Yhwach Hax Downgrade (small)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

His argument is that the past's deletion means everything ever affected by the events of the past is also undone. The Type 1 Acausal would be, in effect, experiencing several lives all at once while every undone action spawns a new timeline as well as the original timeline. This is demonstrably not the case, however.

This also isnt true.

The Type 1 Acasual wouldnt be effected by any changes in time as they are immune to it. That what Type 1 Acasuality is.

So for instance, if im a Type 1 Acasual and someone goes into the past to kill me as a baby, every action in the past involving me gets paradoxed and undone, but my present self remains unaffected by those changes.

 

[Xulrev]

@Kukui

So the past existed and they remember it, bypassing the temporal lock on it. That's what I've been arguing for

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
So the past existed and they remember it, bypassing the temporal lock on it. That's what I've been arguing for

But the past doesnt need to exist for a Type 1 Acasual to remember it though. Thats the problem.

 

[Xulrev]

This also isnt true.

The Type 1 Acasual wouldnt be effected by any changes in time as they are immune to it. That what Type 1 Acasuality is.

So for instance, if im a Type 1 Acasual and someone goes into the past to kill me as a baby, every action in the past involving me gets paradoxed and undone, but my present self remains unaffected by those changes.

The Type 1 cannot be in a timeline wherein the past's removal of events leads to them coexisting with a Type 2 by definition under this argumentation, however, since such an event relies on the 'deleted' past occuring to bring them to the current point in time, implying not deletion, but it being locked.

They simply ignore the lock on it. We are arguing in circles and the definition needs changed, I do believe we actually agree here and this is going absurdly off-topic still.

 

[Xulrev]

But the past doesnt need to exist for a Type 1 Acasual to remember it though. Thats the problem.

It does. You can't remember 'nothing'. You remember 'something' that others simply cannot.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It does. You can't remember 'nothing'. You remember 'something' that others simply cannot.

Because you are a Type 1 Acasual whos unaffected by the past being erased.

Therefore, you are able to remember the deleted past, even after its erased. It doesnt mean the past is still existing, it just means your memory of it can still exist after the past was erased. Thats what Type 1 Acasuality grants you.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I am more than a little bit confused by this thread. Tell me if I got this right

OP's point: Type 2 Acausals exist solely within 'the moment of now' and have no presence in 'the moments before' or 'the moments after' literally meaning that 'interactions with the T2 in the moments before' and 'interactions with the T2 in the moments after' do not exist. Therefore, because non acausals are able to remember a prior event that resulted from the actions of a alleged T2, that means that said T2 existed in the past and therefore cannot be T2. Thereby disqualifying Mimihagi from the category due to being a recognized as a small deity by common people who should have absolutely nothing resembling any acausality.

The opposition: Type 2 Acausals can only be interacted with in 'the moment of now' and any interactions with the T2 in 'the moments before' or 'the moments after' are removed from any and all interference, but are still remembered as happened because the presence and actions of the T2 in 'the moments before' still exist, are just protected. Therefore Mimihagi settles comfortably into this designation from a plethora of evidence.

This about sums it up?

 

[AppleLord]

Everyone in Bleach having acasuality type 1 is ridiculous as everyone being a God of Death a.k.a. Shinigami.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I am more than a little bit confused by this thread. Tell me if I got this right
OP's point: Type 2 Acausals exist solely within 'the moment of now' and have no presence in 'the moments before' or 'the moments after' literally meaning that 'interactions with the T2 in the moments before' and 'interactions with the T2 in the moments after' do not exist. Therefore, because non acausals are able to remember a prior event that resulted from the actions of a alleged T2, that means that said T2 existed in the past and therefore cannot be T2. Thereby disqualifying Mimihagi from the category due to being a recognized as a small deity by common people who should have absolutely nothing resembling any acausality.

The opposition: Type 2 Acausals can only be interacted with in 'the moment of now' and any interactions with the T2 in 'the moments before' or 'the moments after' are removed from any and all interference, but are still remembered as happened because the presence and actions of the T2 in 'the moments before' still exist, are just protected. Therefore Mimihagi settles comfortably into this designation from a plethora of evidence.

This about sums it up?

Yeah you pretty much summed up what both sides are arguing.

 

[Link_Eternal]

So, I think someone brough this up earlier in the thread, but under the literal explanation of Type 2, if someone with Type 2 is entirely unable to interact with anyone who lacks their own acausality.

For example: A normal person meets a Type 2 and says "Hello", an instant later, that greeting did not happen, because the T2 does not exist in the past (the moments before to reference). There for the normal person meets the T2 for the first time again....and again, resulting in a process that looks a bit like this, "Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello" and so on because they cannot progress beyond that first meeting, if even that much.

This is the impression I'm getting of how T2 works.

 

[AppleLord]

So, I think someone brough this up earlier in the thread, but under the literal explanation of Type 2, if someone with Type 2 is entirely unable to interact with anyone who lacks their own acausality.

For example: A normal person meets a Type 2 and says "Hello", an instant later, that greeting did not happen, because the T2 does not exist in the past (the moments before to reference). There for the normal person meets the T2 for the first time again....and again, resulting in a process that looks a bit like this, "Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello" and so on because they cannot progress beyond that first meeting, if even that much.

This is the impression I'm getting of how T2 works.

Which doesn't make sense because there's no single instant that happens unless you're Sternritter Lee the "Vanishing Point" which died and Yhwach also absorbed his powers. Lee could vanished from someone's memories when he deleted his existence therefore Yhwach still has Acasuality after absorbing him.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I mean, that would just prove that Mimihagi doesn't have Type 2 if that is indeed the meaning behind having Type 2. And while I don't doubt that there are characters that are like that, I'm not so sure that all of the characters given T2 fit the bill.

 

[AppleLord]

This whole thread makes no sense, Acasuality type 2 makes no sense, Mimihagi, Yhwach and Soul King having Acasuality type 2 makes no sense.

Yhwach, Soul King, The Quincy race, The Worlds, Life & Death concepts all of this were born during Mimihagi's PAST, so therefore they should all disappear into nonexistent because Mimihagi took a will of its own and became the embodiment of "Stagnation/Stillness" in the future.

There are two options:

1. Remove Acasuality from Mimihagi, Yhwach and the Soul King.

Or

2. Find another type of Acasuality that fits the bill for this characters.

I realice what OP is trying to say and I agree it makes no sense for those characters to have this power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So, I think someone brough this up earlier in the thread, but under the literal explanation of Type 2, if someone with Type 2 is entirely unable to interact with anyone who lacks their own acausality.
For example: A normal person meets a Type 2 and says "Hello", an instant later, that greeting did not happen, because the T2 does not exist in the past (the moments before to reference). There for the normal person meets the T2 for the first time again....and again, resulting in a process that looks a bit like this, "Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello" and so on because they cannot progress beyond that first meeting, if even that much.

This is the impression I'm getting of how T2 works.

I....actually didnt think of this point yet. Going by this, this makes Type 2 Acasuality for both Yhwach and Mimihagi, like, ridiculously inconsistent even more.

 

[Xulrev]

Going by it is what makes Type 2 Acausality absurdly-poorly-worded for the wiki in general moreso; that's what I argued for originally and pointed out in my first few comments on it, Kukui.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Going by it is what makes Type 2 Acausality absurdly-poorly-worded for the wiki in general moreso; that's what I argued for originally and pointed out in my first few comments on it, Kukui.

Your argument was hinging more on it being generalized though. That I disagree with because this problem only applies to those who are non-acasuals.

A Type 1 Acasual would be unaffected by this.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yhwach and Madoka aren't the only characters on this wiki with it, I expect you'll go verify the other characters as well?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yhwach and Madoka aren't the only characters on this wiki with it, I expect you'll go verify the other characters as well?

Actually yes because in my Acasuality thread, 2 other characters were called out on whether or not they should have it as well.

 

[Xulrev]

I still am of the opinion that Type 2 Acausality just needs reworked and still stand strong that it is fine to remove from Yhwach/Mimihagi based on that, for the record.

So I can agree to disagree on some of the nuances with you here Kukui, but I do agree with you in that regard somewhat and support your OP in that aspect.

Also: I appreciate the extended dialogue. It's been fun, legitimately.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

This I agree with.

And I have no problem with re-analyzing Type 2 Acasuality as a whole since I made a thread on the topic anyway before I made this downgrade thread for Yhwach. If you want to express further concerns, want to go there and do so?

 

[AppleLord]

Acasuality shouldn't be remove just from Yhwach, but Mimihagi and Rei-O himself. The worlds existing is enough of a contradiction for this beings to have such power, since it's their past and it still exists.

 

[Link_Eternal]

We still need a way to classify their characteristics, because as an absolute minimum, Mimihagi does not exist in the future. Or is that simply an immunity to Fate Manip (or something else).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bump. We need to conclude this.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Mimihagi being immune to the almighty would just be resistance to precog

 

[AppleLord]

Bump. We need to conclude this.

We either remove acasulity from Yhwach, Mimihagi, and Rei-O or dicuss if another type of acasuality fits these characters. None should have type 2 because each one of this characters have a past which is still remmeber by everyone.

• Yhwach you already explained.

• Rei-O is remmebered by Ichibei.

• Mimihagi is a legend in Rukongai and Ukitake remembers his past when Mimihagi saved him.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Type 1 or 3 fits better imo.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I don't think anyone ever tried to paradox them so type 1 doesn't really work

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Personally, I can honestly see an argument for Mimihagi to have Type 1. But its debatable as, like Paul said, none of them have ever been tried to be paradoxed before.

Whats Type 3 Acasuality again?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Basically Lavos

 

[AppleLord]

Yhwach fits Acausality type 1: (He wasn't affected by Tsukishima's Past Manipulation & Orihime's Casuality Manipulation. He also knew this would happened and aloud it.)

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

Mimihagi and Rei-o fit Acausality type 4:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Except tsukishima's past manipulation did work

That's how orihime was able to fix Ichigo's bankai

You don't get the acasuality type 4 from having those resistances, it gives those to you. You need a statement or evidence that they don't operate in the normal system of causality

 

[AppleLord]

Except tsukishima's past manipulation did work
That's how orihime was able to fix Ichigo's bankai

You don't get the acasuality type 4 from having those resistances, it gives those to you. You need a statement or evidence that they don't operate in the normal system of causality

Yhwach gets both Acasuality type 1 & 4 from Mimihagi and the Soul King. Those powers didn't work on Yhwach since he still had the powers he stole from Ichigo they were not remove from him the moment Ichigo's Bankai was fixed. Yhwach knew this so he wouldn't had allow it if he was gonna lose them. There's also the light novel mentioning that Ichigo regained his powers over time, after Yhwach killed and sealed away as an undead.

 

[Paul_Frank]

None of what you said at all supports either type 1 or 4

Why would Yhwach lose the powers he stole from Ichigo just because the later got his sword fixed

Yhwach knowing that would happen doesn't mean anything either, that just means he knew Tsukishima would use his power on Ichigo to help the sword be fixed. Ichigo regaining this powers overtime also again doesn't support acasuality for anyone

 

[AppleLord]

None of what you said at all supports either type 1 or 4
Why would Yhwach lose the powers he stole from Ichigo just because the later got his sword fixed

Yhwach knowing that would happen doesn't mean anything either, that just means he knew Tsukishima would use his power on Ichigo to help the sword be fixed. Ichigo regaining this powers overtime also again doesn't support acasuality for anyone

I was under the impression that you knew that Mimihagi was an acasual per his embodimment. So, I was talking post-argument since Yhwach already absorbed Mimihagi.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Mimihagi being acasual is iffy on it's own though

Being the embodiment of stagnation doesn't mean you have no past, considering multiple people remember him

 

[AppleLord]

Mimihagi being acasual is iffy on it's own though
Being the embodiment of stagnation doesn't mean you have no past, considering multiple people remember him

So why was this thread made again?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Because that was only brought up mid way through the thread

The thread was basically "Even if mimihagi is type 2, absorbing him doesn't give you type 2"

Then later in the thread it was brought up that embodying stagnation doesn't mean you have no past and no future, at the best it can mean no future

 

[AppleLord]

Because that was only brought up mid way through the thread

The thread was basically "Even if mimihagi is type 2, absorbing him doesn't give you type 2"

Then later in the thread it was brought up that embodying stagnation doesn't mean you have no past and no future, at the best it can mean no future

Why? How? Because?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Did you read the thread?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I agree that Yhwach doesnt have Type 1.

Tsukishima never tried to use Past Manipulation on Yhwach himself, he used it on Ichigo to change the past where Yhwach didnt break Ichigo's Zangetsu. If Yhwach was a Type 1, Tsukishima wouldnt have been able to change the past and restore the sword.