Yhwach, Destroyer of Worlds (Bleach God Tier Revision)

[Damage3245]

@Tyri456; I'm currently considering the "At least 5-B, possibly 3-A to Low 2-C" rating for full-power Yhwach based on the arguments given in the OP and further up this page.

The question of Aizen & Ichigo scaling to that though is a lot more questionable and that is something that I would want to discuss more later on, even if I did accept the former rating for Yhwach.

 

[YukaSama4]

I think many people here too agree that the scaling needs a discussion yes

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Damage3245 Seeing as the OP broached the subject of god tier scaling, full power Yhwach and Prime SK both scale but what version of Ichigo would you say scales? Do we introduce a new key for Ichigo, simply scale him from HoS and on it only with TB?

 

[Ovy7]

I don't see why at least Ichigo won't scale considering all the stuff about him being perfect for the SK place and the primary candidate (excluding Yhwach) and the fact he was strong enough to one-shot the SK Yhwach that was gonna destroy and remake the worlds.

Aizen is more iffy IMO, but I think some argument could maybe be make for him too.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see why at least Ichigo won't scale considering all the stuff about him being perfect for the SK place and the primary candidate (excluding Yhwach) and the fact he was strong enough to one-shot the SK Yhwach that was gonna destroy and remake the worlds.

Ichigo had the potential to become the Soul King, but the same thing was said for Ginjo. Simply having the potential doesn't make him Prime Soul King tier.

His two feats against Soul King Yhwach here and here, I think are in fact not that straightforward for scaling.

The first one was when Yhwach was assured of his victory and had let his guard down. He didn't have a protective shield of Reiatsu around him (which was instead in the surrounding area, destroying the Seireitei) and with his guard lowered. I would not assume that his passive durability is equal to his AP.

And for the second one, it was in the moment when Yhwach had lost his powers and was just beginning to regain them. I'd say his durability would be unknown here. He obviously didn't regain his full powers because he would have regained the Almighty which would have rewritten his death.

 

[YukaSama4]

The first one was when Yhwach was assured of his victory and had let his guard down. He didn't have a protective shield of Reiatsu around him (which was instead in the surrounding area, destroying the Seireitei) and with his guard lowered. I would not assume that his passive durability is equal to his AP.

Wasnt he spreading his energy there? I mean he smh was in the process of doing the feat he even said that now you can rest because SS and WoTL are about to disappear iirc or something in the same meaning

 

[AnonymousBlank]

As the OP established, you need to be durable enough to use your own power and Yhwach was in the middle of flexing his power around which means his reiatsu was not lowered in any sense if the word.

The second is a lie as Yhwach had already regained his power as seen with his cloak having already returned.

 

[Purgy]

The first one was when Yhwach was assured of his victory and had let his guard down. He didn't have a protective shield of Reiatsu around him (which was instead in the surrounding area, destroying the Seireitei) and with his guard lowered. I would not assume that his passive durability is equal to his AP.

Letting your guard down doesn't drop your durability by an infinite amount, even ignoring the fact that Yhwach was hit with two attacks, the first one to impale him and the second to cut him in half, why wouldn't he have been on guard for the second? Yhwach literally looks behind him before Ichigo cuts him in half, so to say he's off guard is purely headcanon.

And as you know, Bleach characters are never truly vulnerable due to constantly leaking Reiatsu as stated by Kenpachi early in the manga, so unless you believe this passive Reiatsu to be a degree of infinity lower than his regular Durability, then no.

At worst, Ichigo would just downscale, not be rated infinitely lower.

 

[Tyri456]

@Tyri456; I'm currently considering the "At least 5-B, possibly 3-A to Low 2-C" rating for full-power Yhwach based on the arguments given in the OP and further up this page.

The question of Aizen & Ichigo scaling to that though is a lot more questionable and that is something that I would want to discuss more later on, even if I did accept the former rating for Yhwach.

You are against the new key for Ichigo?

 

[Ovy7]

As for the 2nd scan posted by Damage, while Yhwach didn't had his full power when Ichigo killed him (showed by the fact that he didn't had the Almigthy returned), his power had still returned in an amount that was enough for his corpse to still sustain the entire cosmology and later be used by Ichibe as the new Soul King, as it was shown in the OP or by someone here (can't remember exactly who posted the scan from the novel).

 

[PrinceofPein]

Letting your guard down doesn't drop your durability by an infinite amount

The same could be said, absorbing 2 high 6As power won't increase your AP by infinite amount

 

[Purgy]

The same could be said, absorbing 2 high 6As power won't increase your AP by infinite amount

They're High 6-A's because that's what the people running the wiki think they should be, them being High 6-A isn't a fact stated by Kubo, it's just how people think they should be rated as, their ratings aren't factual.

If we based things on how I think they should be, then Yhwach would be 3-A/Low 2-C in his SK absorbed key instead of starting at his last

You can only blame the people trying to refute the OP for such an illogical compromise, Yhwach being 3-A/Low 2-C in his second to last key makes the most sense imo but I don't run things here.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Context provided by Novels​

Spoiler

Ill repost my earlier responses:

Tokinada's statement on the boundary removal

Spoiler

Tokinada here is stating that if ichigo not Defeated Yhwach the boundary would have been destroyed. Reio is not mentioned in this scene. Here tokinada is expressing displeasure that no one konw of ichigo's accomplishment and will never know.

If it's reference to Reio dying, recall ichigo failed miserably at that, twice. he killed reio and couldn't stop mimihagi's absorption as well.

Contextually this is referiing to ichigo's final fight with yhwach, not prior events.

Likewise, 684 shows this event was going top be caused by pure energy

Yhwach's plan argument

His original intention on panel is letting Reio die, sure, After that though, Askin makes it clear yhwach will destroy all three worlds

In chapter 680, yhwach performs his mass absorption. It is here clear by his dialogue that only can he achieve his goal directly:

While under kyoka suigetsu, he demonstrates yet again its via an energy aoe spreading outward

Is this Consistent for Yhwach?​

Spoiler

Just going to respond rather than quote for this do to the length:
It was never a case of "feels right", but rather indications left by both the novel and manga. In hindsight this section isnt the most important, to that i agree.

I did note it could be either or for yhwach being the son or a fragment, The manga calls him the "child of", so there is that.

I will agree this quote doesnt objectively indicate "100% of prime reio's power", however it cant just mean only WSK, as he had mimihagi's power and all of gerard's power.

As for "low 2c pieces cant become lower", this happens all the time in fiction. Higher dimensional beings even cant get nerfed to lower tiers. Prime reio was left horrendously depowered by what the 5 families did to him. The piece individually can very in power (pernida or fragments in the novel). However we rate WSK as unknown alongside mimihagi's ap. I'm not arguing gerard individually is low 2-c, I'm arguing that sk being more complete than he is now isn't tier 6. We are shown what those 3 pieces together in yhwach's body can do, which is his merge feat.

Shikai kenpachi beating a single fragment is a non factor, its a singular piece only.

Environmental Destruction and other Counters​

Spoiler

to qoute Imade here:

"Now that it (the Soul King) is gone, not just Soul Society, but all that is connected to it (the Soul King), the Dangai, Hueco Mundo and the World of the Living it will all collapse."

Notice that the first "it" is referring to the Soul King himself.

Reio is the previous subject, the continuing sentence follows the previous subject unless changed, which it doesn't since it doesn't change the subject as the sentence continues with "it"; therefore, referring to the previous subject since it is continuing.

Also, the following sentence literally begins "Now that it is gone," which can only refer to the Soul King. The Soul King is gone because Ichigo killed it, Soul Society isn't gone yet and it's literally following after the comma mentioning Soul Society. Soul Society isn't "it" as it is not the subject that is continued and is even mentioned after the comma.

the subject in the line is the Soul King and the portion "not just the Soul Society" is a clause of additional information.

Subjects don't change unless the verb changes.
------------------------------------------------------------

Plus, Hueco Mundo isn't directly connected to the Soul Society. There a few statements of it being between ss and wotl (though this isnt shown by kisuke's inverse model), but it isnt dimensionally or physically connected to ss. The destruction of SS only doesnt support the destruction of hueco mundo.

Reio sustaining all three makes far more sense, given he made hueco mundo.




Yamamoto's bankai is also stated to affect all water on the soul society. he has an accepted calc for that. It can still be used to damage the planet over time.

Flow of Souls​

Spoiler

addressed in my post above. Doesnt change that the feat we are discussing the same as killing reio.



It does in the sense that Tokinada discover most of the history provided by the families was utter bs. It is the only direct statement regarding the subject and it is given by a family member who purposely would not give Tokinada factual information.

Also" all characters being liars" is a generalization and ignores context here. The 5 famailies have built the history of SS on mostly half truths and lies. The statement should considered at least somewhat dubious.



right but as just discussed, statement is at least somewhat dubious

if we accept this statement, it is not just merely "maintains", but rather Controls.

About the blanks/souls we are told in memoires of nobody that shinigami with enough training can weaponize the power of blanks/souls.
The cast out clan spent time in the dangai learning how to do this
https://4anime.to/bleach-movie-1-memories-of-nobody?id=10225 46:24
one of the clan members absorbs the souls directly, and ichigo says he is stronger than before, physically. Anyone with sufficient control can do this. If we are arguing reio has control over the soul cycle, then Yhwach would be able to do this as well. Literal fodder can weapon souls as energy. Quincies flatout absorb reishi (spiritual matter), can do so to entire hollows, which are still souls.

As for range, the entire flow is stated to be universal in scope, (makes sense given the distance it encompasses in the cosmology). Again, if we accept this statement reio would have universal range or more to control this entire thing. There is absolutely no reason yhwach in reio's place cannot just yank energy from the soul cycle.

Should also mention, if environmental destruction via the flow is argued, that creates plot holes as well. Yhwach was fully capable of thought, and was not forced to maintain the flow. At any time, can cause a collapse except doesnt and explicitly absorbs raw power to later perform the feat himself instead

The Almighty and other issues​

Spoiler

The end chapter sketches provide a plethora of insight into Kubo’s mindset and directly connected to what is currently going on with the current state of the manga (the end chapter sketch of Uryu saving the Arrancar girl was even adapted into the anime, for example).

A scale has been used to represent the universe before (Not the same design but still). the sketches start building up to yhwach's final absorption and end on the same chapter as his merge attempt. In sequence its just showing what that entails, nothing more.



The folder with the scene for anyone who wishes to view it.


Discussed to death in this thread.

on page 396 of CFYOW III in the Japanese version: "無限に広がる黒腔の中を彷徨い続け"

無限に is a common phrase regarding 無限 (the kanji for infinite/infinity), in which it means to infinite or to infinity.

広がる is the verb to extend/to spread/to fill out. To extend obviously being a verb used to describe the size of something.

黒腔の中 means inside the Garganta, 黒腔 = Garganta, 中 = inside where の connects inside to Garganta.

を is a verb particle, 彷徨い続け means to prowl, prowl meaning wandering around usually with some sort of intent.

Japanese sentence structure is inverse from English. So together you have : "To prowl within the Garganta spreading/extending to infinity" in a more clean English sounding translation you might see it as "Wandering inside the infinite Garganta".

reaffirmed by the on site translator:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3747319

Tokinda’s Statement on The Soul King Destroying / Reshaping The World

Spoiler

In regards to this:

So for the tokinada statement about creating a world/destroying, he is referring to ginjo undergoing a process. Ginjo isnt that level already, so no contradiction. You pretty much touched on the process, but i dont think that means they inherent reallity warping is what destroying/reshaping means. Every time a restructure/creation has been done, its always been stated to be via power. Hogyoku can amp the person exposed to it (example aizen), so i think that they would reach that level regarding the statement.

Other Stuff

Spoiler

Mugetsu is referred to as “the ultimate move” in regards to anything seen thus far (Up to Aizen’s defeat). This would by virtue include Senna’s explosion feat, since it happened well before Mugetsu was shown:




"The ultimate move given by his father! A victory at the cost of the lost of his powers": Ichigo Isshin are in the in-between world in order to learn the supreme move wich is the Ultimate Getsuga Tenshô. in this space denser than thee external world , they have a lot of time ahead.”




全てを超越したその姿は、死神でも虚でもない、異形の姿だ った。
The figure transcending everything isn’t like a Shinigami or Hollow, the figure is fantastic/grotesque.

Mugetsu lore wise was the strongest move or attack done pre fullbringer timeskip. Is main selling point is ap. My argument for it upscaling above's senna's small planet explosion (or if its supposed to be the full realms that she stopped) hasnt been addressed.

Pretty good, uses Official Translations and Raws to justify the translations and ratings.

Also, I have to agree with Matt:

The 5-B stuff is pure bullshit. IT's just a disingenous attempt to appear understanding and to reach for a middle ground. The people proposing it don't actually believe it. And if it goes through (it won't) they'll just make another thread down the line asking to remove it so they'll be straight up Low 2-C.

5-B is bullshit, no one agrees with 5-B. Nothing supports such a low rating, so just go with what the scans actually support and stop trying to downplay what the scans say. You're just delaying the next 2-C thread. All the evidence is here now with the official translations all completed.

 

[YukaSama4]

They're High 6-A's because that's what the people running the wiki think they should be, them being High 6-A isn't a fact stated by Kubo, it's just how people think they should be rated as, their ratings aren't factual.

If we based things on how I think they should be, then Yhwach would be 3-A/Low 2-C in his SK absorbed key instead of starting at his last

You can only blame the people trying to refute the OP for such an illogical compromise, Yhwach being 3-A/Low 2-C in his second to last key makes the most sense imo but I don't run things here.

Yes, which is why I myself disagree with the scaling here but there is no option tbh, whatever u pick u will get issues in my opinion even the multi-continental tier or the planetary.

Nothing supports such a low rating

100% agree with this

 

[Reio35]

If somebody knows where to get the raw for the page, that would be good.

If you think yhwach was removing the dangai that's still a low 2C feat cuz yhwach the dangai is it's own space-time. Large enough to separate 2 universes

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Though I don't think Dangai is a universal size

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/yhwach-destroyer-of-worlds-bleach-god-tier-revision.116084/post-3748105

Repost for this so damage can see it

I do not consider a possibility of 5B to be b*******

At the very minimum in order for any interpretation of the merge to work the soul society planet would have to be busted. It is the absolute bare minimum that can be given.

There is also the argument of mugetsu upscaling from senna, which again has not been countered in any shape or form

I thought we already acknowledged that getting ginjo being a soul King candidate still requires him to undergo a process to reach the level of power Tokinada is implying.

Ichigo is already stated to be on that level though

 

[Cyberblader90]

Though I don't think Dangai is a universal size

If you take the diagram from kisuke, it's actually quite large. It dwarfs the boxes that represent the soul society and world of the living which are universes in themselves. And it's large enough that it dwarfs entire reishi space dimensions

 

[Cyberblader90]

If you guys can give me a few hours I can try and find the raw for the dangai statement about the boundary

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

If you take the diagram from kisuke, it's actually quite large.

can i get the scan of diagram

 

[Cyberblader90]

can i get the scan of diagram

Minor correction. The length of it is about relative to the dimensions, while the tube is nowhere near as thick.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll try to write out a summary explaining my thought process on this feat:

From Novel 2: "However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

From Novel 3: "Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we?"

From the manga: "The living world. The Soul Society. It will all lose shape and become one when faced with my power."

We have explanations from earlier in the manga from Rukia (confirmed by Urahara) and Hidetomo that ties into a "universe with no cycling of konpaku".

Here is the explanation from Rukia, page 1, page 2 and page 3.

Here is the explanation from Hidetomo, page 1 and page 2.

If the two worlds, Soul Society and the Living World were to mix, then everything would collapse. The "collapse of the Universe" as Rukia and Urahara put it. Life and death mixed together, which is exactly what Yhwach described as what would happen.

Life and death, the Soul Society and the Living World are kept separated by the Dangai, according to Hidetomo. So it seems reasonable that if that boundary no longer existed, then the balance would be disrupted and both worlds would lose shape and collapse into one. Meaning if Yhwach was to remove that boundary, then his plans would be fulfilled exactly as he describes.

People say "the plural 'boundaries' was used, therefore Yhwach had to be destroying something else" but Tokinada doesn't say Yhwach was going to destroy them. He simply said that if Yhwach won, then the boundaries would have disappeared. This is something that would have happened anyway with the 'collapse of the Universe'. Even if we did consider the Garganta to be a "boundary", it doesn't mean Yhwach had to personally destroy it for it to disappear.

People say "Yhwach was going to destroy the realms using his AP" but Yhwach doesn't specifically say he will destroy the Soul Society and Living World; he says they will lose shape and become one, which is exactly what would happen if the boundary (Dangai) between the worlds was destroyed by his "power". The end result, is that they will be merged, not that he will annihilate them so that there is nothing left.

People say "but Hueco Mundo was going to be destroyed too, and it isn't connected to Dangai", but that isn't relevant. Hueco Mundo isn't connected to the Living World or the Soul Society or the Dangai, but it would still get destroyed in the event of a Universal collapse because everything would be destroyed. According to Yhwach if life and death were to mix, then Hueco Mundo would be mixed in too. So if the Soul Society and Living World collapse, then Hueco Mundo is collapsing too.

People say "we saw Yhwach's Reiatsu coming out of Soul Society, so he meant to destroy Soul Society itself". Maybe he did. We can only speculate as to exactly what would have happened if Yhwach hadn't been interrupted. Maybe Yhwach was going to destroy the entire planet as part of him destroying the Dangai, maybe he was just personally erasing the Soul Society before he was going ahead with starting the collapse of everything. I don't like speculating on something we can't actually see happen.

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I'll try to write out a summary explaining my thought process on this feat:

From Novel 2: "However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

From Novel 3: "Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we?"

From the manga: "The living world. The Soul Society. It will all lose shape and become one when faced with my power."

We have explanations from earlier in the manga from Rukia (confirmed by Urahara) and Hidetomo that ties into a "universe with no cycling of konpaku".

Here is the explanation from Rukia, page 1, page 2 and page 3.

Here is the explanation from Hidetomo, page 1 and page 2.

If the two worlds, Soul Society and the Living World were to mix, then everything would collapse. The "collapse of the Universe" as Rukia and Urahara put it. Life and death mixed together, which is exactly what Yhwach described as what would happen.

Life and death, the Soul Society and the Living World are kept separated by the Dangai, according to Hidetomo. So it seems reasonable that if that boundary no longer existed, then the balance would be disrupted and both worlds would lose shape and collapse into one. Meaning if Yhwach was to remove that boundary, then his plans would be fulfilled exactly as he describes.

People say "the plural 'boundaries' was used, therefore Yhwach had to be destroying something else" but Tokinada doesn't say Yhwach was going to destroy them. He simply said that if Yhwach won, then the boundaries would have disappeared. This is something that would have happened anyway with the 'collapse of the Universe'. Even if we did consider the Garganta to be a "boundary", it doesn't mean Yhwach had to personally destroy it for it to disappear.

People say "Yhwach was going to destroy the realms using his AP" but Yhwach doesn't specifically say he will destroy the Soul Society and Living World; he says they will lose shape and become one, which is exactly what would happen if the boundary (Dangai) between the worlds was destroyed by his "power". The end result, is that they will be merged, not that he will annihilate them so that there is nothing left.

People say "but Hueco Mundo was going to be destroyed too, and it isn't connected to Dangai", but that isn't relevant. Hueco Mundo isn't connected to the Living World or the Soul Society or the Dangai, but it would still get destroyed in the event of a Universal collapse because everything would be destroyed. According to Yhwach if life and death were to mix, then Hueco Mundo would be mixed in too. So if the Soul Society and Living World collapse, then Hueco Mundo is collapsing too.

People say "we saw Yhwach's Reiatsu coming out of Soul Society, so he meant to destroy Soul Society itself". Maybe he did. We can only speculate as to exactly what would have happened if Yhwach hadn't been interrupted. Maybe Yhwach was going to destroy the entire planet as part of him destroying the Dangai, maybe he was just personally erasing the Soul Society before he was going ahead with starting the collapse of everything. I don't like speculating on something we can't actually see happen.

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

So Yhwach wouldn't have any upgrades? Tho doesn't he have some kind of a moon level feat? I could be wrong

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'll try to write out a summary explaining my thought process on this feat:

From Novel 2: "However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

From Novel 3: "Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we?"

From the manga: "The living world. The Soul Society. It will all lose shape and become one when faced with my power."

We have explanations from earlier in the manga from Rukia (confirmed by Urahara) and Hidetomo that ties into a "universe with no cycling of konpaku".

Here is the explanation from Rukia, page 1, page 2 and page 3.

Here is the explanation from Hidetomo, page 1 and page 2.

If the two worlds, Soul Society and the Living World were to mix, then everything would collapse. The "collapse of the Universe" as Rukia and Urahara put it. Life and death mixed together, which is exactly what Yhwach described as what would happen.

Life and death, the Soul Society and the Living World are kept separated by the Dangai, according to Hidetomo. So it seems reasonable that if that boundary no longer existed, then the balance would be disrupted and both worlds would lose shape and collapse into one. Meaning if Yhwach was to remove that boundary, then his plans would be fulfilled exactly as he describes.

People say "the plural 'boundaries' was used, therefore Yhwach had to be destroying something else" but Tokinada doesn't say Yhwach was going to destroy them. He simply said that if Yhwach won, then the boundaries would have disappeared. This is something that would have happened anyway with the 'collapse of the Universe'. Even if we did consider the Garganta to be a "boundary", it doesn't mean Yhwach had to personally destroy it for it to disappear.

People say "Yhwach was going to destroy the realms using his AP" but Yhwach doesn't specifically say he will destroy the Soul Society and Living World; he says they will lose shape and become one, which is exactly what would happen if the boundary (Dangai) between the worlds was destroyed by his "power". The end result, is that they will be merged, not that he will annihilate them so that there is nothing left.

People say "but Hueco Mundo was going to be destroyed too, and it isn't connected to Dangai", but that isn't relevant. Hueco Mundo isn't connected to the Living World or the Soul Society or the Dangai, but it would still get destroyed in the event of a Universal collapse because everything would be destroyed. According to Yhwach if life and death were to mix, then Hueco Mundo would be mixed in too. So if the Soul Society and Living World collapse, then Hueco Mundo is collapsing too.

People say "we saw Yhwach's Reiatsu coming out of Soul Society, so he meant to destroy Soul Society itself". Maybe he did. We can only speculate as to exactly what would have happened if Yhwach hadn't been interrupted. Maybe Yhwach was going to destroy the entire planet as part of him destroying the Dangai, maybe he was just personally erasing the Soul Society before he was going ahead with starting the collapse of everything. I don't like speculating on something we can't actually see happen.

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

I'll respond after breakfast if that's fine with you

 

[AKUTO123]

Damage merely puts assumptions about what he says is not consistent with manga

 

[AKM sama]

I'll try to write out a summary explaining my thought process on this feat:

From Novel 2: "However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

From Novel 3: "Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we?"

From the manga: "The living world. The Soul Society. It will all lose shape and become one when faced with my power."

We have explanations from earlier in the manga from Rukia (confirmed by Urahara) and Hidetomo that ties into a "universe with no cycling of konpaku".

Here is the explanation from Rukia, page 1, page 2 and page 3.

Here is the explanation from Hidetomo, page 1 and page 2.

If the two worlds, Soul Society and the Living World were to mix, then everything would collapse. The "collapse of the Universe" as Rukia and Urahara put it. Life and death mixed together, which is exactly what Yhwach described as what would happen.

Life and death, the Soul Society and the Living World are kept separated by the Dangai, according to Hidetomo. So it seems reasonable that if that boundary no longer existed, then the balance would be disrupted and both worlds would lose shape and collapse into one. Meaning if Yhwach was to remove that boundary, then his plans would be fulfilled exactly as he describes.

People say "the plural 'boundaries' was used, therefore Yhwach had to be destroying something else" but Tokinada doesn't say Yhwach was going to destroy them. He simply said that if Yhwach won, then the boundaries would have disappeared. This is something that would have happened anyway with the 'collapse of the Universe'. Even if we did consider the Garganta to be a "boundary", it doesn't mean Yhwach had to personally destroy it for it to disappear.

People say "Yhwach was going to destroy the realms using his AP" but Yhwach doesn't specifically say he will destroy the Soul Society and Living World; he says they will lose shape and become one, which is exactly what would happen if the boundary (Dangai) between the worlds was destroyed by his "power". The end result, is that they will be merged, not that he will annihilate them so that there is nothing left.

People say "but Hueco Mundo was going to be destroyed too, and it isn't connected to Dangai", but that isn't relevant. Hueco Mundo isn't connected to the Living World or the Soul Society or the Dangai, but it would still get destroyed in the event of a Universal collapse because everything would be destroyed. According to Yhwach if life and death were to mix, then Hueco Mundo would be mixed in too. So if the Soul Society and Living World collapse, then Hueco Mundo is collapsing too.

People say "we saw Yhwach's Reiatsu coming out of Soul Society, so he meant to destroy Soul Society itself". Maybe he did. We can only speculate as to exactly what would have happened if Yhwach hadn't been interrupted. Maybe Yhwach was going to destroy the entire planet as part of him destroying the Dangai, maybe he was just personally erasing the Soul Society before he was going ahead with starting the collapse of everything. I don't like speculating on something we can't actually see happen.

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

This makes sense to me.

I'm also gonna add again, I pointed out earlier, but people didn't seem to notice. Even if we take the assumption as the OP puts it and consider the garganta as being the "boundary between the realms", Garganta is not technically a boundary, but it can act as such, or rather, only the limited portion of Garganta present between the realms that separates them would be the "boundaries" according to that logic.

So even if we take that case, at best the feat would be unquantifiable due to destroying limited specific part of garganta that is acting as a boundary. The destruction of the entire garganta, as is assumed, is not even necessary to "remove the boundaries" and eventually return everything back to achieve the end goal as a result, as it is stated.

 

[AKUTO123]

Not once in the manga final arc was said that yhwach would destroy dangai or a crucial point for the destruction of the Universes, which is definitely the head canon. Although yhwach stated that he would do it himself and not with the death of the soul king, it still makes no sense to say it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This makes sense to me.

I'm also gonna add again, I pointed out earlier, but people didn't seem to notice. Even if we take the assumption as the OP puts it and consider the garganta as being the "boundary between the realms", Garganta is not technically a boundary, but it can act as such, or rather, only the limited portion of Garganta present between the realms that separates them would be the "boundaries" according to that logic.

So even if we take that case, at best the feat would be unquantifiable due to destroying limited specific part of garganta that is acting as a boundary. The destruction of the entire garganta, as is assumed, is not even necessary to "remove the boundaries" and eventually return everything back to achieve the end goal as a result, as it is stated.

Garganta is proven to be infinite in this very thread...so destroying even portion of it is H3A.....

 

[AKUTO123]

I think we should focus on this dengue first thing because it is brought to the agenda even though it is unrelated to success. We directly ignore yhwach's revealing the black energy and expressing the destruction of everything. If it has nothing to do with yhwach's land energy and reiatsus, why do you think kubo drew the last panel? Is he drawing a panel or something for decoration? It is absurd to say that yhwach has all the power of reio but cannot do it with his raw power

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I'll try to write out a summary explaining my thought process on this feat:

From Novel 2: "However, he had heard Yhwach’s goal was not to rule over the three worlds but to remove the boundary itself between the worlds and return everything to primordial soup."

From Novel 3: "Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared and we would have returned to a universe in which there would be no cycling of konpaku, wouldn’t we?"

From the manga: "The living world. The Soul Society. It will all lose shape and become one when faced with my power."

We have explanations from earlier in the manga from Rukia (confirmed by Urahara) and Hidetomo that ties into a "universe with no cycling of konpaku".

Here is the explanation from Rukia, page 1, page 2 and page 3.

Here is the explanation from Hidetomo, page 1 and page 2.

If the two worlds, Soul Society and the Living World were to mix, then everything would collapse. The "collapse of the Universe" as Rukia and Urahara put it. Life and death mixed together, which is exactly what Yhwach described as what would happen.

Life and death, the Soul Society and the Living World are kept separated by the Dangai, according to Hidetomo. So it seems reasonable that if that boundary no longer existed, then the balance would be disrupted and both worlds would lose shape and collapse into one. Meaning if Yhwach was to remove that boundary, then his plans would be fulfilled exactly as he describes.

People say "the plural 'boundaries' was used, therefore Yhwach had to be destroying something else" but Tokinada doesn't say Yhwach was going to destroy them. He simply said that if Yhwach won, then the boundaries would have disappeared. This is something that would have happened anyway with the 'collapse of the Universe'. Even if we did consider the Garganta to be a "boundary", it doesn't mean Yhwach had to personally destroy it for it to disappear.

People say "Yhwach was going to destroy the realms using his AP" but Yhwach doesn't specifically say he will destroy the Soul Society and Living World; he says they will lose shape and become one, which is exactly what would happen if the boundary (Dangai) between the worlds was destroyed by his "power". The end result, is that they will be merged, not that he will annihilate them so that there is nothing left.

People say "but Hueco Mundo was going to be destroyed too, and it isn't connected to Dangai", but that isn't relevant. Hueco Mundo isn't connected to the Living World or the Soul Society or the Dangai, but it would still get destroyed in the event of a Universal collapse because everything would be destroyed. According to Yhwach if life and death were to mix, then Hueco Mundo would be mixed in too. So if the Soul Society and Living World collapse, then Hueco Mundo is collapsing too.

People say "we saw Yhwach's Reiatsu coming out of Soul Society, so he meant to destroy Soul Society itself". Maybe he did. We can only speculate as to exactly what would have happened if Yhwach hadn't been interrupted. Maybe Yhwach was going to destroy the entire planet as part of him destroying the Dangai, maybe he was just personally erasing the Soul Society before he was going ahead with starting the collapse of everything. I don't like speculating on something we can't actually see happen.

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

In short, sorry but I'm really confused about which tier you're scaling Yhwach to and why you're scaling it. would you write this down please?

 

[Cyberblader90]

This makes sense to me.

I'm also gonna add again, I pointed out earlier, but people didn't seem to notice. Even if we take the assumption as the OP puts it and consider the garganta as being the "boundary between the realms", Garganta is not technically a boundary, but it can act as such, or rather, only the limited portion of Garganta present between the realms that separates them would be the "boundaries" according to that logic.

So even if we take that case, at best the feat would be unquantifiable due to destroying limited specific part of garganta that is acting as a boundary. The destruction of the entire garganta, as is assumed, is not even necessary to "remove the boundaries" and eventually return everything back to achieve the end goal as a result, as it is stated.

i put a section in my last post, inclucing a certain section of it on why that wouldnt turn everything back to primordial soup.

soup is actually possibly wrong

原初の海に帰す事だったと聞いている。

First four kanji “sea of origin”

so back to the world as it was prior

So everything goes back to square 1

 

[AKUTO123]

My overall point is that trying to extroplate from this that what Yhwach really intended to do all along was blow up the Garganta is too speculative for me to accept as the primary justification for Yhwach's ratings. The Garganta isn't called the boundary between worlds, Yhwach never claims to want to personally destroy the Garganta. We have alternative explanations that fulfill the "life and death mixing together" part of Yhwach's plan.

Let's say yhwach wasn't going to destroy the garganta. but still would destroy / unite the SS and the living world and how to do this is clearly shown on the panel, it is wrong to ignore the panel and make the head

 

[Reio35]

Ichigo had the potential to become the Soul King, but the same thing was said for Ginjo. Simply having the potential doesn't make him Prime Soul King tier.

His two feats against Soul King Yhwach here and here, I think are in fact not that straightforward for scaling.

The first one was when Yhwach was assured of his victory and had let his guard down. He didn't have a protective shield of Reiatsu around him (which was instead in the surrounding area, destroying the Seireitei) and with his guard lowered. I would not assume that his passive durability is equal to his AP.

And for the second one, it was in the moment when Yhwach had lost his powers and was just beginning to regain them. I'd say his durability would be unknown here. He obviously didn't regain his full powers because he would have regained the Almighty which would have rewritten his death.

Soul King is just a seal where one's power is sacrificed for the 3 realms. So if you are a soul king candidate that means you have enough reiatsu to be used. They even did the same thing to the first soul king after he created worlds they sealed him to the name. The means he had universal power before he was even sealed to the name.

Ichigo had the power to replace the soul king

 

[PrinceofPein]

They're High 6-A's because that's what the people running the wiki think they should be, them being High 6-A isn't a fact stated by Kubo, it's just how people think they should be rated as, their ratings aren't factual.

No they are high 6As cause they are high 6As, and their ratings are okay cause they have feats, upscale or statements that says they are with the wiki standards
And also kubo never called them low 2C or 3A.

If we based things on how I think they should be, then Yhwach would be 3-A/Low 2-C in his SK absorbed key instead of starting at his last

A high 6A will need to absorb low 2C energy to become low 2C, which means the weakened SK is low 2C, the ichigo that sliced wsk becomes low 2C from cutting through a low 2C cause according to you "your durability can't drop by infinity" anyone that scales to the ichigo including the likes of ichibei and the guards becomes low 2C too?

The flaw in the entire thing is alarming and yes I believe the ratings are okay as they currently are.

You can only blame the people trying to refute the OP for such an illogical compromise, Yhwach being 3-A/Low 2-C in his second to last key makes the most sense imo but I don't run things here.

No I actually blame no one thats why I remain neutral. If I am to go with any logic, it will be "absorbing high 6As won't grant you low 2C AP"

 

[YukaSama4]

Lol did he just say the Royal guards scale to Ichigo

 

[AKUTO123]

I also want to say this about continuing the cogmology novel's. it was said that all that was needed for this was reiatsu, so ginjo, hikone ichigo, and yhwach were said that these characters could be soul king and maintain cojmology, all in common that they are hybrid and their extreme high reiatsu has nothing to do with soul manipulation.

 

[Tyri456]

I think we should focus on this dengue first thing because it is brought to the agenda even though it is unrelated to success. We directly ignore yhwach's revealing the black energy and expressing the destruction of everything. If it has nothing to do with yhwach's land energy and reiatsus, why do you think kubo drew the last panel? Is he drawing a panel or something for decoration? It is absurd to say that yhwach has all the power of reio but cannot do it with his raw power

They are not gonna admit it.

-too speculative
-what is clearly shown in the panel

better create a theory that Yhwach never mentioned once that contradict the visual in it’s entirety.

Yhwach also states he was using his power to destroy and bring back everything. Why even bothering to absorbs Soul King and get a power boost if he could have done it without it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Lol did he just say the Royal guards scale to Ichigo

You can't read?

 

[AKUTO123]

Hayır, yüksek 6A çünkü yüksek 6A olmaları ve derecelendirmeleri iyidir çünkü wiki standartlarına uygun olduklarını söyleyen başarıları, üst ölçekleri veya ifadeleri vardır.
Ve ayrıca kubo onlara asla düşük 2C veya 3A demedi.

Yüksek bir 6A'nın, düşük 2C'ye dönüşmesi için düşük 2C enerjisini absorbe etmesi gerekir; bu, zayıflamış SK'nin düşük 2C olduğu anlamına gelir; dilimlenmiş wsk, düşük 2C nedenini keserek 2C'ye düşer infinity "ichibei ve gardiyanlar da dahil olmak üzere ichigo'ya ölçeklenen herkes 2C'nin de düşük olması?

Her şeydeki kusur endişe verici ve evet , reytinglerin şu anda olduğu gibi iyi olduğuna inanıyorum.



Hayır aslında kimseyi suçlamıyorum, bu yüzden tarafsız kalıyorum. Herhangi bir mantıkla gidecek olursam, bu "yüksek 6A'ları emmek size düşük 2C AP vermez" olacaktır.

According to you, what should a character do or what it can do to be universal? Ignore it as it has been stated many times that the character can destroy universes? Is it unreasonable for the character to step up like this? I guess, with your logic, no character can go above the level it is in.

 

[YukaSama4]

According to you, what should a character do or what it can do to be universal? Ignore it as it has been stated many times that the character can destroy universes? Is it unreasonable for the character to step up like this? I guess, with your logic, no character can go above the level it is in.

according to him, Ichibe and the other guards scale to Ichigo so yeah