Yu-Gi-Oh GX the 12 dimensions

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wut?? A dimension rotating around a planet like a moon?? Did I interpret this correct??
That could be problematic potentially but....it could just be outer appearance is "less" then the actual inner size.

Thats exactly the interpretation, yes. Neo Space, or at the absolute least a part of it, rotates around Jupiter. And we see this being the case as well.

That not only puts Neo-Space's size into big questioning, but it also puts the idea of it even being a timeline in the first place into question as well. Unless a reality can "orbit" around physical objects all of a sudden.

That was never my intent or implications, my point was visuals don't limit anything, thats it.
If visuals are the best evidence for something then its best you can use for size.

Of course, I never disagreed with that either. But my point was that if we go by visuals, then whats shown becomes the details you can use, and you can't really go further than that without some evidence to prove it.

But here its called universe, extra evidence for size. Which shouldn't be limited by visuals alone.

Yes and that "universe" title for these worlds gets put into question by the said size of the worlds, where at least 1 or 2 of them are absolutely not meeting the standard of being universe sized. Or even an actual reality.

What makes it even worse is that some of these worlds are never shown, so you have to rely on the use of the ones that were shown, and when some of them don't need the standard, it makes things more problematic and speculative.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We got things as DDLC where the verse is literally just a bunch of files which toghether make like, a 4-A Sized room at 1st glance, and yet is still called universe and is accepted as Low 2-C. Undertale same, the gameworld is like shown with just a planet and sun yet the structure is accepted as Low 2-C as well due of it being called a timeline. I don't see how that doesen't apply here as well, unless you wan't to downgrade these verses at 4-A at best each.

Maybe downgrade them then? Whataboutism isn't an argument.

Though I will say, from just based off of what you said right here, they are a different situation than what Yu-Gi-Oh's dealing with. Being 4-A sized, which typical displays stars and nebulae, AND being called a universe is one thing. When you lack those things despite being called a universe, thats not the same case.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What makes it even worse is that some of these worlds are never shown, so you have to rely on the use of the ones that were shown, and when some of them don't need the standard, it makes things more problematic and speculative.

High 4-C Undertale confirmed

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’d need to rewatch the stuff for Neos Space but how is the desert an issue? Is it just because we only see the school in a desert? With that logic, we would have to ignore the fact that the main universe is called exactly that and say it’s multi solar to solar system in size since we only see our system and starry night skies iirc.

By main universe, you mean Jaden's? As in the normal everyday universe thats quite obviously based off of our own?

Thats a strong false equivalency.

 

[deonment]

Unless a reality can "orbit" around physical objects all of a sudden.

Some works of fiction can have literal higher dimensions circling around planets, your point?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Though I will say, from just based off of what you said right here, they are a different situation than what Yu-Gi-Oh's dealing with. Being 4-A sized, which typical displays stars and nebulae, AND being called a universe is one thing. When you lack those things despite being called a universe, thats not the same case.

?????

You just said "showing just X and yet being called an universe is a thing, but if you lack Y despite being called such is not"

My man, your argument is based on "we should just base on what we see, and see if they contradict what is stated", then you conceded on Undertale and DDLC being Low 2-C despite the cosmology is shown as Tier 4 at best via visuals due of them being called universes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Some works of fiction can have literal higher dimensions circling around planets, your point?

Now that I think with this logic DBS Universes shouldn't be Low 2-C due of them being shown as just a sphere, a thing that can't represent a Low 2-C sized structure now that I think.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That not only puts Neo-Space's size into big questioning, but it also puts the idea of it even being a timeline in the first place into question as well. Unless a reality can "orbit" around physical objects all of a sudden.

Maybe it could be a case like Mechikabura, he has 2A multiverse inside himself. And he doesn't even have 4D HDE.
Outer appearance can be 3D and trivial while inside sizes are masssive and cosmic.

Yes and that "universe" title for these worlds gets put into question by the said size of the worlds, where at least 1 or 2 of them are absolutely not meeting the standard of being universe sized. Or even an actual reality.

What makes it even worse is that some of these worlds are never shown, so you have to rely on the use of the ones that were shown, and when some of them don't need the standard, it makes things more problematic and speculative.

I'd atleast give them benifit of the doubt.
If they are really called universes even in jap raws then there must be a strong reason behind it.
Maybe we wait for those.
But meanwhile I still support 2C, maybe "possibly", "likely" could work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, things are like this:

• Accept these universes being Low 2-C each
• Downgrade Undertale and DDLC at Tier 4 due of them showing just a tier 4 sized structure at best, which contradicts them being called universes

One of these, you can't choose a 3rd option here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So, things are like this:

• Accept these universes being Low 2-C each
• Downgrade Undertale and DDLC at Tier 4 due of them showing just a tier 4 sized structure at best, which contradicts them being called universes

One of these, you can't choose a 3rd option here.

I wouldn't go so extreme.
Other verses shouldn't suffer for something that is evaluated as contrary here.
I'd rather get this verse 2C as a better alternative.
Its a matter of principle now...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Some works of fiction can have literal higher dimensions circling around planets, your point?

Mind giving examples of this? Cause real truth, I've never once heard of that being a thing. Ever. And I highly doubt this site has any series like that either unless you know a verse that does this.

?????

You just said "showing just X and yet being called an universe is a thing, but if you lack Y despite being called such is not"

Yes because the former is most definitely much more easier to accept than the latter? A reality having countless stars and nebulae and being called a universe on top of that

Is far easier to believe being a universe

Than a reality that doesn't have any of that.

My man, your argument is based on "we should just base on what we see, and see if they contradict what is stated", then you conceded on Undertale and DDLC being Low 2-C despite the cosmology is shown as Tier 4 at best via visuals due of them being called universes.

See above. But like I said, I don't know those verses and bringing up other verses to try discrediting my argument is not how this works, as your only putting those series into question as well. So I don't particularly care if they are downgraded or not.

Maybe it could be a case like Mechikabura, he has 2A multiverse inside himself. And he doesn't even have 4D HDE.
Outer appearance can be 3D and trivial while inside sizes are masssive and cosmic.

Key word: Could.

Nothing like that is ever remotely hinted at being the case for the GX dimensions, and that is a very different situation. Mechi's 2-A multiverse isn't to scale wit his physical self. In this case, Neo-Space, which is supposedly supposed to be its own separate universal timeline, literally has part of itself orbiting something that isn't a timeline. You can't have a separate space-time as "part" of another, it's either its separate or its not.

And on top of that, the evidence for Neo Space being a universe is because its called a universe, and here, we have something that directly contradicts that. So you need another piece of evidence to support the former.

I'd atleast give them benifit of the doubt.
If they are really called universes even in jap raws then there must be a strong reason behind it.
Maybe we wait for those.

Then again, someone should supply them if the raws are accessible. But this is missing the main point.

It doesn't matter if they are called universes when inconsistencies go against the idea that they are universes. On top of a lack of good evidence that proves they are in the first place.

 

[deonment]

Mind giving examples of this? Cause real truth, I've never once heard of that being a thing. Ever. And I highly doubt this site has any series like that either unless you know a verse that does this.

world of darkness with this and this

 

[StrymULTRA]

All of this can just be finished with just a question:

Where does it explicitely say that it's limited to just that?

See above. But like I said, I don't know those verses and bringing up other verses to try discrediting my argument is not how this works, as your only putting those series into question as well. So I don't particularly care if they are downgraded or not.

Issue here is on this very wiki, just showing stars here alone isn't proof of even Tier 3, due of how massive is the difference between distance between Earth and the Sun and the diameter of the universe, so we can't assume that some stars = 3-A.

Same logic can be applied here, like these dimensions showing just a planet = 5-A at best, these verses are Tier 4 at best as well. Don't try to say "but is more credible with stars/nebulaes", because we don't make Symphogear verse or Sephiroth 3-A because of the pocket dimensions showing 1/2 galaxies. Ergo, showing stars isn't usable as a supportive thing, they're Low 2-C because they're called universes and ARE universes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All of this can just be finished with just a question:

Where does it explicitely say that it's limited to just that?

Burden of proof. You need to prove that its larger than whats shown. Especially for dimensions that have no evidence or basis of being cosmic in size.

Issue here is on this very wiki, just showing stars here alone isn't proof of even Tier 3, due of how massive is the difference between distance between Earth and the Sun and the diameter of the universe, so we can't assume that some stars = 3-A.

Thats only if the world isn't called a universe or anything on top of having those stars. Hence, why I said that if you have a realm with many stars, AND its called a universe, you could try spinning it as a 3-A or Low 2-C world.

But having just 1 or the other isn't going to do that.

Same logic can be applied here, like these dimensions showing just a planet = 5-A at best, these verses are Tier 4 at best as well. Don't try to say "but is more credible with stars/nebulaes", because we don't make Symphogear verse or Sephiroth 3-A because of the pocket dimensions showing 1/2 galaxies. Ergo, showing stars isn't usable as a supportive thing, they're Low 2-C because they're called universes and ARE universes.

Again, stop bringing up other verses as an argument, as your just going to cause them to be downgraded as well.

The simple answer is that a "title" for a dimension thats extremely small, and is shown as such, isn't going to be enough. And if it means other verses who do the same thing need to be looked at again, so be it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

world of darkness with this and this

And what verse is this for? Because I can already form an argument for this not being literal.

 

[deonment]

And what verse is this for? Because I can already form an argument for this not being literal.

World of Darkness, and yes it is very literal

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Letme summarise what I undertand Kukui.

You think that realm being called universe isn't a problem, its a good piece of evidence for low2C/3A.

But that the realm as it appears from outside in its totality is smaller than planet, rather then what the realm itself contains.

So its more of a anti feat problem then a "called a universe" as a evidence problem.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

World of Darkness, and yes it is very literal

Okie. Thread in question to be made for this then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Burden of proof. You need to prove that its larger than whats shown. Especially for dimensions that have no evidence or basis of being cosmic in size.

Them called universes is already an evidence.

Thats only if the world isn't called a universe or anything on top of having those stars. Hence, why I said that if you have a realm with many stars, AND its called a universe, you could try spinning it as a 3-A or Low 2-C world.

YGO is the same, so? Double standards over here as I can see.

Again, stop bringing up other verses as an argument, as your just going to cause them to be downgraded as well.

You're talking like there weren't already tons of threads on the subject and there are even notes on the profiles on the matter.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Letme summarise what I undertand Kukui.

You think that realm being called universe isn't a problem, its a good piece of evidence for low2C/3A.

But that the realm as it appears from outside in its totality is smaller than planet, rather then what the realm itself contains.

So its more of a anti feat problem then a "called a universe" as a evidence problem.

Considering I said this whole thread that these dimensions here have anti-feat evidence against the argument that they're universes, yes this is what I meant.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Them called universes is already an evidence.

And we have counter-evidence. So, you need more evidence beyond what they're called as.

YGO is the same, so? Double standards over here as I can see.

But it isn't the same?

You're talking like there weren't already tons of threads on the subject and there are even notes on the profiles on the matter.

Ah so notes that give context and further differentiate its case than what is the case here. As I initially thought.

 

[deonment]

Considering I said this whole thread that these dimensions here have anti-feat evidence against the argument that they're universes, yes this is what I meant.

could you remind me of these

 

[Zencha9]

Quantum theory doesn't actually mention the size of the universes have to be the same as ours, even if we ignore that these dimensions aren't actually parallel timelines (Neither a sperate timeline or parallel as shown by Neo Space).

Even before the downgrade, Super Poly was only through Preparation anyways, and would only scale that way to Yubel.

Neo space is a spirit world but it's inside the original universe where the light of destruction resides
Somehow i forgot this but yeah neo space isn't a part of the 12 dimensions

 

[Zencha9]

Do we have Raw Japanese scans that can be translated by Japanese reading viewers?

All the scans above mention uchu if necessary i'll request it in the translation thread if necessary

 

[StrymULTRA]

And we have counter-evidence. So, you need more evidence beyond what they're called as.

Counter evidence which is just "but it shows just this much and you have to prove that is bigger" when the proof is already in them being called universes.

Ah so notes that give context and further differentiate its case than what is the case here. As I initially thought.

You got it pretty wrong. Despite it was shown that the game, without Monika's messing up the reality, contains just stars, it's still accepted at Low 2-C because of it being called an universe. Even here, the dimensions shown just a planet, and yet they're called universes. Same case, same context.

Also I'd like to get scans because I'm kinda tired of seeing just words but not proofs.

 

[Zencha9]

First of all why is neo space is considered an anti feat?
1- It isn't part of the 12 dimensions
2- the desert dimension has 3 stars orbiting it it's clearly not just a desert
Bring up other arguments

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Considering I said this whole thread that these dimensions here have anti-feat evidence against the argument that they're universes, yes this is what I meant.

The way I'd proceed from here is look at how different jap words are used in different contexts.
Like when is "pocket reality", "dimension", "universe", "space", "world" used.
Also which characters use it and are they considered truthful.

Because as I see it, if a Character A whose word is considered sacrosanct in the verse is inside the realm and calls it universe, and there is a character B who is outside the realm and sees it as a construct smaller then a planet.
Then the anti-feat arguements loses its legitimacy.
It will become a clear cut case of 3D on the outside but 4D on the inside.

Both those veiwpoints don't have to contradict each other. They can go hand and gloves.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Counter evidence which is just "but it shows just this much and you have to prove that is bigger" when the proof is already in them being called universes.

Don't be disintellectually dishonest as it isn't just size. Its the fact that part of this "dimension" orbiting a planet is a damning knock against it being that big, or even being a reality in and of itself.

A universal title doesn't negate that.

You got it pretty wrong. Despite it was shown that the game, without Monika's messing up the reality, contains just stars, it's still accepted at Low 2-C because of it being called an universe. Even here, the dimensions shown just a planet, and yet they're called universes. Same case, same context.

Note: Contrary to popular belief, the fictionality of the DDLC world doesn't make it only as big as it normally showed to be (akin to a theater only having the locations it showed to the audience but not more than what's shown, and with the things shown being fake), it has been referenced a few times that the DDLC characters exist in a universe/reality, this one showed to have space with dozens of stars in it and its own flow of time, things unrelated to the fake stage play-like dynamic the game was supposed to provide without Monika's interventions. The space with stars in it and the flow of time are shown and referenced in-game, but not as something that was meant to be explored in regular circumstances in the game as a date simulator, thus implying that there is no reason for the reality in DDLC has to be lesser than a normal universe (the fake aspects of it come from how the beings in it were programed and how events and things were constructed to organize a date simulator, without the reality in which everything is in being lesser for it)

Not at all the same context as this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

First of all why is neo space is considered an anti feat?
1- It isn't part of the 12 dimensions
2- the desert dimension has 3 stars orbiting it it's clearly not just a desert
Bring up other arguments

Then it certainly helps the case a lot.
The """anti feats"" will be separated and will not be able to negatively affect other dimensions size and composition scaling.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Don't be disintellectually dishonest as it isn't just size. Its the fact that part of this "dimension" orbiting a planet is a damning knock against it being that big, or even being a reality in and of itself.

A universal title doesn't negate that.

This is going on circles, I want to be clear here. Scans about it?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First of all why is neo space is considered an anti feat?
1- It isn't part of the 12 dimensions

Not according to this page, which says it is one of the said dimensions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is going on circles, I want to be clear here. Scans about it?

Go to my first comment on here, the yugioh wikia outright shows the scan.

 

[Zencha9]

Not according to this page, which says it is one of the said dimensions.

It says it's one of the first dimensions introduced not that it's a part of the 12 dimensions that doesn't even make sense in story
Also should i really remind everyone why using the wiki is bad?

 

[SomebodyData]

Here is the scan on the wiki btw

The entire 'bigger on the inside' doesn't really apply when you can see Jupiter is still bigger from the inside.

 

[Zencha9]

Again neo space isn't part of the 12 dimensions
Use another argument

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It says it's one of the first dimensions introduced not that it's a part of the 12 dimensions that doesn't even make sense in story
Also should i really remind everyone why using the wiki is bad?

Go to the GX section of the page, please. It says, in quotes:

"Neo Space is introduced as one of the dimensions early in the second season. Jaden travels there and finds that it is under siege from an extradimensional entity known as the Light of Destruction, which does not appear to hail from any of the Duel Spirit Dimensions and seeks to dominate them."

Sounds like its one of the 12 to me. If not, SomebodyData has some explaining to do here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Go to my first comment on here, the yugioh wikia outright shows the scan.

Am I wrong or am I seeing some stars on the top right of the planet?

 

[SomebodyData]

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if you know this but attempting to alter another wiki before attempting a revision here is bannable, Zencha.

Also, just using the dub names for things isn't something that bunks their reliability when they acknowledge its for recognizability. 4Kids kinda forced that, like how most people recognize Joey Wheeler as Joey Wheeler instead of his Japanese name.

 

[SomebodyData]

Am I wrong or am I seeing some stars on the top right of the planet?

That planet being Jupiter...

 

[StrymULTRA]

That planet being Jupiter...

Ok, but I see some white dots at the right of it. They're assumed to be stars according to wiki standards.