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You kinda fight a Phantom Thief - Persona Edition
- Thread starter One_Stick_Man
- Start date
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Ren can take hits from Adam Kadmon Maruki, who scales massively above Yu's final key. Also Ren has fate hax, so Yu get's Trick ☆ Star'd at the end of the day.
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Izanagi-No-Okami but stronger, yeah lmao. A bit irrelevant, but the PIcaro Personas start off at a higher level than the normal forms of the Personas ironically enough.
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- Thread starter
- #5
Idk if this is still a stomp, but I've changed Ren key down to just third semester.
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Still a stomp since Third Semester Ren still scales to Maruki. Also, again, Yu can do nothing about Ren’s Trickster haxs.
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How does Ren's fate hax work in battle?
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It’s passive. It kinda just sways fate in Ren’s favor depending on the situation.
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- Thread starter
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Very well then. I shall nerf Ren down to False Endgame with no DLCs.
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I thought his fatehax was exclusive to working against other fatehax. Though I could be wrong
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Ren can manipulate and resist fate. But unlike with his resistance, I don't recall his fate manipulation being related to battle, or entirely passive.
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It’s on his profile.
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This could just be me misunderstanding things, but regarding the scans with Chihaya, Ren had to go out of his way in order to change the fates of those involved throughout the confidant. It even involved going to Mementos to change hearts twice, and giving words of encouragement that changed the minds of those he spoke with. To be clear, I'm not denying the fact that he manipulates fate (or wins this match). I'm just not certain that he can passively change a person's fate however he wants without taking any sort of actions (or apply this to a fight). Once again, my apologies if I'm totally wrong on this.
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He did, but that’s not the point I was referring to. Maruki was fated to lose to Ren, so much so he was certain if he fought him again he’d still lose.
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Yu lose FRA if it's not a stomp.
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Ah, that makes sense then.
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I'm not sure what the AP difference is, but I don't think Yu can get around Joker's fate hax and regen. So I'm inclined to vote for Joker.
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I don't think I can, either lol
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Joker is too hax and beat the stronger god. Even when they fought physically Joker was parrying him at close range with a gun, and can be argued to have been capable of shooting Yu in the skull prior to Yu being able to fully slash through Joker. Joker's will of rebellion also allows him to resist cognition and acts as armor where Yu has no such thing. Add to that the blatant deference of authority both crews show to Joker, and the fact that Joker was able to retain his memories of PQ2 while Yu was not, and I'm not sure how he beats false game ending Ren.
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Do we even know if Yu kept his memories? Only Hikari showed up to Ren’s world, as its established each team was from a different world.
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It was stated to be impossible to remember the events after leaving the world, and Yu obviously didn't remember the P3 crew from his first time meeting them in PQ. They went out of their way to show Joker remembering so only he gets the feat for being the exception to the pre-established memory wipe (except Elizabeth from the first PQ).
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From the wiki, it says “Hikari is introduced as its director. The P5 hero shows surprise at seeing her, then smiles. Whether or not he remembers anything is left ambiguous.”
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I think it’s similar to the end credits scene in Royal where we see “that guy” right before Ren leaves. We’re not given direct confirmation, and it could be considered ambiguous.
But we all know who it is. So it can be reasoned that he does remember, given the game goes out of its way to hint that he does.
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Why would Ren show surprise at seeing her in his world, and smile if he did not remember her? It doesn't logically follow that he would exhibit two behaviors for no reason. The stimulus of seeing her prompted that behavior which is a very heavy implication that he remembered. Joker also pretty much does the same thing in royal when he and Akechi remember events despite Maruki literally rewriting causality. Something shown even in the bad ending.
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That makes sense. Unfortunately, Yu does get pretty much fatehax stomped, even with the potential revision Makoto & him have to resist it.
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- Thread starter
- #26
Welp, Yu gets stomped rip.
Should I change the opponent, or should I just leave the thread be?
Should I change the opponent, or should I just leave the thread be?
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Try finding someone from a different verse.
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Yup, I get stomped.
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Looking back at the P3 ending of PQ, do you think it could have been implied that Makoto remembers the events of the game as well? Elizabeth notes that he seems to have changed, and is pleased.
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He does after Elizabeth awakens them inside of him IIRC which is why she starts of their interaction by recounting what she thinks she remembers.
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She assumed the events that occured throughout the game must have been a dream, but then she started doubting that notion upon realizing that Makoto has changed somehow. I don't think he would have changed at all if he didn't recall the events of the game, and even seemed pleased without being told any details besides "a small incident occurred". Although, since Makoto never spoke to confirm or deny this, it's not totally clear.
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Yes she told the events and was a bit hazy, that is why I said "what she thinks she remembers". But it's clear she recounts the events we play and tells Makoto of these events he clearly was unaware of. Makoto changed because wether he remembers the events or not, they still had an effect on him. This is something made clear in both games, and a theme touched upon in innocent into Eternal Punishment with the potential for remembering being there. But Joker on two occasions has just been outright blatantly unaffected.
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It should be noted that Makoto & Yu should at least have a possibly in this.
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There is no evidence for them being unaffected by the wipe. Makoto demonstrably did not remember, and Yu has never been shown post Q adventures so there is zero evidence for him having the feat. Only Eilzabeth would qualify for possibly or likely since she did remember the events but herself was unsure if what happened actually took place.
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It was noted that he changed, so imo, it’s a possibility.
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For that to follow logically makoto changing and him remembering would have to be inherently tied together and they aren't. P2 cast make it a point that even if they won't remember each other they still changed each other. If Makoto would have lost an arm in the fight in PQ him coming back to reality wouldn't have given him a new arm, he just wouldn't have remembered how he lost it. Same thing, he can be changed and not remember.
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Elizabeth notes it, being skeptical should at least warrant a possibly in this.
I disagree with that line of logic, as Elizabeth literally makes the point that he’s smiling and that he’s changed. If they changed each other, it should matter, I’m certain that they said that in P2 before their memories were erased as a parting message. This is further supported by Makoto buying one of Hikari’s movies, explicitly saying “I felt the urge” to buy it. Minako also notes her dream as well, questioning if it was a dream too.
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@Dr._whiteee
Makoto remembered the dark hour despite his teammates forgetting, so I also believe it should at least be a possibility.
Makoto remembered the dark hour despite his teammates forgetting, so I also believe it should at least be a possibility.
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-Yes him changing is not what is being argued.
- Their memories were erased because they would cause a paradox if they remembered.
- Yes exactly, he felt an urge, aka an instinct. Not something he was conscious of. Makoto did not remember the events, despite said events leaving an imprint on them. The "reset" that happens to characters in Q is a memory wipe, not time or causality reversal (like in the case with Maruki). Joker is the only person shown to actively show conscious acknowledgment of the events or related people.
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I don't doubt they have some level of resistance to memory or slight causality stuff. They just don't scale to Joker, and in this case (Q events) just don't have evidence to qualify for the feat. Your example is a good one displaying the level of Makoto's resistance.
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