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Super Shenron Low-1C real?

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Using statements like "he can do anything" is never going to be accepted here


I just have one question

Zeno's erasure is 5d in potency right?

Are we assuming he used a 4d version of the technique for the universes?
 
Jaakor48 said:
Using statements like "he can do anything" is never going to be accepted here


I just have one question

Zeno's erasure is 5d in potency right?

Are we assuming he used a 4d version of the technique for the universes?
Click to expand...
if he only erased the 4D universes........then he only ersed the 4D universes
 
Another reason why I'm iffy on this upgrade (a lesser one, but a reason) is that DBS does a lot of retcons about powers and cans-cannots when they rely on statements alone main offender being Beerus. Would feel like a clown if I said yes here then tomorrow we see the dragon be all But Messing with Zen'ou is beyond my power.

Think it best to play safe, unless I missed some scans somewhere.
 
Jaakor48 said:
Is that how it works? I thought the size of the structure was just range when it came to things like ee hax
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im pretty sure it is just range. If you destroy someone's existence of like an 1-A level you need a comparable amount of hax to undo it
 
Jaakor48 said:
Is that how it works? I thought the size of the structure was just range when it came to things like ee hax
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......Alright. Let me put this in terms that can be understood.

Bob, who can soul destroy the Living Tribunal, does that to Alice. Chuck goes to the location and idk, rewinds time there so she comes back. It doesn't mean he has Low 1-A time rewind.
 
Planck69 said:
......Alright. Let me put this in terms that can be understood.

Bob, who can soul destroy the Living Tribunal, does that to Alice. Chuck goes to the location and idk, rewinds time there so she comes back. It doesn't mean he has Low 1-A time rewind.
Click to expand...
Living tribunal is high 1a ratio+L
 
Planck69 said:
......Alright. Let me put this in terms that can be understood.

Bob, who can soul destroy the Living Tribunal, does that to Alice. Chuck goes to the location and idk, rewinds time there so she comes back. It doesn't mean he has Low 1-A time rewind.
Click to expand...
time rewinding is completely different from undoing EE
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
time rewinding is completely different from undoing EE
Click to expand...
The point stands. There isn't some "lingering power" or whatever that needs equivalent power to overcome. Shenron can absolutely just warp reality to restore the destroyed universes without needing anything more than 4-dimensional potency, unless we have actual confirmation that he's overcoming Zen'o's power outright at that moment.
 
I honestly think Super Shenron shouldn’t even be 2-C. There’s no statement that his creation ability scales to ki and AP whatsoever. So I definitely disagree with this.
 
I still haven't looked deeply into the Dragon Ball series as of posting this message, so I'm sorry if my analysis is inaccurate to other relevant information that I don't know about.

Super Shenron restoring seven universes is just that, restoring seven universes, a tier 2-C feat. Zeno being capable of erasing more, and Zeno having been the character who erased those seven universes, doesn't change the fact that Zeno simply didn't erase more than seven universes, so Super Shenron didn't need more than tier 2-C wish granting to bring the universes back. Zeno's maximum range implies that his existence erasure has 5D potency, but this only concerns overpowering inferior resistances to existence erasure, not undoing damage that isn't on the maximum scale that Zeno could destroy. As a comparison example, if a character can erase a universe, and they use that ability to merely erase a rock within the universe, there's no reason to believe that another character just trying to replace the rock needs a universal creation ability, since it doesn't take a universe's power to destroy or create a rock, regardless of what destroyed or created it.

It's important to keep in mind that it's possible that Super Shenron being able to do "anything" and having "no limitation" was only to the standards of the multiple universes he was shown to be capable of restoring, so you need to be careful and make sure to determine if the statements were reliable and if the statements truly imply that Super Shenron has that kind of power to the standards of Zeno. I haven't seen the occurrence where Zeno says that Super Shenron can do anything, so it's important to determine whether or not Zeno was talking to the standards of characters who are inferior to him, and determine whether or not Zeno was just referring to reality warping in general as the ability to do "anything". If Zeno is portrayed as having no limitations, Super Shenron was stated to have no limitations in the same way, and having no limitations in this way is considered as tier Low 1-C in the Dragon Ball series, then it might be implied that the Zeno and Super Shenron are characters are in the same tier Low 1-C league of capabilities, even though one can be stronger than the other. Scaling one character to another doesn't mean they necessarily have the exact same extent of power. If Zeno is stronger than Super Shenron, then Super Shenron could be ranked as Low 1-C based on what Zeno could do, and Zeno could be considered as undefeatable by those standards, leading to the scaling being considered as "Super Shenron (tier Low 1-C) ≪ Zeno (scales far above Super Shenron)". Super Shenron could maybe even merely be ranked as "possibly" tier Low 1-C, if the certainty of this ranking is still too debatable.

I'll provide an analogy scenario to help with understanding. A super scientist character invented time travel technology and other impressive inventions like that, can replicate talents after seeing them only one time, is considered as having "immeasurable intelligence" with years of experience using it, and has reliable dialogue. This inventor character's intelligence rank would be "Extraordinary Genius" on the VS Battles Wiki. This inventor character said and truly believes that a less renowned inventor that he knows of also has "immeasurable intelligence". However, that other inventor lacks the evidence of being capable of what the first one that I described is capable of, only having been shown to make impressive technology of lower standards that proves a regular "Genius" rank. Regardless, the first inventor's reliable statement established that the intelligence of the less renowned inventor probably scales to him, and established that the less renowned inventor has more potential than what was demonstrated. It would be very fair to rank the characters as being within the same "Extraordinary Genius" league of intelligence. At the very least, the less renowned inventor should be ranked as "Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius", with that higher interpretation not even being as much "Extraordinary Genius" intelligence as the first inventor who has the better feats. However, if the first inventor's statement was actually only referring to a specific type of intelligence, rather than the same nature of his own intelligence, then it lacks the context to use as evidence of scaling, since the first inventor's capabilities are more vast to be narrowed down to one specific type of intelligence.

Zeno and Super Shenron seem to have the same kind of relationship as the characters that I made up in the aforementioned analogy. Instead of genius intelligence between two characters, it's Zeno's overall power and the potency Super Shenron's wish granting. Instead of the key phrase that may or may not indicate scaling being "immeasurable intelligence", it's "no limitation". Some of the people disagreeing with this thread's proposal seem to be taking "no limitation" too literally. I think that the person who posted this thread thinks that the statements imply a connection and are evidence of scaling, not that Super Shenron and Zeno both have literally "no limitation", since that would obviously be contradicted by the fact it would imply that both of them could defeat each other when that should be impossible. Of course, at the same time, being cautious about hyperboles is wise, and disagreeing with the thread's proposal might be the wise course of action.
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
I still haven't looked deeply into the Dragon Ball series as of posting this message, so I'm sorry if my analysis is inaccurate to other relevant information that I don't know about.

Super Shenron restoring seven universes is just that, restoring seven universes, a tier 2-C feat. Zeno being capable of erasing more, and Zeno having been the character who erased those seven universes, doesn't change the fact that Zeno simply didn't erase more than seven universes, so Super Shenron didn't need more than tier 2-C wish granting to bring the universes back. Zeno's maximum range implies that his existence erasure has 5D potency, but this only concerns overpowering inferior resistances to existence erasure, not undoing damage that isn't on the maximum scale that Zeno could destroy. As a comparison example, if a character can erase a universe, and they use that ability to merely erase a rock within the universe, there's no reason to believe that another character just trying to replace the rock needs a universal creation ability, since it doesn't take a universe's power to destroy or create a rock, regardless of what destroyed or created it.

It's important to keep in mind that it's possible that Super Shenron being able to do "anything" and having "no limitation" was only to the standards of the multiple universes he was shown to be capable of restoring, so you need to be careful and make sure to determine if the statements were reliable and if the statements truly imply that Super Shenron has that kind of power to the standards of Zeno. I haven't seen the occurrence where Zeno says that Super Shenron can do anything, so it's important to determine whether or not Zeno was talking to the standards of characters who are inferior to him, and determine whether or not Zeno was just referring to reality warping in general as the ability to do "anything". If Zeno is portrayed as having no limitations, Super Shenron was stated to have no limitations in the same way, and having no limitations in this way is considered as tier Low 1-C in the Dragon Ball series, then it might be implied that the Zeno and Super Shenron are characters are in the same tier Low 1-C league of capabilities, even though one can be stronger than the other. Scaling one character to another doesn't mean they necessarily have the exact same extent of power. If Zeno is stronger than Super Shenron, then Super Shenron could be ranked as Low 1-C based on what Zeno could do, and Zeno could be considered as undefeatable by those standards, leading to the scaling being considered as "Super Shenron (tier Low 1-C) ≪ Zeno (scales far above Super Shenron)". Super Shenron could maybe even merely be ranked as "possibly" tier Low 1-C, if the certainty of this ranking is still too debatable.

I'll provide an analogy scenario to help with understanding. A super scientist character invented time travel technology and other impressive inventions like that, can replicate talents after seeing them only one time, is considered as having "immeasurable intelligence" with years of experience using it, and has reliable dialogue. This inventor character's intelligence rank would be "Extraordinary Genius" on the VS Battles Wiki. This inventor character said and truly believes that a less renowned inventor that he knows of also has "immeasurable intelligence". However, that other inventor lacks the evidence of being capable of what the first one that I described is capable of, only having been shown to make impressive technology of lower standards that proves a regular "Genius" rank. Regardless, the first inventor's reliable statement established that the intelligence of the less renowned inventor probably scales to him, and established that the less renowned inventor has more potential than what was demonstrated. It would be very fair to rank the characters as being within the same "Extraordinary Genius" league of intelligence. At the very least, the less renowned inventor should be ranked as "Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius", with that higher interpretation not even being as much "Extraordinary Genius" intelligence as the first inventor who has the better feats. However, if the first inventor's statement was actually only referring to a specific type of intelligence, rather than the same nature of his own intelligence, then it lacks the context to use as evidence of scaling, since the first inventor's capabilities are more vast to be narrowed down to one specific type of intelligence.

Zeno and Super Shenron seem to have the same kind of relationship as the characters that I made up in the aforementioned analogy. Instead of genius intelligence between two characters, it's Zeno's overall power and the potency Super Shenron's wish granting. Instead of the key phrase that may or may not indicate scaling being "immeasurable intelligence", it's "no limitation". Some of the people disagreeing with this thread's proposal seem to be taking "no limitation" too literally. I think that the person who posted this thread thinks that the statements imply a connection and are evidence of scaling, not that Super Shenron and Zeno both have literally "no limitation", since that would obviously be contradicted by the fact it would imply that both of them could defeat each other when that should be impossible. Of course, at the same time, being cautious about hyperboles is wise, and disagreeing with the thread's proposal might be the wise course of action.
Click to expand...
Do you agree or disagree?

And damn how much time it took you to write all of this
 
I swear I tried this before, it got rejected due to NLF, but if DDM can find that statement, that'd be great tbh. I mean, narratively, it makes sense super shenron could undo what zeno did, like restoring an entire timeline for example. But we just lack the feats of him doing so, the most he scales to is 7 universes. So i'm gonna disagree unless we have the statement.
 
Planck69 said:
......Alright. Let me put this in terms that can be understood.

Bob, who can soul destroy the Living Tribunal, does that to Alice. Chuck goes to the location and idk, rewinds time there so she comes back. It doesn't mean he has Low 1-A time rewind.
Click to expand...
No I get all this, even though this analogy is quite poor lol. I just assumed when it came to erasure and restoration, they treated then based on their potency. But one other thing , the immortality it grabbed Zamasu resisted tier 2 EE, I was told that the difference between tier 2C, 2B and 2A EE is just range, not potency, would a possibly tier 1 reality warping come about his feats with Zamasu?
Serlock_Holmes said:
So how does Shenron know what to recreate?
Click to expand...
I don't think he outright recreated them, I think he just restored them back, bit if he did, I guess divine magic hits different

GarrixianXD said:
I honestly think Super Shenron shouldn’t even be 2-C. There’s no statement that his creation ability scales to ki and AP whatsoever. So I definitely disagree with this.
Click to expand...
He's a wish granting dragon, the potency of his reality warping ability is what's being debated , he already has the feat or restoring multiple 2c structures at once
 
Planck69 said:
The point stands. There isn't some "lingering power" or whatever that needs equivalent power to overcome. Shenron can absolutely just warp reality to restore the destroyed universes without needing anything more than 4-dimensional potency, unless we have actual confirmation that he's overcoming Zen'o's power outright at that moment.
Click to expand...
This. No reason to assume that you need to overpower the character responsible for any given feat, unless it is said that their powers have some kind of property where their full extent remains even after the deed is done, roadblocking.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It is confirmed Super Shenron is more than capable of creation/destruction exceeding even Zeno or could grant someone power that would make even the likes of Zeno no match for them. Though the "Limitless" statements are indeed iffy.
Click to expand...
can you find this scan?
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
Meaning he changed time?
Click to expand...
Doubtful, they wouldn't all appear in their respective universes like that, unless you assume he both rewinds time and ported them

I believe he just ..did what 17 asked, he restored them, he just undid the erase effects and apparently sent them all back to their universes, the specifics weren't stated


Just chuck it up as reality warping until we know more
 
Jaakor48 said:
Doubtful, they wouldn't all appear in their respective universes like that, unless you assume he both rewinds time and ported them

I believe he just ..did what 17 asked, he restored them, he just undid the erase effects and apparently sent them all back to their universes, the specifics weren't stated


Just chuck it up as reality warping until we know more.
Click to expand...
My problem is how could he know what to recreate down to memories and such? Should he get nigh-omniscience?
 
Planck69 said:
The point stands. There isn't some "lingering power" or whatever that needs equivalent power to overcome. Shenron can absolutely just warp reality to restore the destroyed universes without needing anything more than 4-dimensional potency, unless we have actual confirmation that he's overcoming Zen'o's power outright at that moment.
Click to expand...
Doesnt that beat the point of EE having a "potency" though?
 
Jaakor48 said:
cosmic awareness seems more appropriate, I think even the lower dragons like shenron have this on their profile
Click to expand...
My problem is there was nothing to know off. Even their souls were erased and he just recreated them at the exact point of their deletion. No idea if cosmic awareness supports this. But Shenron knew everything about everyone in the universes. But if cosmic awareness fits more then okay.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
My problem is there was nothing to know off. Even their souls were erased and he just recreated them at the exact point of their deletion. No idea if cosmic awareness supports this. But Shenron knew everything about everyone in the universes. But if cosmic awareness fits more then okay.
Click to expand...
I actually just went and rechecked how cosmic awareness is defined on this site


It doesn't fit

Night omniscience fits better for what he did tbh
 
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Planck69 said:
Ffs, no. Zen'o's power is still Low 1-C. If he EEs a 4-dimensional being without resistance, they're still getting erased. It just means that nothing stops another being with reality warping from bringing them back.
Click to expand...
Then what is the potency getting measured in? If a 4d being can restore 5D EE, then that EE is only 5D in range. From my knowledge, you cant come back from EE except if the level of regen is greater than the level of EE, or you equal or exceed the potency.
 
Jaakor48 said:
I actually just went and rechecked hie cosmic awareness is defined


It doesn't fit

Night omniscience fits better for what he did tbh
Click to expand...
Yeah there wasn't something he could be aware off. At least if they had souls you could argue it's cosmic awareness but not here.
 
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