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Persona General Revisions Thread Part 2: Hax & Additions

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Round 2, lot to cover, let’s just get started.

• The Omnipotent Orb should possess Law Manipulation, and grant Law-based Invulnerability.
This is based on the description of the item in Persona Q2, where the Orb is stated to nullify all damage through bending the laws of the universe. In turn, Almighty skills would thus bypass Law-based defenses via bypassing the effects of the Orb.
 
I know this is only a small part of the CRT, but where is the evidence for Type 2 Concepts? Cause just changing the Concepts of Reality is not Type 2 Concepts and would only be Type 3 without further evidence?
 
Not necessarily.

False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.”

The Collective Unconscious is the source of everything in Persona, existing before anything, and transcends time and space, holding these concepts. So, when the human conscious and subconscious changes reality, these concepts are changed with it.
 
Basically what Milly said. Type 3 concepts are destroyed when all things participating in that concept is destroyed. But the CU is transcendent of the things its concepts govern. The archetype of a table would not cease to exist just because all tables are destroyed across the multiverse. It would only cease to exist if humans cease to believe that "tables" exist.
 
Most of it seems suprisingly really good for such a massive upgrade.
One thing is I don’t know if Joker’s statement counts as Fate manipulation itself, just a byproduct of his ignoring of fate.
 
Yeah, I guess I can see it.
Just have a note explaining how it works (changing things that were fated to happen. Just so it doesn’t get misinterpreted as something super busted.)
 
This is due to the Persona 2 Ice-attribute skill, named "絶対零度" (i.e. Absolute Zero), being of equal potency to Bufula.
I'll be honest I think a single name without any other showing to back it up is a bit iffy but

Eh, don't really have any other complaints, this is just a load of stuff and I don't really see the problems with it

Though I guess I could argue the High Godly regen works more like resurrection but it ultimately results in the same level of unkillability, just with the extra detail that they don't just heal any attacks short of negating their ability to come back from being destroyed on every level of existence

... which is also something that should apply to demons in SMT but that's another time
 
Admin agrees with the massive hax addition to popular verse.
A surprise to be sure. But a welcome one.
I don’t think the absolute zero thing is something worth much argument over but since it’s a title rather then a statement that could be exaggerated, I think it should be good.
 
Don't they already? I thought SMT had high-godly already?
I know, but what I'm saying is it's more along the lines of resurrection, since they can still get wounded and die before it kicks in and brings them back.
 
Also even as a person who hasn’t gotten around to playing any SMT games yet (I do want to though. Are any available on pc/probably steam?)
The profiles need a major rework. My boy Mike has like 3 abilities and a link to a demon physiology page.
 
Also even as a person who hasn’t gotten around to playing any SMT games yet (I do want to though. Are any available on pc/probably steam?)
You're going to have to emulate if you want a SMT game on PC

That said, PCSX2 and Citra are your friends. That'll give you access to nearly all of the good SMT games

Nocturne, IV, Digital Devil Saga, Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha, it goes on and on.
 
There's a lot to discuss here, so I'll quickly run over my thoughts on everything.

Law Manip for Omnipotent Orb

I've admittedly always had a lingering feeling that this one is too barebones as a justification, but honestly, it's just straightforward enough that it doesn't need much more explanation. I agree with this.

Telekinesis for Personas

I'm a bit finicky over how this provides only a handful of examples of Personas and extrapolates that to say that all Personas possess the ability. Especially since not all Personas possess the same powers. Although, I believe I recall this being demonstrated elsewhere too. Consider me neutral, leaning towards agreement.

Malleable Persona Magic

It's pretty cut-and-dry that Persona abilities can be manipulated to a massive extent by the users imagination, though it's difficult to tell where we draw the NLF line. The abilities listed beneath this should be fine, though.

Invulnerability for Null Skills

It's another weird case of "where do we draw the line?", but I think this is a reasonable addition.

Persona Users gain their Persona's Abilities

I suppose this is fine?

Persona Users resist Madness Manip

Agreed.

Transmutation and Sealing for Rulers of Power

Agreed.

Fate Manip for Ren Amamiya

As far as I'm aware, cases of characters opposing/changing fate are not considered passive Fate Manip, but rather just Resistance to Fate Manip. So I agree with Resistance to Fate Manip, and disagree with passive Fate Manip.

Clairvoyance for Wild Cards

Seems fine to me.

Memory Manip for Palace Rulers

Agreed.

Minor Subjective Reality for the PTs

Agreed.

Resistance to Distortions for the PTs

I've mentioned in the past that this one is finicky for me. They undeniably have some level of resistance to the distortions, but it's unclear if they resist the effects of the distortion (like being EE'd near the end of Persona 5) or if they resist the distortion itself (which would give some level of resistance to Reality Warping and a few other things). If they resist the latter, they'd never have an example of resisting the former (since if they resisted the Distortion directly in the first place, the would never need to resist the effects the Distortion caused), and vice versa, so we need to decide on one interpretation or the other. I'm unsure which I agree with though. It's worth discussing.

Yaldabaoth’s Existence Erasure includes erasure of mind, body, soul, information, concept and history

This is mostly okay, though I've mentioned previously that I do not agree with it being historical erasure. It is explicitly shown multiple times that the Phantom Thieves and their impact on the world around them still existed, even after they were erased by Yaldabaoth. This includes scenes showing details such as the fact that the Phansite is still up, that people on the street are shown talking about the Phantom Thieves, and that all of the Palace Rulers they defeated are still within the depths of Mementos all after they are erased. At no point are they erased from history; the closest thing is people on the street saying that they "felt stupid for ever believing the Phantom Thieves existed", which in itself proves that they still existed on a historical level, since otherwise no-one would know what the Phantom Thieves were.

The evidence for the other types of erasure seems agreeable, though.

P5R gives new abilities

Agreed on all of those, they seem fine to me.

Ren's New Confidant Abilities

Agreed.

High-Godly Regen for PTs

This one only really works if we accept historical erasure for Yaldabaoth, which I've mentioned I do not. I recall Mid-Godly being a notable discussion previously though, and I think that might be acceptable.

A whole bunch of additions for Persona skills

To save time writing, I pretty much agree with all of these, and will just point out a few I have more words on.

"Counter", "Counterstrike", and "High Counter" are all parries rather than passives

I'm dubious about using the P4A version of this for the profiles, since this seems to contradict how it's represented in the main series in favour of a spinoff game. If we go by the logic that the main games probably just can't really represent these skills in a clear-cut way though, I think this is acceptable.




I'll continue later, since I'm a bit busy ATM, and also exhausted from looking through so many links. Sorry; I'll go through the rest when I can!
 
Bejesus, the sheer text wall makes this hard to read. I'll try give my full opinions later (if I don't get busy which is unlikely) but I'd like to ask 2 questions. This is mostly related to the High Godly and Yaldy's EE stuff since I have issues with it and its what I feel is the biggest thing to tackle here. Okay so here we go!

Question 1:
How is Yaldy's EE on a conceptual level? If according to DarkGrath "people on the street saying that they "felt stupid for ever believing the Phantom Thieves existed" then wouldn't that debunk not only historical but only conceptual due to the fact that the concept of the Phantom Thieves (and thus the concepts of the characters) are still around? Is there a scan saying that they're not even conceptually existing? If not then this is a similar situation as KH3 Sora which was rejected for High Godly. Mid Godly can work though but I'd really have it be limited due to it only ever kicking in when they got hit by the EE.

Question 2:
Why wouldn't the High Godly just be Type 8? Its clearly reliant on the Velvet room by the mere fact that they not only show up there but also must leave it in order to reclaim their existence. If you can provide a scan of a character who does the same thing but without the use of the Velvet room then I'll be satisfied with it being regeneration.

Well those are my two questions, sorry if there are some brain farts in there its really late and I wanna go to sleep. Hope you all have a good day!
 
Why wouldn't the High Godly just be Type 8? Its clearly reliant on the Velvet room by the mere fact that they not only show up there but also must leave it in order to reclaim their existence. If you can provide a scan of a character who does the same thing but without the use of the Velvet room then I'll be satisfied with it being regeneration.

Well those are my two questions, sorry if there are some brain farts in there its really late and I wanna go to sleep. Hope you all have a good day!
They're not being resurrected based on a place. They're resurrecting themselves, as during their time in the Velvet Room, Lavenza refers to them being in a state where they don't exist, and that they must reclaim their existence themselves.
 
How is Yaldy's EE on a conceptual level? If according to DarkGrath "people on the street saying that they "felt stupid for ever believing the Phantom Thieves existed" then wouldn't that debunk not only historical but only conceptual due to the fact that the concept of the Phantom Thieves (and thus the concepts of the characters) are still around? Is there a scan saying that they're not even conceptually existing? If not then this is a similar situation as KH3 Sora which was rejected for High Godly. Mid Godly can work though but I'd really have it be limited due to it only ever kicking in when they got hit by the EE.
At that point, they had yet to be erased. They were only erased when people flat-out forgot about the Phantom Thieves entirely, which is shown to have happened as soon as people stopped paying attention to the fact that a bunch of teenagers were slowly crumbling to ash in the middle of the busiest street in Tokyo. The Phantom Thieves don't exist, so to the public, there was nobody there.

When the PTs came back, restoring their existence, people began to notice and remember them again. An old man in the crowd even admits that he had completely forgotten about them.

It's all lined up pretty well. People still remember them, they exist. The instant people forgot about them and no longer acknowledged their existence, they ceased to exist. Vice versa, they restore their existence, and people remember. Simple.
 
Telekinesis for Personas

I'm a bit finicky over how this provides only a handful of examples of Personas and extrapolates that to say that all Personas possess the ability. Especially since not all Personas possess the same powers. Although, I believe I recall this being demonstrated elsewhere too. Consider me neutral, leaning towards agreement.
The vast majority of Shadows also display telekinetic abilities, so with Personas being tamed Shadows, it shouldn't be a stretch to assume that they also have the same abilities.
Fate Manip for Ren Amamiya

As far as I'm aware, cases of characters opposing/changing fate are not considered passive Fate Manip, but rather just Resistance to Fate Manip. So I agree with Resistance to Fate Manip, and disagree with passive Fate Manip.
Changing fate is outright Fate Manipulation. Opposing it is resisting, sure, and maybe one can make the argument that just changing your own fate is still just resistance, but Ren flat-out changed other people's fates in more or less exactly the way he wanted. If it were just a matter of resisting Fate Manip, he'd have no control over what happens to the fates of others.
Resistance to Distortions for the PTs

I've mentioned in the past that this one is finicky for me. They undeniably have some level of resistance to the distortions, but it's unclear if they resist the effects of the distortion (like being EE'd near the end of Persona 5) or if they resist the distortion itself (which would give some level of resistance to Reality Warping and a few other things). If they resist the latter, they'd never have an example of resisting the former (since if they resisted the Distortion directly in the first place, the would never need to resist the effects the Distortion caused), and vice versa, so we need to decide on one interpretation or the other. I'm unsure which I agree with though. It's worth discussing.
From what I know, this is more or less exactly like Blazblue's Phenomena Intervention. It's both. The PTs resist the reality warps themselves and as a result resist the effects of said reality warps.
High-Godly Regen for PTs

This one only really works if we accept historical erasure for Yaldabaoth, which I've mentioned I do not. I recall Mid-Godly being a notable discussion previously though, and I think that might be acceptable.
High-Godly only needs one of its criteria to be met, and you've agreed on conceptual erasure.
 
Doesn't High-Godly require all the criteria to be met? Here's the exact quote for it:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.

It does not state that you can simply regenerate from one of them; it states that you need to regenerate from all aspects of existence, and that this includes things such as history and conceptual destruction. The fact that they still historically existed shows that they still existed in some aspect, which would denounce High-Godly.


Also, I'm unsure about comparing to Blazbue's Phenomena Intervention. I am not knowledgeable on that verse, nor do I intend to pretend that I am, so take my words with a grain of salt. However, I do not see the logic in a feat depicting someone simultaneously resisting an effect and resisting the cause of the effect. If they are shown resisting the cause of the effect, they never have to deal with the effect in the first place. And if they are shown resisting the effect directly, that shows that they didn't resist the cause of it. Because of this, I'm uncomfortable with giving the PT's resistance to things such as Reality Warping, as well as resistance to things like Existence Erasure simultaneously; if they resisted the Reality Warping by resisting cognition, they'd never have to resist EE in the first place. And if they only resisted the effects of cognition such as Existence Erasure, that shows that they were still hit by the Reality Warping but simply nullified the effects of it. The two are borderline mutually exclusive, so it doesn't seem reasonable to argue that both are the case at the same time.

If my further input on it is at all helpful, from what I recall of the end of P5, it seemed to imply far more that they were blocking themselves off from Yaldabaoth's distortions rather than simply avoiding the consequences of being affected by cognition, which means resistance to things like Reality Warping and Subjective Reality should be completely fine.
 
Doesn't High-Godly require all the criteria to be met? Here's the exact quote for it:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.

It does not state that you can simply regenerate from one of them; it states that you need to regenerate from all aspects of existence, and that this includes things such as history and conceptual destruction. The fact that they still historically existed shows that they still existed in some aspect, which would denounce High-Godly.
The phrase such as implies it only has to be one of the 3. Rimuru Tempest has EE on a High-Godly level because information makes up concepts, and it has nothing to do with history. It only has to be one, or all. All aspects of existence varies, and there has been talk to getting that removed, but we know the mind, physical body, soul, concept, and information exist in Persona.

Not saying anything on BlazBlue Phenomenon Intervention, haven’t read that part of response.
 
I'm not sure I'd agree that it implies you only need one of the three, though that's a bit of a nitpicky detail.

Point is, they aren't erased from all aspects of existence, because there is explicit evidence that they do exist historically. And if they weren't erased from all aspects of existence, coming back from it wouldn't be High-Godly.
 
It's only one of the three. Not all verses have plot manip. The phrase goes "erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction." Notice the "or" that denotes that it is any one of the three, not all three at once, which would warrant an "and".
 
Also, I'm unsure about comparing to Blazbue's Phenomena Intervention. I am not knowledgeable on that verse, nor do I intend to pretend that I am, so take my words with a grain of salt. However, I do not see the logic in a feat depicting someone simultaneously resisting an effect and resisting the cause of the effect. If they are shown resisting the cause of the effect, they never have to deal with the effect in the first place. And if they are shown resisting the effect directly, that shows that they didn't resist the cause of it. Because of this, I'm uncomfortable with giving the PT's resistance to things such as Reality Warping, as well as resistance to things like Existence Erasure simultaneously; if they resisted the Reality Warping by resisting cognition, they'd never have to resist EE in the first place. And if they only resisted the effects of cognition such as Existence Erasure, that shows that they were still hit by the Reality Warping but simply nullified the effects of it. The two are borderline mutually exclusive, so it doesn't seem reasonable to argue that both are the case at the same time.

If my further input on it is at all helpful, from what I recall of the end of P5, it seemed to imply far more that they were blocking themselves off from Yaldabaoth's distortions rather than simply avoiding the consequences of being affected by cognition, which means resistance to things like Reality Warping and Subjective Reality should be completely fine.
A reality warper can make reality do something it wouldn't do naturally. The target of the reality warping is only on reality itself, and the effect is independent of the reality warp except for in the case of the reality warp directly manipulating the part of reality that is the target of the intended effect. Take for example, a reality warper can bring a fire into existence to incinerate someone, but the only things involved in that are the reality warper and the fire. If the target of the fire is burned, that's between the fire and the target. If the target isn't incinerated, then they resist Fire Manip, not necessarily Reality Warping.

The biggest reason why Persona resists both the effects and the Reality Warping itself is because there have been cases where different applications of Reality Warping affect them while others are resisted despite originating from the same source. Take for example, Takuto Maruki. We know for a fact that the Phantom Thieves by that point can resist his distortions just by being present within his Palace and not being affected by its distortions, but it is outright stated that Maruki can erase them from existence if he wanted, and he also displays the ability to rewrite laws in his Palace to prevent specific actions, which none of the PTs could resist. If it were a case of the PTs blanket resisting the Reality Warping itself, then either none of the applications of it should've affected them, or all of it should. This clearly isn't the case, however, which would imply that there are varying degrees of resistance to each specific application of Maruki's Reality Warping.

There is a "base level" resistance to Reality Warping in its entirety, however, as Morgana specifically states that the Phantom Thief outfits protect their wearers from the distortions themselves, which would refer to the reality warps.
 
I don’t see what contradicts that. A name isn’t much worse, if any than a description for these things.
 
As the page details, a name isn't enought of a hint as it can as well just be there to make the move sound "cooler", or simply not necessarily be actually an Absolute Zero move.

Hence why statements that actually mention that being the case in some way is needed.
 
The motivation for something (being cool.) doesn’t change the underlying logic behind it.
I mean that is the same reason a description like that would be added anyway, so what’s the point?
 
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