12-D A Certain Magical Index

[korea1234]

@Piamma could you get me a raw scans of the statement about Gabriel, stated that "the universe doesn't have enough material to support it's existence" in WW3? When it's going to blow the North pole up by gathering power.

We'll upload a Japanese scan.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

We'll upload a Japanese scan.

nah, "the universe doesn't have enough material to support it's existence" -> this part, you're going over it a bit I think

 

[korea1234]

nah, "the universe doesn't have enough material to support it's existence" -> this part, you're going over it a bit I think

What does that mean?

"From the beginning, it was never believed that the entire capacity of an angel created by God could be contained using only materials from this physical world. Even Misha=Kreutzev during 'Angel Fall' was merely an 'incomplete' manifestation. If more output than what was anticipated were forcibly drawn out, Misha’s physical body itself would explode, releasing a massive amount of Telesma."

Do you also need it as a scan?"

I've posted a Japanese scan of this English sentence.

 

[Felience1]

I think the only argument i would buy is the High 1-B/ 1-A with Curtana integers and Angels and phases trascending everything dimensional, only if that is what is said by Kamachi in a clear enough way. In the translation i read i don't think it said what you guys are claiming. If you find a way to properly translate and make a organized CRT it has a chance of working.

This is a debate more than a CRT is all over the place with everyone having different interpretations.

The 12D i am completely against since i don't think is clear enough at all with teleporters and i don't agree with the MG argument. Ain stuff is unexplained too. Pure world has nothing to do with tiering to my knowledge. Hidden phase MAYBE with the no directions and time, not completely sold on that. But we can leave this after we deal with the dimensionality in To aru and phases relationship with them. it may go from High 1-B to 1-A with this too. For now lets deal with the curtana, angels and phases stuff.

That's my take on all of this. Hope we can make a CRT with everything organized and deal with this arguments that have been talked about several times whether is accepted or not.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What does that mean?

I've posted a Japanese scan of this English sentence.

my translator is acting up, no problem

 

[Felience1]

my translator is acting up, no problem

Machine translation won't be accepted when we have a fan one right?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I think the only argument i would buy is the High 1-B/ 1-A with Curtana integers and Angels and phases trascending everything dimensional, only if that is what is said by Kamachi in a clear enough way. In the translation i read i don't think it said what you guys are claiming. If you find a way to properly translate and make a organized CRT it has a chance of working.

This is a debate more than a CRT is all over the place with everyone having different interpretations.

The 12D i am completely against since i don't think is clear enough at all with teleporters and i don't agree with the MG argument. Ain stuff is unexplained too. Pure world has nothing to do with tiering to my knowledge. Hidden phase MAYBE with the no directions and time, not completely sold on that. But we can leave this after we deal with the dimensionality in To aru and phases relationship with them. it may go from High 1-B to 1-A with this too. For now lets deal with the curtana, angels and phases stuff.

That's my take on all of this. Hope we can make a CRT with everything organized and deal with this arguments that have been talked about several times whether is accepted or not.

Yeah, this thread is too messy so things are quite difficult for us, we don't tackle each points thoroughly at all and I think this won't progress

Also why are you against the 12D? I mean with the Magic God stuff (the logic that I used), it's all in the thread but if you need to I can repeat my logic for you, I think I made my points clear enough and also I don't see any flaws in it at all, I'm certain now that the 12D would be the most promising one.

About H1B, I simply think it's not possible with current information (unless the Japanese scans could prove otherwise), 1A might be possible though still unclear. I haven't read GT11 but I saw some promising lines in there, it might prove something.

I think it's 100% possible to upgrade Toaru now, though it might be hard as hell.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Machine translation won't be accepted when we have a fan one right?

Not really, fan translation would sometimes be incorrect context wise (though I do believe js06 won't fumble). Using chat GPT might help expanding the context more, with the help of Piamma we might get the clear context of confusing lines.

 

[korea1234]

Not really, fan translation would sometimes be incorrect context wise (though I do believe js06 won't fumble). Using chat GPT might help expanding the context more, with the help of Piamma we might get the clear context of confusing lines.

So now you're going to write a 12D upgrade post?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

So are we now posting a 12D upgrade thread?

Yea, let's start with that, then continue going up if we find something new.

 

[Felience1]

If you intend to post a thread you need to make sure everything is well put in the op.
You don't need to post your 12D argument i read the entire thread, still disagree.

 

[Felience1]

Piamma way of handling things i think has the best chance of working (is the one i like the most too). You do you guys.
By the way if any of you have time check the Alice resistance CRT and give your take, is kind of dead and it would be helpful.

 

[korea1234]

This passage mentions that the Magic Gods can manipulate all elements, dimensions, and phases.

and This is also one of Kamachi's frequently used writing techniques.
He often constructs sentences that expand in scope, moving from the Earth to the universe, and then to the world.
The first passage follows the same pattern, with the scope gradually extending from elements to dimensions and then to phases.

その「真の魔神」は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊力で上条を追う。
The true Magic Gods pursue Kamijou with overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimensions.

Although it's a summary, it clearly describes that the Magic Gods possess overwhelming destructive power that even transcends dimensions."

@Felience1

Is this what you're talking about?

 

[Felience1]

I think there was more like that. That is one of them. If that is the appropriate translation that is good evidence towards a posible 1-A. First i think we should start with 1-B or High 1-B whatever you decide is better. Curtana and Angels along with the statement you just showed will be a good chance of people accepting it if we put them together in a easy to read way. Or maybe people disagree no clue to be honest i just think this is the better way of doing this.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

If you intend to post a thread you need to make sure everything is well put in the op.
You don't need to post your 12D argument i read the entire thread, still disagree.

Well, why won't my argument works then? I just want to see if it has any flaws.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I think Piamma's ways of doing is the best, since people never take in the right contexts of the scans (and of course, not in Japanese too). It has a good chance, but tbh might be hard since they usually will call it "mental gymnastic" if not clear enough.

 

[Felience1]

Well, why won't my argument works then? I just want to see if it has any flaws.

If you are talking about MG argument i think is either they transcend dimensions and is 1-A or they don't are it's just what we have.

 

[Felience1]

I think Piamma's ways of doing is the best, since people never take in the right contexts of the scans (and of course, not in Japanese too). It has a good chance, but tbh might be hard since they usually will call it "mental gymnastic" if not clear enough.

I agree that the format and wording are important. And scans.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

If you are talking about MG argument i think is either they transcend dimensions and is 1-A or they don't are it's just what we have.

I think 12D is also stupid too, but because we literally lacks lots of things for 1-A currently, 12D the best I've got (and of course I think my logic is sound enough, with proper scans too).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

anyways, 1-A might be possible, 12D is my best bet, but if you think 1-A is more possible then I will try to go with that too.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

We need a new thread.

 

[korea1234]

We need a new thread.

I think you should create a new thread.

 

[Felience1]

I think we should leave MG for a second CRT and make one only with curtana and similar things first but we can go all the way if you want.

 

[korea1234]

Spoiler: NT 6

(I think Shirai-san’s ability converts the perceived three dimensional space into strict 11 dimensional space and then moves a different axis instead of using wormholes, but the detailed theory behind it is on a university graduate student level. Please don’t look to a completely normal middle school student for an intelligent answer about it...)

@Felience1

In NT 6, it is referred to as an 11-dimensional space.
It is not “11-dimensional”, it is “11-dimensional space”.

In other words, we're talking about 11 dimensional space + time.

This makes it 12 dimensions.

 

[Felience1]

That may work. but if what is said about Curtana is true then that's what almost everyone will use since almost everyone i think would scale to the higher value.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

@XDragnoir

Spoiler: NT 6

(I think Shirai-san’s ability converts the perceived three dimensional space into strict 11 dimensional space and then moves a different axis instead of using wormholes, but the detailed theory behind it is on a university graduate student level. Please don’t look to a completely normal middle school student for an intelligent answer about it...)

What do you think of the phrase “11 dimensional space”?

Does not change anything tbh, the argument that "time could be the 4th one" still holds.

Anyways, the structure of "time" in Index is quite interesting, since the Magic Gods couldn't even detect the unused space in the timeline, we could try looking into that first.

Also me creating a thread? It's my first time creating one so I seriously don't know how, I think someone else should. I could try too if you all want, what should the thread be?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

We could use the fact that even Magic Gods can't detect unused space as the basis to start, if you can't prove that there are 11 space dimension, prove that the time dimension stands above all of them then.

 

[Felience1]

Does not change anything tbh, the argument that "time could be the 4th one" still holds.

Anyways, the structure of "time" in Index is quite interesting, since the Magic Gods couldn't even detect the unused space in the timeline, we could try looking into that first.

Also me creating a thread? It's my first time creating one so I seriously don't know how, I think someone else should. I could try too if you all want, what should the thread be?

Not really, a 11 dimensional space can't have time. Is used in math and i think it never includes time.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Not really, a 11 dimensional space can't have time. Is used in math and i think it never includes time.

in M-Theory I remember that it has 10 space dimension and 1 time dimension -> 11D. I remember there are scans about this topic in Index too, related to Quantum theory or something, maybe try digging that up first. There are some in this thread iirc.

 

[Felience1]

Then it should be space time, but anyways. This is for nothing if we do High 1-B or 1-A. I don't think 12D will work as i said.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Then it should be space time, but anyways. This is for nothing if we do High 1-B or 1-A. I don't think 12D will work as i said.

Well, we should then create separate thread for discussing each tier then? About H1B, I think we should skip that and go straight to 1-A tbh. In case the 1A doesn't work, we will also have the 12D thread, I still think that 12D might work, not that I believe that Toaru would just stop at 12D, just that there is a reason why it's still stopping at 11D.

Don't use Hilbert Space to upgrade Toaru to H1B, it won't work and I had confirmed that fact, so because of that, as I said, H1B is simply quite meh, if we can prove H1B using Curtana then Magic Gods will makes Toaru go straight to 1A, we don't need a H1B thread.

 

[Felience1]

Well, we should then create separate thread for discussing each tier then? About H1B, I think we should skip that and go straight to 1-A tbh. In case the 1A doesn't work, we will also have the 12D thread, I still think that 12D might work, not that I believe that Toaru would just stop at 12D, just that there is a reason why it's still stopping at 11D.

Don't use Hilbert Space to upgrade Toaru to H1B, it won't work and I had confirmed that fact, so because of that, as I said, H1B is simply quite meh, if we can prove H1B using Curtana then Magic Gods will makes Toaru go straight to 1A, we don't need a H1B thread.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Piamma]

I think Piamma's ways of doing is the best, since people never take in the right contexts of the scans (and of course, not in Japanese too). It has a good chance, but tbh might be hard since they usually will call it "mental gymnastic" if not clear enough.

"It is unfortunate, but writing the CRT is a task that you should handle. Since I don’t speak English, I am relying on GPT-4's translation to communicate with you.
Because of this, there might be typos or grammatical errors, which is not ideal for writing the CRT.
What I can help with is providing the original Japanese text you requested and offering the interpretation of Toaru that matches it."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"It is unfortunate, but writing the CRT is a task that you should handle. Since I don’t speak English, I am relying on GPT-4's translation to communicate with you.
Because of this, there might be typos or grammatical errors, which is not ideal for writing the CRT.
What I can help with is providing the original Japanese text you requested and offering the interpretation of Toaru that matches it."

Well, of course leave the CRT for me (or someone else since I've never wrote a CRT before, and better leave this stuff to the pros), for now we're just gonna be creating new thread to discuss about separate tiering (for now 1B and 1A)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

@Felience1 I'll leave the thread matter to you (since I don't know how to create one properly)

 

[XDragnoir]

I'll cap and bold the texts

This is the worst thing you could have done, it doesn't make your argument any better, instead it makes it a pain to read.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

This is the worst thing you could have done, it doesn't make your argument any better, instead it makes it a pain to read.

It's clearer for me though, if not then I guess I won't do that again.

But anyways, again, I'm sure my arguments holds, but I'll leave that to the new 12D thread (to be created), better organize the scans with the ideas first to make it sounder.

 

[Felience1]

@Felience1 I'll leave the thread matter to you (since I don't know how to create one properly)

i have no clue too.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm going against it because I searched nothing regarding Schrödinger's dimensional theory of M-Theory.

I mean, okay? That's not really the problem.

Spoiler: NT 6

(I think Shirai-san’s ability converts the perceived three dimensional space into strict 11 dimensional space and then moves a different axis instead of using wormholes, but the detailed theory behind it is on a university graduate student level. Please don’t look to a completely normal middle school student for an intelligent answer about it...)

@Felience1

In NT 6, it is referred to as an 11-dimensional space.
It is not “11-dimensional”, it is “11-dimensional space”.

In other words, we're talking about 11 dimensional space + time.

This makes it 12 dimensions.

First, I'd say you should check the original to see of that's present in the Japanese text as well.

Second, even if it is there, it's one statement vs all the others I've seen so far, I'd still go with the consistency in this case (especially because the figure of 12D was never used in the series once, but 11D has been used).

 

[Piamma]

First, I'd say you should check the original to see of that's present in the Japanese text as well.

"Wasn't it Mr. Shirai's wormhole method? It seemed like it transformed the perceived 3D space into a precise 11-dimensional space and moved along a different axis... But the detailed theory is at the graduate level, so don’t expect a proper answer from a middle schooler with no particular talents~"



認識上の三次元空間を厳密な一一次元空間に変換して
It seemed like it transformed the perceived 3D space into a precise 11-dimensional space