12-D A Certain Magical Index

[XDragnoir]

Even though the pure world governed by physical laws and all religious mythological phases were destroyed, the Hidden Phase remained intact.

There's a quote that heavily implies that the Black World that Othinus created after removing the Phases is the Pure World, so I disagree with this.

This alone indicates that the Hidden Phase is superior to the phases mentioned above.
Additionally, dimensions are merely a form of physical law.

It doesn't indicate superiority at all, it only means Othinus didn't know about it and it isn't even known if she could have destroyed it or not if she was aware about its existence

For that matter, we don't even know if the True Gremlin can destroy it themselves, the Hidden Phase is meant to be a place that is already at the "value of 0", it's not really possible to make it less than it already is, in terms of nature/substance.

Again, the Hidden Phase isn't some kind of superior, transcendent place, it's just a void that's special because it's a void, if it was superior to the Phases I doubt it would be called a Phase to begin with.

The dimensions mentioned in Toaru refer only to the dimensional theory from Euclidean geometry, which is a part of physical laws.

Sure? What does that have to do with what we were discussing exactly?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

You're missing the point, it being part part of the "physical universe" has no bearing on what it means for the stuff that exists outside of the physical universe, you're assuming Phases are inherently superior to dimensions, but first you have to prove that.

I'll try to prove this first, but first, lunch, I'll be back.

 

[Piamma]

There's a quote that heavily implies that the Black World that Othinus created after removing the Phases is the Pure World, so I disagree with this

"The Black World essentially refers to a space where all religious, mythological phases, and the pure world governed by physical laws have been destroyed, leaving nothing.
Is the part you're unable to agree with the idea that Othinus destroyed the pure world (i.e., the world governed by physical laws)?
Which part do you disagree with?
From an omniscient narrator's perspective, it is clearly stated that the only phase that wasn’t destroyed is the Hidden Phase, and we already know that the pure world governed by physical laws and all religious and mythological phases are considered phases.

 

[korea1234]

You're missing the point, it being part part of the "physical universe" has no bearing on what it means for the stuff that exists outside of the physical universe, you're assuming Phases are inherently superior to dimensions, but first you have to prove that.


Gabriel doesn't prove that because again, his statements weren't in relation to the whole universe and much less to higher dimensions.


Or you could provide the quotes you think would prove it as being somehow more complex than the dimensions (when it doesn't have dimensions to begin with as was explicitly stated)

Magic gods must be infinitely weakened, or the world will be destroyed. Couldn't this argument be a basis for claiming that an infinitely unweakened magic god is 12 dimensional?

 

[XDragnoir]

"Another characteristic of the Hidden Phase:


In the Hidden Phase, the concepts of time and space are meaningless.
It's a place where a gap as small as a strand of hair can expand infinitely.

Time and space are also forms of physical laws.
My argument was that the Hidden Phase transcends the world of physical laws.

Given how the Pure World is frequently regarded as the most special of the Phases (which is the actual world of physical laws), the Hidden Phase transcending it in the sense you're implying doesn't make sense IMO.

In addition to the above statements, it's confirmed that time and space, which are physical laws, become meaningless here.
How can that not be considered transcendence?"

What does that have to do with transcendence? It's a void without space or time, simply as that.

The meaning of the Kanji used to describe the Hidden Phase that you brought up before weren't even "superior, higher hierarchically" or something like that anyway, so what? The only place the word transcendence is used is that summary, was it even written by Kamachi? Is it brought up anywhere inside the novels?

 

[XDragnoir]

"The Black World essentially refers to a space where all religious, mythological phases, and the pure world governed by physical laws have been destroyed, leaving nothing.
Is the part you're unable to agree with the idea that Othinus destroyed the pure world (i.e., the world governed by physical laws)?
Which part do you disagree with?
From an omniscient narrator's perspective, it is clearly stated that the only phase that wasn’t destroyed is the Hidden Phase, and we already know that the pure world governed by physical laws and all religious and mythological phases are considered phases.

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters…that is, the world of science that is unaffected by religion. …Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.” Kamijou could not guess how much value this had. If Index saw it, she might have felt differently.

It's pretty explicitly stated that the point they're at is the Pure World, not that the Black World destroyed even the Pure World.

 

[korea1234]

What does that have to do with transcendence? It's a void without space or time, simply as that.

The meaning of the Kanji used to describe the Hidden Phase that you brought up before weren't even "superior, higher hierarchically" or something like that anyway, so what? The only place the word transcendence is used is that summary, was it even written by Kamachi? Is it brought up anywhere inside the novels?

I'm wondering why you don't acknowledge the word “transcend” in the summary, since it was written by a writer as well.

 

[Piamma]

It doesn't indicate superiority at all, it only means Othinus didn't know about it and it isn't even known if she could have destroyed it or not if she was aware about its existence

For that matter, we don't even know if the True Gremlin can destroy it themselves, the Hidden Phase is meant to be a place that is already at the "value of 0", it's not really possible to make it less than it already is, in terms of nature/substance.

Again, the Hidden Phase isn't some kind of superior, transcendent place, it's just a void that's special because it's a void, if it was superior to the Phases I doubt it would be called a Phase to begin with.

"Since when has the pure world been anything special? It’s just the foundation. Even in the Sephiroth, the world governed by pure physical laws is represented as the lowest layer.

Who else would write the summary besides the author? Not only the summary but also the main text of NT volume 10 explains this, yet you're the claiming it's not transcendence."

 

[korea1234]

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters…that is, the world of science that is unaffected by religion. …Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.” Kamijou could not guess how much value this had. If Index saw it, she might have felt differently.

It's pretty explicitly stated that the point they're at is the Pure World, not that the Black World destroyed even the Pure World.

Can you tell me which book you're talking about? You can also check the original text.

 

[XDragnoir]

Magic gods must be infinitely weakened, or the world will be destroyed. Couldn't this argument be a basis for claiming that an infinitely unweakened magic god is 12 dimensional?

Nope, that doesn't work for 12D.

 

[XDragnoir]

"Since when has the pure world been anything special? It’s just the foundation. Even in the Sephiroth, the world governed by pure physical laws is represented as the lowest layer.

It being the foundation is what makes it special to begin with, like, it's not just the lowest for the sake of being inferior, it's the lowest because it keeps all the other ones existing, that's very special, you can destroy any individual Phase and 0 shit happens to the others, but destroying the Pure World (like what Coronzon intended) destroys absolutely every alongside it.

And well, that's because there's not really a hierarchy between different Phases, it isn't something like Heaven > Asgard > Olympus > Hell or something like that, the only one with a special role is the Pure World (the foundation) and the only one with a unique nature is the Hidden Phase (being a void), I wouldn't say any of them has any basis to, for some reason, be 12D (which seems to be what everyone wants) since the relationship between Phases and Dimensions simply seems to barely exist.

Who else would write the summary besides the author? Not only the summary but also the main text of NT volume 10 explains this, yet you're the claiming it's not transcendence."

The editors? It doesn't really matter, actually

You have to prove it's transcendence, all you've given so far is honestly really lacking, it's just not a sounding argument.

 

[Piamma]

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters…that is, the world of science that is unaffected by religion. …Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.” Kamijou could not guess how much value this had. If Index saw it, she might have felt differently.

It's pretty explicitly stated that the point they're at is the Pure World, not that the Black World destroyed even the Pure World.

"'The man called the 'Silver Star' seemed to have tried to grasp a 'new world' that was formed beyond countless filters… a world of science independent from religion. …Really, meeting you at a time like this, I feel truly fortunate. Even Europe's 'golden' dream in Tibet couldn’t reach this far.'
Kamijou doesn’t understand the true value of 'this.'
If Index saw 'this,' she might have a different impression.

This simply explains that Aleister is attempting to remove all religious and mythological phases, leaving only the pure world.

If, as you say, the Black World is the pure world governed by physical laws that Aleister is aiming for, then are you saying Aleister’s goal is a space where even the universe disappears, leaving absolutely nothing?

'I will wash away the fake scenery filled with layers of phases and filters. Aleister Crowley has already experienced failure many times. Thus, even being cornered wouldn’t change his stance.

I will eradicate all the phases and fix this world where people are unknowingly being manipulated. It won’t stop with Lilith’s death. A world where that level of tragedy is simply dismissed as unavoidable—I will remake that world completely. For that, I will… for that, I…'

This passage speaks about Aleister’s goal.

How, in any way, is the Black World the pure world he’s aiming for?"

 

[XDragnoir]

Can you tell me which book you're talking about? You can also check the original text.

NT9, between the lines

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Nope, that doesn't work for 12D.

why not? Here's the thing:

you know what's the difference between a 3D infinite multiverse and a higher dimensional multiverse? The difference is the 3D one is just an infinite universe and the higher dimensional one is a proper multiverse that can contain multiple infinite universes.

Now, it doesn't work like that on the scope of 11D, we just can't have the property of a 3D multiverse apply it to an 11D one, there are no kind of "infinite 11D worlds existing on the same level of dimensionality", because that just can't happen, so why isn't this transcendence instead? Because the Magic gods had to divide their power to infinity to be contained in said 11D world, they have to be at least 12D or it wouldn't make sense, why can't infinity holds infinity, why did one infinity crushes the other?

 

[korea1234]

why not? Here's the thing:

you know what's the difference between a 3D infinite multiverse and a higher dimensional multiverse? The difference is the 3D one is just an infinite universe and the higher dimensional one is a proper multiverse that can contain multiple infinite universes.

Now, it doesn't work like that on the scope of 11D, we just can't have the property of a 3D multiverse apply it to an 11D one, there are no kind of "infinite 11D worlds existing on the same level of dimensionality", because that just can't happen, so why isn't this transcendence instead? Because the Magic gods had to divide their power to infinity to be contained in said 11D world, they have to be at least 12D or it wouldn't make sense, why can't infinity holds infinity, why did one infinity crushes the other?

I agree. A higher dimension is a structure that contains an infinite number of lower dimensions.

 

[XDragnoir]

"'The man called the 'Silver Star' seemed to have tried to grasp a 'new world' that was formed beyond countless filters… a world of science independent from religion. …Really, meeting you at a time like this, I feel truly fortunate. Even Europe's 'golden' dream in Tibet couldn’t reach this far.'
Kamijou doesn’t understand the true value of 'this.'
If Index saw 'this,' she might have a different impression.

Do you have the original text? I'd like to check the translation by myself.

This simply explains that Aleister is attempting to remove all religious and mythological phases, leaving only the pure world.

I am well aware of that.

If, as you say, the Black World is the pure world governed by physical laws that Aleister is aiming for, then are you saying Aleister’s goal is a space where even the universe disappears, leaving absolutely nothing?

Don't put words in my mouth, I never claimed that, the most I said is that Othinus implied the Black World and the Pure World were the same.

How, in any way, is the Black World the pure world he’s aiming for?"

It's not MY fault if the translation I had access wasn't accurate and I definitely don't care enough to go check the original of every single quote I come across, but again, don't put words in my mouth, I NEVER claimed this was his goal or what Aleister was aiming for, I didn't even use his name a single time in this topic.

 

[Piamma]

It's not MY fault if the translation I had access wasn't accurate and I definitely don't care enough to go check the original of every single quote I come across, but again, don't put words in my mouth, I NEVER claimed this was his goal or what Aleister was aiming for, I didn't even use his name a single time in this topic.

Since his goal is to leave only the pure world, the two cannot be viewed separately.



here

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I agree. A higher dimension is a structure that contains an infinite number of lower dimensions.

I remember that they even said it's "barely", meaning that any higher would be fatal for the world, so yeah, 1/infinite is literally the exact limit of that said 11D world.

 

[XDragnoir]

you know what's the difference between a 3D infinite multiverse and a higher dimensional multiverse? The difference is the 3D one is just an infinite universe and the higher dimensional one is a proper multiverse that can contain multiple infinite universes.

What? What even is a 3D multiverse? Multiverses are 4D.

An "infinite universe" isn't the same as an "infinite multiverse", I have no idea what you were trying to say.

Now, it doesn't work like that on the scope of 11D, we just can't have the property of a 3D multiverse apply it to an 11D one, there are no kind of "infinite 11D worlds existing on the same level of dimensionality", because that just can't happen, so why isn't this transcendence instead? Because the Magic gods had to divide their power to infinity to be contained in said 11D world, they have to be at least 12D or it wouldn't make sense, why can't infinity holds infinity, why did one infinity crushes the other?

First, Toaru doesn't have infinite worlds to begin with, it has a single world.

Second, it doesn't have infinite 11D worlds as the 1st point says, but wtf "because that just can't happen"? That's not even an argument, where did you get this from?

Third, at most that means the Toaru world isn't infinite because it can't contain their infinite (11D) power, destroying something 11D isn't proof that you're 12D, that's not how this works.

Also, this is fiction, infinities defeating infinities is completely normal.

 

[korea1234]

First, Toaru doesn't have infinite worlds to begin with, it has a single world.

Spoiler: Toaru GT10

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

 

[Piamma]

First, Toaru doesn't have infinite worlds to begin with, it has a single world.

"One world refers to the Toaruverse itself, which includes the world governed by pure physical laws and all the phases of religious and mythological beliefs.
It’s not referring to just a single universe."

 

[korea1234]

Are higher-dimensional beings infinitely larger than lower-dimensional equivalents?​

In a way, yes, though not how most would think when using this word. Basically, an arbitrary object of dimension n is essentially comprised by the total sum of uncountably infinite objects of one dimension less, which may be described as lower-dimensional "slices", each corresponding to one of the infinite points of a line. For instance, a square is made of infinitely many line segments (Lined up on the y-axis), a cube of infinitely many squares (Lined up on the z-axis), and so on.

According to the Tiering System FAQ, for example, For instance, a square is made of infinitely many line segments (Lined up on the y-axis), a cube of infinitely many squares (Lined up on the z-axis), and so on.


And, in NT12, there is this sentence.

Spoiler: Toaru NT 12

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What? What even is a 3D multiverse? Multiverses are 4D.

An "infinite universe" isn't the same as an "infinite multiverse", I have no idea what you were trying to say.


First, Toaru doesn't have infinite worlds to begin with, it has a single world.

Second, it doesn't have infinite 11D worlds as the 1st point says, but wtf "because that just can't happen"? That's not even an argument, where did you get this from?

Third, at most that means the Toaru world isn't infinite because it can't contain their infinite (11D) power, destroying something 11D isn't proof that you're 12D, that's not how this works.

Also, this is fiction, infinities defeating infinities is completely normal.

Firstly, you did not get my points, AT ALL. So follow my logic here, closely, okay?

A 3D multiverse is a multiverse consists of many non-infinite universes, it's that simple, and if it's infinite, it's essentially just an infinite universe (they both have a 3D structure, understand?)

Now we go straight to 11D. The point here is NOT THAT TOARU HAS INFINITE WORLDS, I DIDN'T SAY THAT, the point is that Magic Gods's power are INFINITE compare to the Physical universe, WHICH IS 11D (you agreed on this point about the physical universe, IT IS 11D).

BUT on this scope, 11D I mean, we can't have something like the 3D one, like "infinite 3D structures in an infinite 3D dimension", AND LET ALONE THAT INFINITY CRUSED IT, IT CRUSHED THE INFINITY BEING 11D, does that even make sense anymore if the INFINITY that crushed said world isn't transcendent to said world? Here's the thing, if it's 3D instead, it'd be like "oh the Magic God had infinite power so they deletes all matters -> Which is the world in this case. BUT IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT ON THIS SCOPE OF 11D, AT LEAST THE CONTEXT COULDN'T HAVE MEANT SO. Like again, the matter universe is 3D, and because of that, the act of "crushing" it meant something for said world. But if it's 11D instead, then ask yourself, what does "crushing" meant here, especially when it was stated that they are literally a cactus on top of the balloon called "world" that could accidentally crushed it?

The "crushing" here literally meant the total destruction of reality itself, not just a matter of matters (pun intended), BUT REALITY ITSELF. If so, for one infinity to crush the other infinity, the said infinity HAVE TO BE TRANSCENDENCE IN COMPARISON TO THE INFERIOR ONE.

SO MY POINT IS THAT, IF THE MAGIC GOD HAD TO NERF THEMSELVES "INFINITELY" TO "BARELY EXISTS IN THE WORLD", IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE TO TRANSCEND THAT SAID WORLD.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

This, THIS ONE SUGGEST THAT IT'S NOT A "TOO MUCH KI GOKU YOU'RE GONNA BLOW THE UNIVERSE UP", BUT literally "a higher dimensional being trying to descend to a lower realm, moved it's body and cause an error, blows said realm up in the process

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

In a lower-dimensional world (like 3D), destroying matter or "crushing" the world would simply mean overpowering its material components. But in an 11D world, where dimensions beyond space and time are involved, to crush it implies a total destruction of reality itself. Yeah, needed to make my point short and clear.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

@Piamma could you get me a raw scans of the statement about Gabriel, stated that "the universe doesn't have enough material to support it's existence" in WW3? When it's going to blow the North pole up by gathering power.

 

[XDragnoir]

"One world refers to the Toaruverse itself, which includes the world governed by pure physical laws and all the phases of religious and mythological beliefs.
It’s not referring to just a single universe."

As Nephthys and others said, there aren't parallel universes in Toaru, Phases and pther structures aren't parallel universes.

Spoiler: Toaru GT10

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

That's talking about their conflict, she created them one at a time, not simultaneously.

Like, I had this debate countless times in Spacebattle, I don't plan to waste more time discussing this here, did y'all not read NT9? C'mon now.

And, in NT12, there is this sentence.

The FAQ is talking about dimensions, the MGs aren't, so that's by itself a wrong comparison, they only split their power so they have nothing to do with each other.

Not only that, you're ignoring that an infinite sized cube is still 3D and that a finite segment of it can be taken out and still be 3D, indeed, that's what the MGs did, like, you're just ignoring the fact that the cube is made of squares in the Z-axis, it's not a simple matter of stacking squares to get a cube, you need a whole new axis of movement.

 

[Piamma]

As Nephthys and others said, there aren't parallel universes in Toaru, Phases and pther structures aren't parallel universes.

That's not the case.

I feel like I’ve brought up this origin jap text before, haven’t I?

I don't understand why this part keeps getting translated incorrectly.

'... Impossible. It can't be possible. Because parallel worlds──'

'Yeah, it’s like tying a rubber band to a fixed pinball machine, but in the end, it's a straight line. There aren't infinite parallel worlds.'

The statement about parallel worlds is not 'they don’t exist,' but rather 'there aren't infinite parallel worlds.'

If the idea were that parallel worlds don't exist, Kamisato’s line would be 'Yeah, you're right. Parallel worlds don’t exist,' not 'There aren't infinite parallel worlds.'"

 

[XDragnoir]

A 3D multiverse is a multiverse consists of many non-infinite universes, it's that simple, and if it's infinite, it's essentially just an infinite universe (they both have a 3D structure, understand?)

That's already wrong.

Multiverses are a collection of universes, which are (in default terms) 4D (3 spatial dimension + time), the individual size of the universes has no bearing on its nature as a multiverse when seen collectively.

And if each universe is infinite... they don't simply become 1 infinite universe, wtf? Where did you get this from? In that case it would be an infinite multiverse with infinite universes, simply as that.

Now we go straight to 11D. The point here is NOT THAT TOARU HAS INFINITE WORLDS, I DIDN'T SAY THAT, the point is that Magic Gods's power are INFINITE compare to the Physical universe, WHICH IS 11D (you agreed on this point about the physical universe, IT IS 11D).

Sure.

BUT on this scope, 11D I mean, we can't have something like the 3D one, like "infinite 3D structures in an infinite 3D dimension", AND LET ALONE THAT INFINITY CRUSED IT, IT CRUSHED THE INFINITY BEING 11D, does that even make sense anymore if the INFINITY that crushed said world isn't transcendent to said world?

We can't because? 11D isn't any special in comparison to 3D, you know. Also, as I said before, having infinite AP and destroying something infinite and whatever else you want to scale up doesn't get you from 11D to 12D, the same happens with any verse that has scaling in H3A (which is infinite 3D energy), they will never get to Tier 2 if they don't start destroying spacetime no matter how many infinites they stack.

Anyway, I don't have more time to answer the other things y'all said for now, goodbye everyone.

 

[Piamma]

@Piamma could you get me a raw scans of the statement about Gabriel, stated that "the universe doesn't have enough material to support it's existence" in WW3? When it's going to blow the North pole up by gathering power.

"From the beginning, it was never believed that the entire capacity of an angel created by God could be contained using only materials from this physical world. Even Misha=Kreutzev during 'Angel Fall' was merely an 'incomplete' manifestation. If more output than what was anticipated were forcibly drawn out, Misha’s physical body itself would explode, releasing a massive amount of Telesma."

Do you also need it as a scan?"

 

[Aseka]

So yeah, Toaru is pretty similar to M Theory and the one going against it is the OP, what you said is just strange.

I'm going against it because I searched nothing regarding Schrödinger's dimensional theory of M-Theory.

 

[Aseka]

Ah, this thread has become a mess.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ah, this thread has become a mess.

Ya' think? Tbh, if this gets any more messy I might try to ask Ant and/or DT if we should make a topic ban regarding this topic. Like this is the second or third time this sorta topic has come up and been rejected, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Aseka]

Ya' think? Tbh, if this gets any more messy I might try to ask Ant and/or DT if we should make a topic ban regarding this topic. Like this is the second or third time this sorta topic has come up and been rejected, if I am not mistaken.

Not necessarily for banning, we already got 1-A ban rules for Toaru regarding Pure World... But maybe you can ask to close this.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Not necessarily for banning, we already got 1-A ban rules for Toaru regarding Pure World... But maybe you can ask to close this.

Nah, that got removed awhile ago. Plus, I don't think this thread is that bad, or even toxic. Just overly messy. No need to close for now.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

That's already wrong.

It's not, I know what a "multiverse" is, I'm giving you an example of what could it mean in different contexts (because some people might argue that Magic Gods only destroyed the material universe, not reality itself which is wrong)

We can't because? 11D isn't any special in comparison to 3D, you know. Also, as I said before, having infinite AP and destroying something infinite and whatever else you want to scale up doesn't get you from 11D to 12D, the same happens with any verse that has scaling in H3A (which is infinite 3D energy), they will never get to Tier 2 if they don't start destroying spacetime no matter how many infinites they stack.

Anyway, I don't have more time to answer the other things y'all said for now, goodbye everyone.

wym 11D isn't any special in comparison to 3D? And you MUST understand this here (I'll cap and bold the texts):

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT WITH THEIR INFINITE POWER THEY DESTROYED SOMETHING INFINITE, BUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO DIVIDE SAID INFINITE POWER INFINITELY TO, GET THIS, BARELY FIT IN THE WORLD AND WON'T STRUCTURELY DESTROY IT (MEANING IT'S NOT A MATTER OF RAW POWER AND PHYSICAL SPACE, BUT A MATTER OF COMPLEXITY OF SAID WORLD), THE WORLD DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH COMPLEXITY TO SUPPORT THE MAGIC GOD'S EXISTENCE, THEIR WHOLE EXISTENCE HASN'T JUST CREATED A WHOLE IN THE FABRIC OF REALITY, BUT WILL CRUSH SAID REALITY FUNDAMENTALLY, MANY METAPHORS AND COMPARISON HAS BEEN MADE, LIKE THE CACTUS POT AND BALLOON ONE, TO PROVE THIS POINT.

THE MATTER IS THAT THE MAGIC GOD'S ENTIRE EXISTENCE WAS INDIVIDUALLY TOO COMPLEX FOR THE WORLD TO HOLD, THE SAME THING HAPPENED WITH DRAGON KING AND GABRIEL (WHEN IT WAS TRYING TO ABSORB TOO MUCH POWER, AND IT EVEN HAS A STATEMENT TO BACK THIS UP): "he doubted that the material of the physical world could support the full capacity of an angel created by god" -STYIL IIRC -> CLEARLY MEANT THAT THE PHYSICAL WORLD DOESN'T HAVE THE COMPLEXITY, OR MEANT IT WASN'T BUILT FOR THIS LEVEL OF EXISTENCE AT ALL AND WILL HAVE AN ERROR.

NOW MAGIC GODS ARE ON A DIFFERENT LEVEL, THEY COMPLETELY CRUSH SAID WORLD UPON ENTERING IT, AND WILL COMPLETELY FILL THE MAX CAPACITY OF SAID WORLD, STRUCTURELY SPEAKING, NOT SIZE, IN THEIR NERF FORM -> CLEARLY PROOF FOR 12D

SIMPLY SAID, THE MAGIC GODS WERE NOT COMPATIBLE WITH SAID PHYSICAL WORLD, IT'S LIKE YOU TRYING TO PUT AN ELEPHANT ON A NORMAL BIKE, THE BIKE WAS NOT STRUCTURELY BUILT FOR THAT.

AND GET WHAT'S THE SPELL THAT INFINITELY DIVIDED THEIR POWER DID? IT LAYERED THEIR EXISTENCE INFINITELY, GET IT? GET THE PATTERN NOW? IT'S LIKE TO FIT A 3D OBJECT IN A 2D WORLD YOU WILL NEED TO LAYER THEM INFINITELY INTO INFINITE SLICES, CAUSE THEY HAS 1 MORE AXIS THAN THE DIMENSION COULD HANDLE, SAME CASE.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"From the beginning, it was never believed that the entire capacity of an angel created by God could be contained using only materials from this physical world. Even Misha=Kreutzev during 'Angel Fall' was merely an 'incomplete' manifestation. If more output than what was anticipated were forcibly drawn out, Misha’s physical body itself would explode, releasing a massive amount of Telesma."

Do you also need it as a scan?"

Yes, jpn scan

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Ah, this thread has become a mess.

Well, I think a way to fix this is to choose whatever idea is the best in here, make that the topic for a new thread instead, I think we're discussing too many topics at the same time here

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Not necessarily for banning, we already got 1-A ban rules for Toaru regarding Pure World... But maybe you can ask to close this.

what is this 1A ban rule?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Whatever it is, I think we have enough material to work on a proper 12D upgrade thread, if you all agreeing to my logic then we could try to go with it (@Piamma if you could have a complete logic with your H1B proposal then we could try to go with that, though I think it's still quite iffy for now, does GT11 has anything to further support this?)