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Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
- Status
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Yes, but the timeless void isn’t the thing, it’s the fact that they traveled to temporal dimension (universe).
This isn’t the only time they did this, because Yaldabaoth sealed the Velvet Room in Mementos. Mementos is a separate dimension, and the Real World is also a separate dimension, and Yaldabaoth breached through the Velvet Room (where time & space don’t apply), which exists between them. He did this with sheer speed.
This isn’t the only time they did this, because Yaldabaoth sealed the Velvet Room in Mementos. Mementos is a separate dimension, and the Real World is also a separate dimension, and Yaldabaoth breached through the Velvet Room (where time & space don’t apply), which exists between them. He did this with sheer speed.
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I see no evidence of being able to move so swiftly that their attacks land before they start to move, which is required for immeasurable speed.
In fact, what I saw of your submitted scans did not mention anything about sheer speed allowing them dimensional travel, rather than the inherent properties of a timeless disconnected place, for which the mechanics tend to differ from verse to verse, which is part of the reason why we do not use them anymore.
Please thoroughly read our Speed page, and stop trying to push through highly exaggerated statistics that are not supported by it.
In fact, what I saw of your submitted scans did not mention anything about sheer speed allowing them dimensional travel, rather than the inherent properties of a timeless disconnected place, for which the mechanics tend to differ from verse to verse, which is part of the reason why we do not use them anymore.
Please thoroughly read our Speed page, and stop trying to push through highly exaggerated statistics that are not supported by it.
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What?? When has that been that the requirement? I’ve literally never heard that before. That doesn’t even sound like immeasurable, that sounds like a blitz. What even is the definition of immeasurable at this point, I’ve read it over and over and it genuinely makes no sense, transcending space & time doesn’t work, apparently traveling to other temporal dimensions through sheer speed (which Glass told me)isn’t, I don’t get it what is?
Ant, Yaldabaoth created the Metaverse. The Velvet Room’s most iconic staple is it existing between dream & reality, mind & matter, meaning it exists between universes. Yaldabaoth merged the two and traveled between them (the REAL WORLD), and that was before the events of P5. And if the mechanics very, why not make it case by case?
Again, please stop with saying it’s an exaggeration just because you disagree, I’m trying to make sense of how it works, since I’m getting multiple conflicting answers.
Ant, Yaldabaoth created the Metaverse. The Velvet Room’s most iconic staple is it existing between dream & reality, mind & matter, meaning it exists between universes. Yaldabaoth merged the two and traveled between them (the REAL WORLD), and that was before the events of P5. And if the mechanics very, why not make it case by case?
Again, please stop with saying it’s an exaggeration just because you disagree, I’m trying to make sense of how it works, since I’m getting multiple conflicting answers.
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I think topics about trading blows with Temporal Omnipresent foes should have its own thread. I'm aware there are currently some inconsistencies on various profiles for various verses like some assume those Omnipresent characters have Immeasurable reactions and combat speed via perceiving past, present, and future as just the present while others don't. But even so.
I agree with Schnee regarding Immeasurable speed for now.
I agree with Schnee regarding Immeasurable speed for now.
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It isn't just about me disagreeing. As far as I recall, we clearly worked out our rules so they should only include cases of being demonstrated to transcend linear time via speed alone, so a character can travel anywhere and anywhen faster than instantly by arriving to a location in question before they even started.
Lingering/remaining errors in older profiles do not change that.
Lingering/remaining errors in older profiles do not change that.
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Bump.
ShrekAnakin
He/Him- 860
- 85
Can someone gimmie a quick tl;dr on why Immeasurable got rejected?
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It’s currently not accepted on wiki standards
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Yeah, moving in a timeless void doesn’t, so I want to know if moving in a spaceless one does.
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A spaceless void has s = 0. v = s/t, so it should not scale to speed. I have already answered this question repeatedly elsewhere.
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I remember Kukui had something about that, but it’s whatever, we’ve dragged this on long enough. Regardless, I don’t know if Dargoo still actually disagrees, he hasn’t commented.
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I think at this point it seems that 2-C Palaces has more support for it than not. The only other major thing is if Umr scales to 2-B or not and who scales to him. So basically waiting for any mod not already given their opinion on the thread to disagree with 2-C palaces (otherwise this should go through just fine), and official pronouncement on if what Umr does actually constitutes 2-B before any more discussion can go on. Most of the other issues were essentially agreed upon more or less.
If there is disagreeance with the other minor things then the minor things can also afford to sit in limbo whereas major things like 2-C palaces and 2-B Umr are much more integral to the verse and should probably reach some conclusion.
@Antvasima
If there is disagreeance with the other minor things then the minor things can also afford to sit in limbo whereas major things like 2-C palaces and 2-B Umr are much more integral to the verse and should probably reach some conclusion.
@Antvasima
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Can somebody experienced please write down a summary of the arguments regarding what still needs to be discussed here, along with a list of all the staff members who have commented here earlier, so I can send notifications to them afterwards?
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I will see if I can make the time to compile together the major arguments into a post sometime soon. HS is finished up for the year here, so I'll have considerably more time for wiki work, and likely time for this.
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I’ll likely do it myself soon, since I really want this thread done.
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Low 2-C Palaces.
Arguments for: Palace’s are stated to be a mirror of the real world by various reliable sources, with no discernible evidence against this, with various characters saying things outside of the heavily distorted distortion being just as normal. This is further proven by moons, suns, and entire star clusters appearing in the sky. The word “world”, “dimension”, and “reality”, is often used to denote “universe” when it comes to contextual realms like this, with characters such as Marie, Databooks, Morgana, Elizabeth, Philemon, Maruki, who are all incredibly knowledgeable on the Metaverse.
Arguments against: We don't know what size palaces are, world doesn't denote size, so there's nothing for us to assume size off of besides what we can actually see and demonstrably prove. (From Dargoo) World doesn’t always mean universe, and requires context.
2-B Umr-at-Tawil & Scaling:
Arguments for: Umr passively and casually holds up countless realities with his very existence, even whilst fighting the P2 Cast.
Arguments against: We have vague or no standards for sustaining feats, this is no longer a Persona-verse problem, as other characters have sustaining feats as well (D&D, 682).
Immeasurable Speed:
Denied and getting removed anyways.
Lifting Strength:
Unanimously agreed on. However, Dargoo believes Mada’s universal lifting strength should be held off on till Low 2-C is dealt with.
Limitless Mental Stamina:
Denied due to extrapolation and not enough evidence.
Range:
Denied due to no reason to assume all spells have the same range as Cosmic Flare & Morning Star.
Yaldabaoth mindhax:
Unanimously agreed on.
Arguments for: Palace’s are stated to be a mirror of the real world by various reliable sources, with no discernible evidence against this, with various characters saying things outside of the heavily distorted distortion being just as normal. This is further proven by moons, suns, and entire star clusters appearing in the sky. The word “world”, “dimension”, and “reality”, is often used to denote “universe” when it comes to contextual realms like this, with characters such as Marie, Databooks, Morgana, Elizabeth, Philemon, Maruki, who are all incredibly knowledgeable on the Metaverse.
Arguments against: We don't know what size palaces are, world doesn't denote size, so there's nothing for us to assume size off of besides what we can actually see and demonstrably prove. (From Dargoo) World doesn’t always mean universe, and requires context.
2-B Umr-at-Tawil & Scaling:
Arguments for: Umr passively and casually holds up countless realities with his very existence, even whilst fighting the P2 Cast.
Arguments against: We have vague or no standards for sustaining feats, this is no longer a Persona-verse problem, as other characters have sustaining feats as well (D&D, 682).
Immeasurable Speed:
Denied and getting removed anyways.
Lifting Strength:
Unanimously agreed on. However, Dargoo believes Mada’s universal lifting strength should be held off on till Low 2-C is dealt with.
Limitless Mental Stamina:
Denied due to extrapolation and not enough evidence.
Range:
Denied due to no reason to assume all spells have the same range as Cosmic Flare & Morning Star.
Yaldabaoth mindhax:
Unanimously agreed on.
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- Thread starter
- #587
Pretty much every knowledgeable staff member has already commented here.
Low 2-C Palaces just comes down to which side of the argument makes more sense to outside viewers, since it's quite literally semantics at this point, as opposed to a matter of logic. That is to say, it should just come down to a vote.
2-B comes down to wiki standards on sustaining feats, which is a discussion outside the bounds of this CRT. As far as current standards go, from what I know, Umr-at-Tawil should qualify. So until such time as said standards are revised (again, assuming they are what I think they are) then I say we just move on with 2-B and downgrade in the event that the standards are changed by a proper wiki-wide CRT.
Low 2-C Palaces just comes down to which side of the argument makes more sense to outside viewers, since it's quite literally semantics at this point, as opposed to a matter of logic. That is to say, it should just come down to a vote.
2-B comes down to wiki standards on sustaining feats, which is a discussion outside the bounds of this CRT. As far as current standards go, from what I know, Umr-at-Tawil should qualify. So until such time as said standards are revised (again, assuming they are what I think they are) then I say we just move on with 2-B and downgrade in the event that the standards are changed by a proper wiki-wide CRT.
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No, it really is just semantics. I believe staff & neutral active parties should decide on this.
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- Thread starter
- #590
Hold on a mo. I just realized something and now I feel stupid.
Mementos is already Low 2-C, isn't it?
Mementos is a Palace. The only reason we didn't make it so that every Palace was Low 2-C too was because, previously, we only scaled Rulers to their distortion. We know now that that's no longer the case from the various scans clarifying that everything outside the distortion is also part of the Ruler's cognition. Mementos itself already proves that Palaces perfectly mirror the physical universe because Yaldabaoth flat-out fuses the both of them together. The reason Yaldy was the only Low 2-C out of the Rulers was because he was the only one whose control/distortion encompassed the entire reality that Mementos exists in.
Palaces directly mirror Reality. We know the extent of this mirroring from Mementos, which is Low 2-C via being large enough to have been fused with the physical universe. Now that we have scans directly stating that Palaces also encompass everything outside the visible distortion, then shouldn't all Palaces be very clearly Low 2-C?
Mementos is already Low 2-C, isn't it?
Mementos is a Palace. The only reason we didn't make it so that every Palace was Low 2-C too was because, previously, we only scaled Rulers to their distortion. We know now that that's no longer the case from the various scans clarifying that everything outside the distortion is also part of the Ruler's cognition. Mementos itself already proves that Palaces perfectly mirror the physical universe because Yaldabaoth flat-out fuses the both of them together. The reason Yaldy was the only Low 2-C out of the Rulers was because he was the only one whose control/distortion encompassed the entire reality that Mementos exists in.
Palaces directly mirror Reality. We know the extent of this mirroring from Mementos, which is Low 2-C via being large enough to have been fused with the physical universe. Now that we have scans directly stating that Palaces also encompass everything outside the visible distortion, then shouldn't all Palaces be very clearly Low 2-C?
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I would agree, but you know this.
Especially since it’s already established Yaldabaoth is Low 2-C via having control over the physical & cognitive universe (literally on his profile), which would confirm Mementos being Low 2-C. Of course we know now that Mementos is comparable to the CU in size, but point still stands, even Yaldabaoths pre-revision profile supports this.
Especially since it’s already established Yaldabaoth is Low 2-C via having control over the physical & cognitive universe (literally on his profile), which would confirm Mementos being Low 2-C. Of course we know now that Mementos is comparable to the CU in size, but point still stands, even Yaldabaoths pre-revision profile supports this.
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Dargoo, Cal, DMUA, Matt, Dragon, Grath, Schnee, Eficiente.
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Thank you.
@Dargoo_Faust @The_real_cal_howard @DMUA @Matthew_Schroeder @DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath @Schnee_One @Eficiente
What do you think that we should do here?
@Dargoo_Faust @The_real_cal_howard @DMUA @Matthew_Schroeder @DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath @Schnee_One @Eficiente
What do you think that we should do here?
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Sorry, I meant Dragonmaster.
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My thoughts having really changed since I was last contacted, so I recall saying that I think DarkGrath makes more sense overall.
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So you’re leaning towards agreement on Low 2-C Palaces, neutral on 2-B, agree in Multiversal range for the VR Attendants & Gods, lifting strength for Class M & immeasurable, lean towards agreement in Umr lifting strength, immeasurable speed is getting removed, disagree with normal range, agree with Yaldabaoth mindhax, and disagree with limitless mental stamina.
That’s what Grath noted.
That’s what Grath noted.
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