Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty much yes to all of that.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, that’s one.

 

[DMUA]

I honestly don't know all that much about the inner workings of Persona, which is why I sorta dipped from the thread after a bit, and I don't really want to read through hundreds of posts all over again to see what makes sense

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Low 2-C Palaces.

Arguments for: Palace’s are stated to be a mirror of the real world by various reliable sources, with no discernible evidence against this, with various characters saying things outside of the heavily distorted distortion being just as normal. This is further proven by moons, suns, and entire star clusters appearing in the sky. The word “world”, “dimension”, and “reality”, is often used to denote “universe” when it comes to contextual realms like this, with characters such as Marie, Databooks, Morgana, Elizabeth, Philemon, Maruki, who are all incredibly knowledgeable on the Metaverse.

Arguments against: We don't know what size palaces are, world doesn't denote size, so there's nothing for us to assume size off of besides what we can actually see and demonstrably prove. (From Dargoo) World doesn’t always mean universe, and requires context.

2-B Umr-at-Tawil & Scaling:

Arguments for: Umr passively and casually holds up countless realities with his very existence, even whilst fighting the P2 Cast.

Arguments against: We have vague or no standards for sustaining feats, this is no longer a Persona-verse problem, as other characters have sustaining feats as well (D&D, 682).

Immeasurable Speed:

Denied and getting removed anyways.

Lifting Strength:

Unanimously agreed on. However, Dargoo believes Mada’s universal lifting strength should be held off on till Low 2-C is dealt with.

Limitless Mental Stamina:

Denied due to extrapolation and not enough evidence.

Range:

Denied due to no reason to assume all spells have the same range as Cosmic Flare & Morning Star.

Yaldabaoth mindhax:

Unanimously agreed on.

You don’t have to.

 

[DMUA]

Or I do because that list seems a bit slanted towards a particular side when I know there are stronger reasons for opposition

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The only real competition was the first two. Like Sol said,

“Low 2-C Palaces just comes down to which side of the argument makes more sense to outside viewers, since it's quite literally semantics at this point, as opposed to a matter of logic. That is to say, it should just come down to a vote.”

Scrolling down through Page 4, that’s quite literally the exact argument being made.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In fact, objectively looking at the summarized arguments, it’s quite literally all equal.

Contested: Low 2-C Palaces & 2-B Umr, Universal Lifting Strength, Immeasurable Lifting Strength (3)

Agreed: Multiversal Range for VR Attendants & Gods, Yaldabaoth’s mindhax, Class M Lifting Strength (3)

Disagreed: Range scaling, Limitless Mental Stamina, Immeasurable Speed (3)

 

[Schnee_One]

Quite honestly when it comes to 2B, the feat of sustaining realities is currently accepted as AP, as seen with SCP and D&D. So until that standard is changed, 2B is legit.

Low 2C I contest for all the previous reasons

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Low 2C I contest for all the previous reasons

Didn’t you say you were neutral on that, leaning towards agreement? Granted it was like 3 weeks ago, so.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah that was three weeks ago, I may have to reread everything again to be sure

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah that was three weeks ago, I may have to reread everything again to be sure

Take your time.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Schnee. Feel free to write a summary of your own afterwards.

 

[Schnee_One]

So, anyway, read through as best as could, I can’t say I have enough of an opinion on low 2C palaces since arguments are made religiously by both sides, though Solacis made the point on mementos being low 2C and Palaces scaling as a result, and that hasn’t been addressed yet, so I’m still leaning on agreement right now.

2B straight up should be fine until the standards themselves are changed, SCP and D@D have these types of feats already accepted. Until those standards are tackled it should be fine to do the same, wouldn’t be hard to just revert the tier down to Low 2C when that time comes.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nice, thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is the staff consensus here?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Dragon, Cal, DDM, Schnee, and Grath agree.

DMUA doesn’t care anymore.

Matt, Dargoo, Eff disagree.

So more staff agreements that disagreements.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but Matthew, Dargoo, and Eficiente tend to be very good at critical thinking. This is by no means a sufficiently clear-cut case to push through yet.

I will call for some help.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX

What do you think?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Don’t ever recall Eff actually saying why he disagreed, Matt just agreed with Dargoo, and Dargoo is the only one who made any actual arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Matthew_Schroeder @Eficiente @Dargoo_Faust

Can you elaborate regarding why you disagree please?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If it’s anything with note, I mentioned all of this to Ultima in another server around a month back, saying he agreed with 2-B, which sorta ties into Low 2-C Palaces.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's no evidence to palaces being universes. It's just a word association.

 

[Solacis]

I'm probably biased, seeing as my numerous interactions with them have only ever been times when they're being less than reasonable, and I've only ever heard bad things, but I don't recall either Matthew or Efficiente ever being positive examples of critical thinking. Personally, I don't care for either of their opinions, especially since Matt has to my knowledge made zero contributions throughout this entire CRT beyond agreeing with Dargoo.

Dargoo's response would be appreciated though, yes.

 

[00potato]

Ah yes, great critical thinking skills at work here.

 

[Solacis]

There's no evidence to palaces being universes. It's just a word association.

Again. That is a problem of semantics, not necessarily logic. At this point, it's valid either way, so it's more or less a pure difference in opinion considering there are no wiki standards to point in either direction. Which is entirely why we're putting this to a vote among active contributors and members who can be trusted to be unbiased and reasonable.

 

[00potato]

Look, if it’s just semantics, make it a “possibly.” It’s a good compromise so we don’t waste seven more pages arguing this semantical nonsense.

 

[Everything12]

That is not how we treat possible or likely rating at all, those ratings are for things that have been Accepted, but the evidence itself leaves room for interpretation or the staff who accepted it are still unsure. It's not for when theirs a deadlock between people who accept and the people who reject a CRT.

 

[Solacis]

That is not how we treat possible or likely rating at all, those ratings are for things that have been Accepted, but the evidence itself leaves room for interpretation or the staff who accepted it are still unsure. It's not for when theirs a deadlock between people who accept and the people who reject a CRT.

The Low 2-C Palaces are logically sound and are supported by the majority of scans. The only actual issue is that the interpretation can be thrown off severely if we posit the idea that the phrases "parallel world" and "alternate reality" don't necessarily refer to universes, despite direct allusion to the many worlds theory and many allusions to hindu concepts of the universe.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It really and truly is just semantics and interpretation, but that’s just my view of it. We’ll wait for more mods regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Ah yes, great critical thinking skills at work here.

Stop with the snarkiness please. I have seen Eficiente and Matthew recurrently display high-level critical thinking elsewhere, so I do trust their abilities in this regard. The problem is that Matthew at least does not always make any effort in his responses.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, so.

All Palace Rulers are Low 2-C at minimum via scaling to the size of their Palaces.

The argument here is that Palaces are reflections of the real world as a whole, including external areas that are not immediately warped by their owner's worldview, and the first scan showing that this can extend into outer space-like areas is supposed to prove that the Palaces mimic the universe in general as opposed to just their immediate surroundings, yes?

If that's the case, then I'd be fine with saying the Palaces are Universal in scale, though I don't exactly understand why that would be Low 2-C and not just 3-A, given how the difference between the observable, spatial universe and the spacetime continuum as a whole is... Well, pretty big, and I'd want more evidence that Cognition extends this far.

Umr-at-Tawil from Persona 2 Eternal Punishment scales to the size of the entire Collective Unconscious, which is a countless 2-B structure.

The scans just seem to indicate that Umr's death would dissolve the boundaries between the individual consciousness of the characters and the collective unconscious of humanity as a whole, hence why they refer primarily to the boundaries "between the collective unconscious and your human knowledge," and to their individuality being lost should those cease to exist. All of that stuff seems to be talking about destruction on the mental level, not some multiversal event that will destroy reality.

 

[Solacis]

It is a mental-level sort of destruction, but the way the CU functions is that the "mental level" of existence is more "real" than the physical level. The CU itself is its own kind of existence, where all of the things that exist in cognition can be seen in "corporeal" form. It's difficult to explain so forgive me if I ramble.

The best example I can think of is: say Azathoth dreams up the Cthulhu Mythos, but the contents of the Cthulhu Mythos decides what's "real" to an awoken Azathoth's reality.

The Collective Unconscious is like that. What sentient beings believe are real becomes real in the CU, and by becoming real in the CU, it becomes real in the reality in which the sentient beings live in. All of existence is inherently tied to the CU, and we know from the Persona Q series and P3P that the entire multiverse (alternate timelines, parallel worlds, different realities, etc.) is contained within and connected through the CU. Gods, Shadows and Personas are all formed from the same thing that composes the CU, and Personas can damage the real world, and the Gods are physical in the real world based on how Elizabeth suplexed Erebus into the surface of the real-world Moon.

Tl;dr The CU is real in its own way, despite being a mental plane. Just look at Palaces. Those are mental planes too. Multiversal destruction through the CU is still multiversal destruction.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I am aware of all that, yes. My issue is that the scan itself doesn't state that Umr's death would lead to the physical world's destruction, just the destruction of the boundaries of the Collective Unconscious, which would in turn cause the characters to lose their individuality and have their consciousness dissolved into that of humanity's. As far as I see, the 2-B statements are all done while in reference to the physical world, so why would that feat scale to them?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If that's the case, then I'd be fine with saying the Palaces are Universal in scale, though I don't exactly understand why that would be Low 2-C and not just 3-A, given how the difference between the observable, spatial universe and the spacetime continuum as a whole is... Well, pretty big, and I'd want more evidence that Cognition extends this far.

This is actually proven by Yaldabaoth merging Mementos (a Low 2-C structure) with the universe, as to which Mementos is a Palace. Since Palace’s are reflections of the real world, it should also go to show that it’ll extend past the observable universe. It isn’t the first time Cognition has created entirely new space-times, as Maki created another world via her own will, and Maruki created a new one based on the desires of the Phantom Thieves, etc.

 

[Solacis]

I am aware of all that, yes. My issue is that the scan itself doesn't state that Umr's death would lead to the physical world's destruction, just the destruction of the boundaries of the Collective Unconscious, which would in turn cause the characters to lose their individuality and have their consciousness dissolved into that of humanity's. As far as I see, the 2-B statements are all done while in reference to the physical world, so why would that feat scale to them?

It's because all of existence depends on the existence of the CU. The destruction of the CU would mean the destruction of the concepts that make up the physical world, since the physical world became a subset of the CU the moment the CU was formed. The destruction of the CU being synonymous with the destruction of the physical world is also outright stated by Virochana in a scan I posted earlier in this thread. Gimme a sec to find it.

Edit: Here it is.



Here, Virochana equates "Atman" (the soul) and "Brahman" (the universe).



Here, he states that to deny that the two are one in the same is to deny the existence of both; thus returning everything to nothingness.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ultima Reality does make good points.

Also, Solacis is honestly right. His post isn't meant to attack anyone, but just to give constructive criticism. But neither one of the aforementioned staff have been the most contributive nor reasonably polite as of late, and there has been a lot of complains from pretty much half the other staff put together for both of them. Just some details worth noting.

But anyway, I'm more neutral and open-minded. Still leaning a little bit toward's Grath's evaluations but taking Ultima Reality's input into account seems reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Ultima and Solacis both make good points, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew has not been misbehaving lately though, as far as I am aware. He just has a tendency to not consistently make an effort.

Also, Eficiente has not exactly misbehaved, just been recurrently impatient and slightly rude. It isn't like he is going around cursing at and insulting people, or somesuch. He also seems to listen to reprimands.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Not to derail, but I didn’t forget him saying I called Dargoo mentally ill during my tense moment—which, I didn’t.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he is entitled to remember wrong and make some mistakes, if he is generally making an effort to help out.

Also, AKM sama will talk with him in private about trying to shape up his behaviour.