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Strym, do you know that you don't have to be a **** to make points in an argument?
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Zamasu and his bad AE
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
- Start date
- Status
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- Thread starter
- #122
This was not reffering to Infinite Zamasu for one. Second, being a living thought is not a conceptual embodiment, Antispiral is not a concept for example.
That's just a very weak evidence. It can be argued as merely him overpowering everything too weak after merging with the universe.
The TOEI timeline says that his will engulfed the universe and the Blu Ray says that he became his own ideas.
Aka it means that he became his will to bring his idea of justice, and nothing else.
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Putting aside the fact that being more abstract than emotions/thoughts doesn't make you conceptual existence, instead just AE type 1 of emotions/thoughts getting layered; why does his emotions/thoughts become real have anything to do with being more abstract in the first place?
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The name dropping argument all over again. Really?
I'll be waiting for Viet to respond.
I'll be waiting for Viet to respond.
NiniAtheist2005
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Yep, it doesn't refer to IZ but it concerns him
I don't say that, I'm just demonstrating that "idea" in the context is conceptual, because idea are not always concept, right?
I don't quite understand your first point...can you explain more
The Kanji "念" doesn't mean will
In the first place, his ideals don't work, or show everyone his own emotions/thoughts with justice and order don't work, then he becomes will is useful What? It should be made clear that if he becomes the will, it won't change anything, it will only make the mortal people see more clearly that ideal, over there Zamasu wants to change and is about to achieve justice and order just like what he is doing during Saga
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NiniAthiest sounds like he's being open-minded, it just means that both interpretations can be seen as equally accurate.
NiniAtheist2005
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it's true, being more abstract emotions/thoughts doesn't make you a conceptual entity but given the Blu-ray context and the exclusion method I think it works for IZ
But what I mean is that kanji "念" means emotions and thoughts and ideas, if in the first place he could have become feelings and thoughts but it didn't work for his ideal then why doesn't he become something efficient enough to fulfill his ideal, yes I mean he becomes literally justice and order
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"Zamasu is trying to become Justice and order" is literally stated.
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Yeah, and there are still statements from Saga Zamasu in DBX 2 citing that he became that.
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Fair enough, that seems to at least disprove the point about him being a thought/emotion.
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It is proof he’s said to try to become Justice and Order in the game and nearly the same scenario it’s mentioned again and Infinite Zamasu comes nearly later it’s obvious
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He did became the most efficient thing there could to execute his ideals throughout the universe, and that is becoming the Universe and it's spacetime itself, he has now approach to every corner to every point in time to execute and spread his zero mortal ideal. So the point that he should become something efficient is moot as it doesn't contradict that he has became something efficient already. Coming to being concept will only work if he has became everyone sense of justice and all throughout the universe, which is not the case, not to mention it'll lead to him being conceptual being and zeno having conceptual manipulation when we don't grant it unless there is a explaination about the nature of concept a being is.
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It really isn't. What you think is obvious and what we're given aren't the same.
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Conceptual Manipulation is manipulating something. Zenō doesn't do that.
"But it'll lead to-" nothing, that's not an argument.
"You need the word" no, you don't. Refer to Lavos' CM for that.
He was trying to become the justice and order of the universe. That's stated.
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It is usually explained that something that happens in one line does not affect another, literally he can be the concept of order and justice there, as long as it is only from that Universe, but he was going to other timelines, in Xenoverse 2 this is explained about the concept of la justice
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It does as long as has destroyed Zamasu as per the arguements of the thread, a concept.
It is, the very point of the thread that Zamasu is a concept of justice and order of the universe will lead to him or others having conceptual manipulation which we don't grant in any case unless there is a explaination about nature of concept. and if it's not Type 1,2,3 concept as it lacks any kind of explaination, then mentioning or not mentioning concept is moot for either AE or conceptual manipulation.
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We even rejected it in the last thread, and you were there too.
No. Goku and co. would get NPI at best.
This has been common knowledge for a lot of time.
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Agree,i always had a sus with this Infinite Zamasu thinggy tbh
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that is vague on its own, why would it mean concept?
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That's because Zamasu being concept was absurd and if zeno doesn't have conceptual manipulation, then the point of Zamasu being concept is done. Same for the 2nd point.
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We don't give concept hax to people who can interact with concepts. Unless they can actually alter them.
Just NPI, so Goku and co. wouldn't have the former in any case.
Zenō being able to nuke IZ is pointed on his profile. So at best the only one who should have that is him.
"It's absurd"
Reiner, you're better than that.
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We give it those who has resisted it tho. IZ being concept of justice and order would affect everyone sense of judgement unless they have resistance to it. He has became concept itself and so everything is he. Also the point of we discussing it has no justification as nature of this ideal, will or whatever (depends on the kanji) is unexplained to grant anything whatsoever.
It's a conceptual manipulation if Zamasu is concept.
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Also to make it clear, I am not suggesting to nuke his AE but only change the description of it mentioned in the profile from being concept, as it's misleading if those one resisted or destroyed it doesn't have conceptual manipulation, also, it is unexplained to grant it and misleading. Just replace it with something else.
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I think I agree with Reiner
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Because it’s stated he would become ideas and will from the various sources along with that it’s not just that statement which at the minimum is AE type 1 cuz you’ve said Ideas of things being the concepts is something the wiki changed
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I always thought I would gain conceptual level erasure
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Ok, but it was being suggested for everyone, and Goku and Vegeta don't even do that. They can simply interact with Zamasu.
That kind of erasure is a Zenō only thing.
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Bro, that wasn't even an interaction, Zamasu deflected all attacks, I don't think it's fair for Goku and company to climb into that.
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The attack actually hits Zamasu, it simply doesn't do anything to him.
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Ideas and will =/= concept in the context we're using it here.
He still keeps his Type 1 AE so that's a nothing burger anyway.
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you know that the thread is not removing AE right? the point is that there is no context or explanation that would grant it being conceptual existence
?
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^ my point. He can keep AE but description is needed to be changed. My very point since start is it's misleading description.
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Also a side note, but i always disagreed with SDBH Zamasu's feat not being High Godly. Regardless of this downgrade or not.
For Deonment's reasoning.
For Deonment's reasoning.
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I thought you were saying that Justice and order were vague in general and I was just mentioning that it’s referring to him becoming abstract from sources
Check the end of the first page
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What do you suggest?
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So pretty much this
His justification should definitely be changed if this passes, but his Regen should stay.
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He suggested nothing is changing but only explaination or description of his AE, he will still retain his all abilities.
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Alright, let's wait @Vietthai96
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But won't it be a concept anymore?
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