) and Trunks exist in an alternate reality. Assuming a completely divergent timeline is affected when nothing even hints to this occurence is fallacious.

 

[Antvasima]

@Stefano4444

Well, we tend to make a massive distinction between mere multi-universal range, and actual 4-Dimensional power to destroy an entire timeline.

Regardless, I don't think that we are going to upgrade Beerus, Champa, Whis, Vados, Goku, and Hit to Low 2-C or above without explicit proof that they affect an entire space-time continuum. This may or may not happen later on, but for now they remain as they are.

I would suggest that you permanently drop this matter, as your obsession with upgrading Dragon Ball, year in and year out, is turning obnoxious.

That said, I will inform Lord Kavpeny about this thread, to see what he thinks.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Anybody proposing to upgrade Dragon Ball to 2C without proof of spacetime destruction will get a warning. Please drop the topic immediately, as Ant said

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

So, if anyone doesnt agree with you, you give them a warning and a possible ban?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Arguments are fine. Wank isn't. That is, insisting something is factual without actually providing proper evidence.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

no kyle he gave a warning only because nobody should try to upgrade DB to 2C so soon I love DB to death and would love to see it be 2C but it hasn't happen yet we can discuss it if there is new feats that happen in the upcoming episode

 

[Mister_Death]

@Mighty

When was it stated it was an alternate reality? I remember trunks saying it was a different timeline which branched off the original one, and I doubt bulma had the technology to travel to another reality. Lets talk about "reality". Besides the 12 universes, there has not been a single mention of different realities. Plus, its a time machine, not a "reality crossing machine" any other insights into this, hmm?

Besides that, while there is no "proof" to support the vague "spacetime" destruction, there is also no proof to contradict Zeno's DC either. Zeno annhilating 12 universes and leaving nothing left supports spacetime destruction on its lonesome, and to be honest, besides that, what kind of proof is solid or concrete is there to support Spacetime destruction if that isnt enough? I would love to provide further insight, but when I keep hearing things like "spacetime destruction" I only wonder to myself how much more needs to be provided?

 

[Alexcar3000]

Just for reference:

Even if Zeno-sama was able to destroy all of the timelines in each Universe, that would still be only 2-C as we don't know how many timelines there are (at least 4 for Universe 7).

We need to have at least 84 timelines in each Universe to reach 2-B. And an infinite amount of them to reach 2-A (I think destroying 12 sets of "infinite timelines" would be at least 2-A).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

The future timelines (both the one which Trunks came from and the one which Cell came from) are alternate versions of universe seven. They are separate timelines which require their own space-time continuums. I would assume this means each universe can possibly have alternate variations, and the group of 12 different ones acts more as its own bubble, I suppose. We don't know if Trunks' timeline has a Universe 6, but Universe 7's group of 12 universes certainly doesn't contain Trunks' timeline.

 

[Mister_Death]

^ And how exactly do we know that for certain? You said certainly, but I don't see any certainty. We're talking about the Omni-King. That's a bold title. King of Everything. I doubt Trunk's timeline, even if for some ungodly reason it were seperate, would be safe. Though thats just speculation and it doesnt add to my argument of solid 2-C Zeno.


But I just saw something, I don't know if my eyes are deceiving me, so correct me if Im mistaken.


Why in the name of whatever Sky God exists in our real world, is Zen'o NOT atleast 3-A? His Possibly 2-C rating is perfectly fine, but we're talking about a guy that not only made Beerus, a 3-A character sweat buckets, but is hinted at being able to wipe out everything. As far as I'm concered, even where spacetime is concerned, thats atleast High 3-A, not even just 3-A.

You know, unless of course you believe that destroying 12 infinitely large universes somehow doesnt constitute atleast High 3-A. regardless whether they're connected or not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Simple. Because they're not infinite. Why else do you think that Beerus isn't already high 3-A. Also, you gave a definite number.

 

[Mister_Death]

^ What proof is there to suggest they aren't infinite? I've never seen a discussion regarding that, all I've read is pretty much the acceptance that the Universe 7 is the same size as our WHOLE universe. Not to mention the four galaxies thing is officially dead and I'll continue beating the dead horse until everyone knows it.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

^ What proof is there to suggest they aren't infinite? I've never seen a discussion regarding that, all I've read is pretty much the acceptance that the Universe 7 is the same size as our WHOLE universe. Not to mention the four galaxies thing is officially dead and I'll continue beating the dead horse until everyone knows it.

Because it has an edge. You're grasping at straws now. Please drop the topic immediately, otherwise you'll receive a warning

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

1. Because Whis explained the idea behind the universe pairings. 6 and 7 are a pair, meaning they're very similar, and the others are different. One of the others certainly isn't just an almost identical version of Universe 7 up until Future Trunks' life.

2. If we assumed every universe to be infinite without explicit statement, every 3-A character would be High 3-A. I'm also pretty sure the DB universes, while massive, aren't infinite, as they have borders and edges.

 

[Mister_Death]

^ What proof is there to suggest they aren't infinite? I've never seen a discussion regarding that, all I've read is pretty much the acceptance that the Universe 7 is the same size as our WHOLE universe. Not to mention the four galaxies thing is officially dead and I'll continue beating the dead horse until everyone knows it.

Because it has an edge. You're grasping at straws now. Please drop the topic immediately, otherwise you'll receive a warning

You seem to enjoy giving warnings to those who simply debate, not to mention I just got here.

Oh, and I guess before I "drop the topic"I'd like to mention there is a big different between edge and outskirts. Just saying.

-Drops the topic-

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Outskirts" refers to the fringes of something, which by definition means it would be finite.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

You seem to enjoy giving warnings to those who simply debate, not to mention I just got here.

Oh, and I guess before I "drop the topic"I'd like to mention there is a big different between edge and outskirts. Just saying.

-Drops the topic-

We have had an influx of trolls recently who're repeating the same points relentlessly. Any upgrade to High 3-A requires explicit proof, that's why the tiers are kept separate.

Warnings are necessary to keep the wankers at bay, if you're not one them then act properly. An infinite universe doesn't have outskirt, it's boundless by definition.

 

[Sophia_Athena]

Well said, Mister Death.


Faisal should be banned.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Sophia

I would edit what you just said if you don't wanna get blocked.

Fasial is a part of staff...

 

[Mister_Death]

Back to said topic, whats the word from the higher ups on Zeno? Is he going to stay where he is indefinitely? Honestly, no matter what, it doesnt seem like there is any possible way this thread can change that to be honest. Unless we get some Xenoverse level story plot, there wont be any real dramatic upgrades.


Though I am wondering what is keeping Zeno from the 2-C tier, I read its because the 12 universes are in the same 3-D Space or something. While I still stand by my thoughts that I think that cant be, I guess I dont have proof to well, prove otherwise.

Well, a "Possibly 2-C" Tier is a victory in my book regardless of the outcome

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Currently he'll be "3-A, possibly 2-C" until there are more feats or statements. 3-A for being vastly stronger than characters like Beerus and being able to destroy (at least) the physical matter of 12 universes, and "possibly 2-C" in case he can actually wipe out 12 (6?) space-time continuums.

 

[Mister_Death]

^Azathotep

I've come to recently learn proving space time destruction for dragon ball is for some reason the hardest thing to prove, or to disprove too.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Yeah, better to assume the DB Universe isn't involved in Space-time destruction yet, for now.

Now for the Super Shenron, I was wondering how he is at Low 2-C again?

 

[Mister_Death]

^Where is Super Shenrons page?

Also, Space Time destruction probably is possible, maybe even for beerus, but meh, no evidence, so yeah.

I'll let the more experienced peeps decide the outcome on the god tiers of DB~

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, it seems that Zalama (Super Shenron)'s page has been removed. Here is Zarama btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-H_Ysxgzs

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Please don't create a new Super Shenron page until we've discussed his tiering.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's not Zarama. Zarama is the one who created the Super Dragon Balls. That's Super Shenron.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Please don't create a new Super Shenron page until we've discussed his tiering.

That page should preferably not created anytime soon, the fanboys will create more stomp threads with it since Super Shenron can't fight on it's own and can only grant wishes. They don't really spend their time reading and understanding the tiering system

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Perhaps we should make a " Note: Due to the nature of Shenron's abilities, they can't be applicable to a battle. Creating vs threads with this character is not advised." On its page.

 

[Ryukama]

Perhaps we should make a " Note: Due to the nature of Shenron's abilities, they can't be applicable to a battle. Creating vs threads with this character is not advised." On its page.

That sounds like a great suggestion. There are plenty characters/profiles on here that are unusable for VS threads and exist to index the powers. I believe a SS page that specifies that he is one of those types would be good.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Perhaps we should make a " Note: Due to the nature of Shenron's abilities, they can't be applicable to a battle. Creating vs threads with this character is not advised." On its page.

Ok then, if the profile is created I suggest the note is put on top of the page so that it' noticed easily

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Ok. I'll see to that personally. I feel that limiting our profiles to the fighting genre will limit our potential as a wikia.