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Zamasu and his bad AE

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Gowasu: That is Zamasu's complex emotions made real

And at the same time, Zamasu gave off a large Ki aura, which also included his thoughts (in DBV there are cases where it is possible to read other people's minds just by sensing their Ki)
Emotions(feeling/desire/attention) Thoughts(sense/wish)
So to realize his ideal quickly, the only way is for him to become the ideal himself
This was not reffering to Infinite Zamasu for one. Second, being a living thought is not a conceptual embodiment, Antispiral is not a concept for example.

2. Personality of Zamasu
Zamasu throughout the series has always talked about his ideals, the ideals of justice and order, he rummaged through many different timelines just to prove his justice.

He is disgusted with the living universe of humans and will destroy it as stated in the manga, he is also disgusted with the existence of the living universe in the anime so he becomes the universe itself to destroy them
A similar motif is extended to his ideal, he succeeds in showing people hate and hatred, showing people his own emotions and thoughts. So in the end he will become those very ideas
That's just a very weak evidence. It can be argued as merely him overpowering everything too weak after merging with the universe.

The TOEI timeline says that his will engulfed the universe and the Blu Ray says that he became his own ideas.

Aka it means that he became his will to bring his idea of justice, and nothing else.
 
Zamasu easily made his emotions/thoughts into "real", so in the final form, it must also be something more abstract.
Putting aside the fact that being more abstract than emotions/thoughts doesn't make you conceptual existence, instead just AE type 1 of emotions/thoughts getting layered; why does his emotions/thoughts become real have anything to do with being more abstract in the first place?
 
This was not reffering to Infinite Zamasu for one. Second, being a living thought is not a conceptual embodiment, Antispiral is not a concept for example.
Yep, it doesn't refer to IZ but it concerns him
I don't say that, I'm just demonstrating that "idea" in the context is conceptual, because idea are not always concept, right?

That's just a very weak evidence. It can be argued as merely him overpowering everything too weak after merging with the universe.

The TOEI timeline says that his will engulfed the universe and the Blu Ray says that he became his own ideas.

Aka it means that he became his will to bring his idea of justice, and nothing else.
I don't quite understand your first point...can you explain more

The Kanji "念" doesn't mean will
In the first place, his ideals don't work, or show everyone his own emotions/thoughts with justice and order don't work, then he becomes will is useful What? It should be made clear that if he becomes the will, it won't change anything, it will only make the mortal people see more clearly that ideal, over there Zamasu wants to change and is about to achieve justice and order just like what he is doing during Saga
 
Putting aside the fact that being more abstract than emotions/thoughts doesn't make you conceptual existence, instead just AE type 1 of emotions/thoughts getting layered; why does his emotions/thoughts become real have anything to do with being more abstract in the first place?
it's true, being more abstract emotions/thoughts doesn't make you a conceptual entity but given the Blu-ray context and the exclusion method I think it works for IZ

But what I mean is that kanji "念" means emotions and thoughts and ideas, if in the first place he could have become feelings and thoughts but it didn't work for his ideal then why doesn't he become something efficient enough to fulfill his ideal, yes I mean he becomes literally justice and order
 
But what I mean is that kanji "念" means emotions and thoughts and ideas, if in the first place he could have become feelings and thoughts but it didn't work for his ideal then why doesn't he become something efficient enough to fulfill his ideal, yes I mean he becomes literally justice and order
Fair enough, that seems to at least disprove the point about him being a thought/emotion.
 
it's true, being more abstract emotions/thoughts doesn't make you a conceptual entity but given the Blu-ray context and the exclusion method I think it works for IZ

But what I mean is that kanji "念" means emotions and thoughts and ideas, if in the first place he could have become feelings and thoughts but it didn't work for his ideal then why doesn't he become something efficient enough to fulfill his ideal, yes I mean he becomes literally justice and order
He did became the most efficient thing there could to execute his ideals throughout the universe, and that is becoming the Universe and it's spacetime itself, he has now approach to every corner to every point in time to execute and spread his zero mortal ideal. So the point that he should become something efficient is moot as it doesn't contradict that he has became something efficient already. Coming to being concept will only work if he has became everyone sense of justice and all throughout the universe, which is not the case, not to mention it'll lead to him being conceptual being and zeno having conceptual manipulation when we don't grant it unless there is a explaination about the nature of concept a being is.
 
It is proof he’s said to try to become Justice and Order in the game and nearly the same scenario it’s mentioned again and Infinite Zamasu comes nearly later it’s obvious
It really isn't. What you think is obvious and what we're given aren't the same.
 
He did became the most efficient thing there could to execute his ideals throughout the universe, and that is becoming the Universe and it's spacetime itself, he has now approach to every corner to every point in time to execute and spread his zero mortal ideal. So the point that he should become something efficient is moot as it doesn't contradict that he has became something efficient already. Coming to being concept will only work if he has became everyone sense of justice and all throughout the universe, which is not the case, not to mention it'll lead to him being conceptual being and zeno having conceptual manipulation when we don't grant it unless there is a explaination about the nature of concept a being is.
Conceptual Manipulation is manipulating something. Zenō doesn't do that.

"But it'll lead to-" nothing, that's not an argument.

"You need the word" no, you don't. Refer to Lavos' CM for that.

He was trying to become the justice and order of the universe. That's stated.
 
He did became the most efficient thing there could to execute his ideals throughout the universe, and that is becoming the Universe and it's spacetime itself, he has now approach to every corner to every point in time to execute and spread his zero mortal ideal. So the point that he should become something efficient is moot as it doesn't contradict that he has became something efficient already. Coming to being concept will only work if he has became everyone sense of justice and all throughout the universe, which is not the case, not to mention it'll lead to him being conceptual being and zeno having conceptual manipulation when we don't grant it unless there is a explaination about the nature of concept a being is.
It is usually explained that something that happens in one line does not affect another, literally he can be the concept of order and justice there, as long as it is only from that Universe, but he was going to other timelines, in Xenoverse 2 this is explained about the concept of la justice
 
Conceptual Manipulation is manipulating something. Zenō doesn't do that.
It does as long as has destroyed Zamasu as per the arguements of the thread, a concept.


"But it'll lead to-" nothing, that's not an argument.
It is, the very point of the thread that Zamasu is a concept of justice and order of the universe will lead to him or others having conceptual manipulation which we don't grant in any case unless there is a explaination about nature of concept. and if it's not Type 1,2,3 concept as it lacks any kind of explaination, then mentioning or not mentioning concept is moot for either AE or conceptual manipulation.
 
It does as long as has destroyed Zamasu as per the arguements of the thread, a concept.

We even rejected it in the last thread, and you were there too.

is, the very point of the thread that Zamasu is a concept of justice and order of the universe will lead to him or others having conceptual manipulation which we don't grant in any case unless there is a explaination about nature of concept. and if it's not Type 1,2,3 concept as it lacks any kind of explaination, then mentioning or not mentioning concept is moot for either AE or conceptual manipulation.

No. Goku and co. would get NPI at best.

This has been common knowledge for a lot of time.
 
That's because Zamasu being concept was absurd and if zeno doesn't have conceptual manipulation, then the point of Zamasu being concept is done. Same for the 2nd point.
We don't give concept hax to people who can interact with concepts. Unless they can actually alter them.

Just NPI, so Goku and co. wouldn't have the former in any case.

Zenō being able to nuke IZ is pointed on his profile. So at best the only one who should have that is him.

"It's absurd"

Reiner, you're better than that.
 
We don't give concept hax to people who can interact with concepts. Just NPI, so Goku and co. wouldn't have the former in any case.

Zenō being able to nuke IZ is pointed on his profile.
We give it those who has resisted it tho. IZ being concept of justice and order would affect everyone sense of judgement unless they have resistance to it. He has became concept itself and so everything is he. Also the point of we discussing it has no justification as nature of this ideal, will or whatever (depends on the kanji) is unexplained to grant anything whatsoever.
Zenō being able to nuke IZ is pointed on his profile
It's a conceptual manipulation if Zamasu is concept.
 
Also to make it clear, I am not suggesting to nuke his AE but only change the description of it mentioned in the profile from being concept, as it's misleading if those one resisted or destroyed it doesn't have conceptual manipulation, also, it is unexplained to grant it and misleading. Just replace it with something else.
 
Also to make it clear, I am not suggesting to nuke his AE but only change the description of it mentioned in the profile from being concept, as it's misleading if those one resisted or destroyed it doesn't have conceptual manipulation, also, it is unexplained to grant it and misleading. Just replace it with something else.
I think I agree with Reiner
 
Ok, but it was being suggested for everyone, and Goku and Vegeta don't even do that. They can simply interact with Zamasu.

That kind of erasure is a Zenō thing.
Bro, that wasn't even an interaction, Zamasu deflected all attacks, I don't think it's fair for Goku and company to climb into that.
 
Because it’s stated he would become ideas and will from the various sources along with that it’s not just that statement which at the minimum is AE type 1 cuz you’ve said Ideas of things being the concepts is something the wiki changed
Ideas and will =/= concept in the context we're using it here.

He still keeps his Type 1 AE so that's a nothing burger anyway.
 
Because it’s stated he would become ideas and will from the various sources along with that it’s not just that statement which at the minimum is AE type 1
you know that the thread is not removing AE right? the point is that there is no context or explanation that would grant it being conceptual existence

cuz you’ve said Ideas of things being the concepts is something the wiki changed
?
 
Ideas and will =/= concept in the context we're using it here.

He still keeps his Type 1 AE so that's a nothing burger anyway.
^ my point. He can keep AE but description is needed to be changed. My very point since start is it's misleading description.
 
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