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Hell UIO2 is debatably weaker than UIO1 for being fatigued and not being able to damage SSJ2 Kefla who only might've surpassed UIO1 initially.
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You're not prepared enough... I'll destroy you completely!
- Thread starter Omegas03
- Start date
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It is stronger though...? Every UIO is stronger than the last, Goku is shown feat-wise to be stronger, Freeza, Whis and Champa all implied UIO2 > UIO1, Goku exhibited more control over UIO2 than UIO1, Kefla just by transforming surpassed UIO1, and the big thing: there's no evidence supporting UIO1 > UIO2, or even UIO1 = UIO2.
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You're ignoring the context. Initial UIO2 < SSJ2 Kefla = might have surpassed UIO1. It's clear that the difference between UIO1 and UIO2 is basically nonexistent, Goku having more control doesn't equate to more power. If he can't damage someone who's probably stronger that UIO1 and he's fatigued then it's possible that initial UIO2 is =< UIO1. UIO2 only officially surpassed UIO1 after he powered up and said 'behold the power of Ultra Instinct'.LordTracer said:
It's really not that hard to understand. If Goku's UIO2 is still relative to UIO1 then he didn't get any stronger naturally.
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You're ignoring that Goku is shown by feats and scaling to be stronger, he is stated three times as UIO2 to be stronger than UIO1, and there is still zero evidence supporting your idea that UIO1 > UIO2. And UIO2 Goku was harming Kefla before powering up, so...
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Give ma all three of those statements.
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Freeza: "Keep getting stronger, Son Goku sa."
- Freeza already considers the initial UIO2 Goku stronger.
Whis: "It incited Goku sa... allowing him to break through another of his self-limiting shells."
- Whis treats Goku achieving UIO again as him breaking through to another level, plus his aforementioned statement that it would take more power to force Goku into UIO also supports UIO2 being stronger.
Champa: "Hurry up and beat him before he masters Ultra Instinct!"
- When Goku First went Omen, there was no concern from anyone of him mastering Ultra Instinct. Champa believes it to be a possibility now, showing that UIO2 > UIO1.
Now, do you have any statements, or feats or anything that supports UIO1 > UIO2?
- Freeza already considers the initial UIO2 Goku stronger.
Whis: "It incited Goku sa... allowing him to break through another of his self-limiting shells."
- Whis treats Goku achieving UIO again as him breaking through to another level, plus his aforementioned statement that it would take more power to force Goku into UIO also supports UIO2 being stronger.
Champa: "Hurry up and beat him before he masters Ultra Instinct!"
- When Goku First went Omen, there was no concern from anyone of him mastering Ultra Instinct. Champa believes it to be a possibility now, showing that UIO2 > UIO1.
Now, do you have any statements, or feats or anything that supports UIO1 > UIO2?
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Ok good. Now tell me, how much stronger do you think Goku between UIO1 and 2?
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The difference is unquantifiable, though I could argue anywhere from 50x - 100x.
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This is where my problem comes from. The difference between UIO1 and 2 is not that big. You can say they're stronger but considering the 'might have' in Piccolo's statement goes to show that she's not that mush stronger than UIO1. If the difference was that big, they would've made a ginormous deal about it.LordTracer said:
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Not really, when Goku went Kaioken x20 against Jiren alongside Vegeta, all they said was that he was tapping into all of his power. They didn't make that big a deal of it. Same when Vegeta went Blue Evo, Grand Priest just stated he broke his limits and that was it. No reason for this to be any different (especially when SSBE should honestly be much more than a 100x multiplier).
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These are all slight implications. Piccolo outright stated that she might've surpassed UIO1 and that's the only direct statement we get with context. Again might have heavily implies that the gap between SSJ2 Kefla and UIO1 is definitely not 50-100 times.LordTracer said:
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And three other statements (plus feats) disagree with Piccolo and say the initial UIO2 is already superior. And SSBE, which should be more than a 100x multiplier, only had a single statement from TGP about breaking his limits. So it not being treated like a big deal isn't much of an argument.
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Those are other statements are merely implications while Piccolo actually has a gauge on her power.LordTracer said:
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And...? Champa, Whis and Freeza would all be able to tell how strong Goku was at the time.
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They only imply that he's stronger, not how strong he got. Piccolo says how strong they got.LordTracer said:
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Actually, no. Piccolo is saying that it's possible he got stronger, not how strong he is. Freeza, Whis and Champa are saying definitely that he's stronger.
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Yes, again, Piccolo is saying that it's possible Goku got stronger. He's not giving a gauge of how powerful he got. And UIO2 sent Kefla flying more than once.
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Saying it's possible only supports the minuscule difference dude. Also sending someone flying doesn't make them scale all the time. Base Frieza sent Jiren flying but doesn't scale for example. Plus it was pretty clear that regular attacks couldn't faze her.LordTracer said:
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And Piccolo's statement is the only thing that would support the difference being minuscule. Feats would say otherwise. And I'm not saying sending someone flying makes you scale, I dunno where you got that from. I'm saying UIO2 could absolutely affect Kefla with his attacks. He's weaker than her, but not the point that he can't harm her. Then again, Kefla is a glass cannon.
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Look, after some thinking, I'll admit that the U6 saiyans aren't base level at max. However this opens up another time that I'll bring up later.
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