Yellow Hedgehog Swordsman VS Yellow Monke Swordsman (CONCLUDED)

[ShakeResounding]

Yes it is? Future trunks vaporized frieza straight up actually he was stated to have atomized him, and that's not counting the ridiculous scaling chain which they scale above the value which for your information looks like this >>>>>>>244.5, just 3 ">" is enough to stomp.

I believe that falls under verse equalization, like where in one series a 2x difference might be a stomp but in another you can put up a fight against a person who's 10x stronger than you. This comes it in many Vs Threads with Dragon Ball in particular. So I don't think it's working that way either.

So trunks can easily vaporize with ki.

Let's say it doesn't affect it under verse equalization just in case I'm wrong. Sonic is wearing armor anyways. The purpose of armor is to protect the person inside of it. In this case, Sonic's armor that he gets in the endgame of Black Knight is a LOT sturdier than Sonic himself.

Could Trunks completely wreck the armor? Yes, and it's very likely. Will Trunks vaporize Sonic through the armor with a random stray no blast IF it even manages to hit? No, not a chance. COULD it? If Trunks charged up enough energy and released a Galick Gun, a Masenko, etc., yeah. But that's giving Sonic too much time.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I believe that falls under verse equalization, like where in one series a 2x difference might be a stomp but in another you can put up a fight against a person who's 10x stronger than you. This comes it in many Vs Threads with Dragon Ball in particular. So I don't think it's working that way either.



Let's say it doesn't affect it under verse equalization just in case I'm wrong. Sonic is wearing armor anyways. The purpose of armor is to protect the person inside of it. In this case, Sonic's armor that he gets in the endgame of Black Knight is a LOT sturdier than Sonic himself.

Could Trunks completely wreck the armor? Yes, and it's very likely. Will Trunks vaporize Sonic through the armor with a random stray no blast IF it even manages to hit? No, not a chance. COULD it? If Trunks charged up enough energy and released a Galick Gun, a Masenko, etc., yeah. But that's giving Sonic too much time.

No, not only does trunks have a 7.5x AP advantage, but he also scales so ridiculously high above his value that just to give you an idea, mecha frieza thought he could easily beat namek Goku, got fodderized effortlessly and sliced through like butter and atomized by trunks. If the armour scales to the value that sonic scales to then it doesn't even matter, because trunks still kills in one attack. Be it a sword slice that ends sonic the same way it ended frieza, or an energy blast that vaporizes sonic. Also I don't see how hitting sonic once would be so hard, yeah he has analytical prediction but that's it? Can you tell me why?

 

[ShakeResounding]

No, not only does trunks have a 7.5x AP advantage, but he also scales so ridiculously high above his value that just to give you an idea, mecha frieza thought he could easily beat namek Goku, got fodderized effortlessly and sliced through like butter and atomized by trunks.

That means nothing. As you said to me in the Sonic and Knuckles v Goku and Piccolo thread, none of that really means anything. Frieza is a notoriously cocky villain (which isn't to fully discredit him being higher in AP) so it's not like the guy needs to be SO far above what Goku was.

You can even argue the same thing for Excalibur Sonic, who got effortlessly shitstomped by Merlina when in Base and then proceeded to do the shitstomping when he transformed. Not to mention Sonic ALREADY massively upscales from his value through repeatedly training and groeing stronger through each installment (DBZ style, funnily enough). So at worst they upscale similar amounts from their respective values, and if anything Sonic has a greater scaling chain above his value.

If the armour scales to the value that sonic scales to then it doesn't even matter, because trunks still kills in one attack

If the armor didn't increase Sonic's durability, there would be no point in having it. The armor isn't just treated as something cosmetic.

Be it a sword slice that ends sonic the same way it ended frieza, or an energy blast that vaporizes sonic.

Already went over this.

Also I don't see how hitting sonic once would be so hard, yeah he has analytical prediction but that's it? Can you tell me why?

Far superior skill, can keep up with people just as skilled AND as agile as him on a regular basis, can casually beat machines that are specifically created to counter him and his combat style, has seen everything Trunks has to offer and more except for kiai, multiple evasive techniques specifically used to increase his dodging and maneuverability, and etc.

 

[Ss3micah]

This debate seems Fun and very Interesting
I'm kinda neutral on all arguments brought forward as of the current moment

From my Understanding

It seems like Trunks' Ace card is his Sheer Higher Stats (Except Speed and likely Exp) but sonic has work arounds (probably) that can delay Trunks' Victory for an exhausting amount of time

While Sonic has alot of Hax but I haven't seen any definitive arguments as to which hax sonic can put trunks down with

 

[Ss3micah]

Can someone explain the win cons for each characters please because based on what I'm seeing it looks like its gonna be a drawn out battle between the two of them with sonic using his defensive hax to keep trunks at bay while using his offensive hax to no decisive avail all the while trunks is using RPL throughout the match and progressively getting Stat Edges over sonic

 

[ShakeResounding]

While Sonic has alot of Hax but I haven't seen any definitive arguments as to which hax sonic can put trunks down with

Cutting him. Excalibur cuts like a hot knife through butter and is said to be able to cut through everything. While it's obvious hyperbole, Excalibur's AP is faaaaar higher than Sonic's raw AP because that's how it's treated for the limited amount of time it has in-verse. So that, coupled with Excalibur Sonic being able to amplify Excalibur in golden energy to up the ante even further, and Sonic having extra means of Statistics Amplification on top of that, and being able to extend its blade to have a farther reach, means a very dead Trunks. He doesn't have any meaningful way of healing himself from, say, his arm being cleaved off or Sonic stabbing through his chest. Sonic can straight up mutilate him ten ways to Sunday.

while trunks is using RPL throughout the match and progressively getting Stat Edges over sonic

Trunks' Reactive Power Level isn't that potent and is never shown to be as such in the heat of combat aside from one occasion in Super iirc. If it were, he and Gohan would've likely been fine against the Androids of his timeline. DBZ's RPL is overplayed (aside from Broly). Super is where it gets crazy.

I do totally agree that it's a cool matchup.

 

[Ss3micah]

First Contender
And now the Fun Begins

Cutting him. Excalibur cuts like a hot knife through butter and is said to be able to cut through everything

Obvious Flowery Language. It's been done too many times across way too many animes, manga and games I can list.

.While it's obvious hyperbole

OOF You agreed on that. Hehe Lol

Excalibur's AP is faaaaar higher than Sonic's raw AP because that's how it's treated for the limited amount of time it has in-verse

Give me an estimate because right now your giving me an unknown number based on an innumerable factor and assuming it's higher than Trunks. I need an estimation that follows the narrative or some game explanations to approximately get a read on just how far Excalibur AP is above sonics AP.

.So that, coupled with Excalibur Sonic being able to amplify Excalibur in golden energy to up the ante even further, and Sonic having extra means of Statistics Amplification on top of that, and being able to extend its blade to have a farther reach, means a very dead Trunks. He doesn't have any meaningful way of healing himself from, say, his arm being cleaved off or Sonic stabbing through his chest. Sonic can straight up mutilate him ten ways to Sunday.

Interesting Argument I'll admit, but sonics statistics amplifications haven't been displayed of amping up sonic by the amount he'd need in order to close the gap and even then his stat amps are always portrayed as being temporary. Also based on the numbers I've seen, there's nothing to properly or definitively say that all those boosts would be able to close the gap.

Trunks' Reactive Power Level isn't that potent and is never shown to be as such in the heat of combat aside from one occasion in Super iirc. If it were, he and Gohan would've likely been fine against the Androids of his timeline. DBZ's RPL is overplayed (aside from Broly). Super is where it gets crazy.

I suppose this is true to an extent.

I do totally agree that it's a cool matchup.

Hehehe Same

 

[Ss3micah]

Actually I just went back on profiles and checked something over

Trunks as a Super Saiyan is 4-C while EX Sonic is Low 4-C and IIRC according to Wiki Rules you can't Tier Jump with Stat Amps (unless the character was shown doing this in verse to be the case), so doesn't Trunks have the AP Advantage Regardless of whatever amps sonic tries?

Sonic's Stat Amps would only bring him higher into Low 4-C but not make him 4-C unless he was shown being comparable to 4-C beings after amping himself in game (which he has no feats supporting that case)

And Sonics Stat Amps are also an unknown boost as it isn't directly stated how much stronger he becomes after amping himself but even then I can promise you it's not gonna be more than a x2 stat amp otherwise sonic would be oneshotting enemies in game and even then a x2 boost wouldn't close the gap

 

[ShakeResounding]

Give me an estimate because right now your giving me an unknown number based on an innumerable factor and assuming it's higher than Trunks. I need an estimation that follows the narrative or some game explanations to approximately get a read on just how far Excalibur AP is above sonics AP.

Sonic uses a sword because his own attacks would be less effective. It's like using a knife because AP isn't enough, take that for what you will. When I said it was "higher in AP", I meant that using a blade is more effective in terms of harming beings. Should've made that more clear.

Interesting Argument I'll admit, but sonics statistics amplifications haven't been displayed of amping up sonic by the amount he'd need in order to close the gap and even then his stat amps are always portrayed as being temporary. Also based on the numbers I've seen, there's nothing to properly or definitively say that all those boosts would be able to close the gap.

Excalibur Sonic's amps aren't temporary, his sword radiates with energy and he can use it on command to amplify Excalibur's striking power.
And that's the thing, Sonic doesn't need to close the gap. Even with Trunks at a massive AP advantage, it's not enough to be somehow rendered immune to attacks from Sonic's sword, a weapon that can cut through armor of comparable opponents like butter. Imagine what it's gonna do to skin.

Trunks as a Super Saiyan is 4-C while EX Sonic is Low 4-C and IIRC according to Wiki Rules you can't Tier Jump with Stat Amps (unless the character was shown doing this in verse to be the case), so doesn't Trunks have the AP Advantage Regardless of whatever amps sonic tries?

See above, Sonic doesn't need the AP advantage.

Sonic's Stat Amps would only bring him higher into Low 4-C but not make him 4-C unless he was shown being comparable to 4-C beings after amping himself in game

Sonic doesn't need to be 4-C in this fight.

 

[Ss3micah]

I like the cut of this guys jib

Sonic uses a sword because his own attacks would be less effective. It's like using a knife because AP isn't enough, take that for what you will. When I said it was "higher in AP", I meant that using a blade is more effective in terms of harming beings. Should've made that more clear.

Mm hmm. I get that. What I'm saying is that not just sonic but the Excalibur's AP is ALSO RATED AS LOW 4-C and as you can see it also does not have Dura Neg. So now my question becomes, one what grounds and on what solid basis is the Excalibur with it's Low 4-C AP gonna be able to even Knick let alone slice completely through Trunks 4-C Durability. Being more effective doesn't give the Excalibur Tier Ignoring abilities unless written and stated and neither of which is the case.

Excalibur Sonic's amps aren't temporary, his sword radiates with energy and he can use it on command to amplify Excalibur's striking power.
And that's the thing, Sonic doesn't need to close the gap. Even with Trunks at a massive AP advantage, it's not enough to be somehow rendered immune to attacks from Sonic's sword, a weapon that can cut through armor of comparable opponents like butter. Imagine what it's gonna do to skin.

I was more over referring to his Soul Surge Amp but even then you can't just say that the Excalibur slices and dices through trunks when it definitely doesn't have the abilities and AP to prove it. Trunks won't be immune to the sword attacks but his durability being that much vastly higher will render the attacks from almost ineffective. Just because the Excalibur can cut through armor (with obviously weaker durability) doesn't mean that just because trunks isn't wearing any means the Excalibur can completely ignore trunks Durability. And Radiating Energy isn't saying anything much other than the Excalibur is shiny.

See above, Sonic doesn't need the AP advantage.

According to Wiki Standards, unless the sword has Dura Neg, the sword will break on Trunks because Low 4-C AP cannot cut through 4-C Durability especially when this hasn't been proven in canon either

Sonic doesn't need to be 4-C in this fight.

That's where his hax comes in
Excalibur is pretty much useless here

 

[ShakeResounding]

Mm hmm. I get that. What I'm saying is that not just sonic but the Excalibur's AP is ALSO RATED AS LOW 4-C and as you can see it also does not have Dura Neg. So now my question becomes, one what grounds and on what solid basis is the Excalibur with it's Low 4-C AP gonna be able to even Knick let alone slice completely through Trunks 4-C Durability. Being more effective doesn't give the Excalibur Tier Ignoring abilities unless written and stated and neither of which is the case.

Because THE DIFFERENCE IS LESS THAN 7.6x is why. And "Tier ignoring"? You're acting as if there's a dimensional difference between the two.

I was more over referring to his Soul Surge Amp but even then you can't just say that the Excalibur slices and dices through trunks when it definitely doesn't have the abilities and AP to prove it. Trunks won't be immune to the sword attacks but his durability being that much vastly higher will render the attacks from almost ineffective.

The gap is roughly around 7.6x (though far less in actuality). You're overplaying the difference in strength, especially when factoring in Excalibur's role as a blade.

Just because the Excalibur can cut through armor (with obviously weaker durability) doesn't mean that just because trunks isn't wearing any means the Excalibur can completely ignore trunks Durability.

Swords are piercing damage, it's not something Trunks can tank. There's a reason why ordinary swords in real life are 9-C. You mean to tell me you seriously think Excalibur isn't gonna do any damage?

And Radiating Energy isn't saying anything much other than the Excalibur is shiny.

Argument from ignorance and a blatant attempt to disregard something you have no counter for.

According to Wiki Standards, unless the sword has Dura Neg, the sword will break on Trunks because Low 4-C AP cannot cut through 4-C Durability especially when this hasn't been proven in canon either

That is how it works AT ALL, and that is NOT wiki standards. I've been on Vs Battles since 2017 and I can tell you that's a misinterpretation of how things work. The gap between Sonic's Low 4-C AP and baseline 4-C is like, a 2x difference. Between Trunks and Sonic, less that 7.6x. Just because something's labelled as 4-C doesnt automatically negate a lower Tier. By that logic, Sonic should break his hand fighting even a baseline 4-C.

 

[deonment]

The only times multipliers don't let you jump tier is tier 2 and up, unless context for tier 2 and up says otherwise

 

[Ss3micah]

Because THE DIFFERENCE IS LESS THAN 7.6x is why. And "Tier ignoring"? You're acting as if there's a dimensional difference between the two. What are you even on about?

The gap is roughly around 7.6x (though far less in actuality). You're overplaying the difference in strength, especially when factoring in Excalibur's role as a blade.

Swords are piercing damage, it's not something Trunks can tank. There's a reason why ordinary swords in real life are 9-C. You mean to tell me you seriously think Excalibur isn't gonna do any damage?

Argument from ignorance and a blatant attempt to disregard something you have no counter for.

This part was me just making a witty joke. I'm just trying to have fun with this debate Lol

That is how it works AT ALL, and that is NOT wiki standards. The gap between Sonic's Low 4-C AP and baseline 4-C is like, a 2x difference. Between Trunks and Sonic, less that 7.6x. Just because something's labelled as 4-C doesnt automatically negate a lower Tier. By that logic, Sonic should break his hand fighting even a baseline 4-C.

Alright Cool
Now I've got points to make

1. How much stronger is the Excalibur than sonic. I assume that the 7.6 gap is between Sonic's AP and Trunks' AP, so I'd like to know in your own assumptions/opinions what is the AP Boost the Excalibur has over sonic?
2. Swords being Piercing Damage doesn't mean it'll work on Trunks Automatically since you know DB Characers can toughen their skin, muscles and bones with Ki. I believe goku kinda proved this on multiple occasions
3. Are you saying that via unknown multipliers/amplifications the Excalibur could be 4-C or affect 4-C Durability and if so how can prove that the Excalibur gives you that increase. Saying it's far higher doesn't really say much without proper exposition

 

[ShakeResounding]

This part was me just making a witty joke. I'm just trying to have fun with this debate Lol

This, I'll admit, was completely my fault LMAO. I'm sorry!

1. How much stronger is the Excalibur than sonic. I assume that the 7.6 gap is between Sonic's AP and Trunks' AP, so I'd like to know in your own assumptions/opinions what is the AP Boost the Excalibur has over sonic?

The AP between the two are already finnicky at best, because both upscale from their feats and Sonic upscales from every previous game because he trains off-screen to increase his strength. I can't place a value on Excalibur aside from saying he upscales heavily from Sonic himself (because trying to place a value would be headcanon), which shrinks the gap between the two further in terms of Sonic harming him.

2. Swords being Piercing Damage doesn't mean it'll work on Trunks Automatically since you know DB Characers can toughen their skin, muscles and bones with Ki. I believe goku kinda proved this on multiple occasions

Oh of course. But there's only so much damage that Trunks will be able to withstand, especially if Sonic catches him by surprise. The entire point of the Soul Surge in combat with Excalibur is to do vast amounts of damage to a boss that can take heavy punishment. And considering the sheer skill, maneuverability, and agility advantage that Sonic has, Trunks doesn't really have good odds of even hitting the guy. I've detailed further above as to why that is.

3. Are you saying that via unknown multipliers/amplifications the Excalibur could be 4-C or affect 4-C Durability and if so how can prove that the Excalibur gives you that increase. Saying it's far higher doesn't really say much without proper exposition

Sonic CAN affect 4-C durability, because the difference isn't large enough for him to be unable to. I think you're focusing too much on the ratings, look at it this way. Haven't you noticed matches from people that are in the + range of a Tier being put up against the person the next Tier up? For example, a High 7-A+ can meaningfully harm a 6-C even if they don't have 6-C AP. Because the difference is less than 2x. To put it into another example, say a regular guy punches an athlete. The athlete will still feel that punch and be hurt by it despite being a 10-A that was hit by a 10-B.

 

[Ss3micah]

This, I'll admit, was completely my fault LMAO. I'm sorry!

Hehe It's cool

The AP between the two are already finnicky at best, because both upscale from their feats and Sonic upscales from every previous game because he trains off-screen to increase his strength. I can't place a value on Excalibur aside from saying he upscales heavily from Sonic himself (because trying to place a value would be headcanon), which shrinks the gap between the two further in terms of Sonic harming him.

Oh of course. But there's only so much damage that Trunks will be able to withstand, especially if Sonic catches him by surprise. The entire point of the Soul Surge in combat with Excalibur is to do vast amounts of damage to a boss that can take heavy punishment. And considering the sheer skill, maneuverability, and agility advantage that Sonic has, Trunks doesn't really have good odds of even hitting the guy. I've detailed further above as to why that is.

Sonic CAN affect 4-C durability, because the difference isn't large enough for him to be unable to. I think you're focusing too much on the ratings, look at it this way. Haven't you noticed matches from people that are in the + range of a Tier being put up against the person the next Tier up? For example, a High 7-A+ can meaningfully harm a 6-C even if they don't have 6-C AP. Because the difference is less than 2x. That's how this wiki functions. To put it into another example, say a regular guy punches an athlete. The athlete will still feel that punch and be hurt by it despite being a 10-A that was hit by a 10-B.

Ok I think after reading through all this I want to go back to the root point and cause of all this
The AP Calcs

How were they determined in order for this 7.6 times AP Gap to exist

Spoiler

Honestly I could ignore all the AP Shenanigans' and go straight into the fight but I think it's important to know what's up first

 

[ShakeResounding]

How were they determined in order for this 7.6 times AP Gap to exist

Excalibur Sonic (Somewhat stomps) >> Merlina (Hard stomp) >>> Modern Sonic (Black Knight) > Adventure Sonic (Sonic Battle) > 7-Emerl = Eclipse Cannon = 32.12 Tenatons

SSJ Future Trunks (Hard stomps) >>> Mecha Frieza > SSJ Goku = 244.5 Tenatons iirc

Though it's important to note Excalibur Sonic isn't going to rely on AP anyways. His entire fight was perfectly-timed counterattacks, analytical fighting, and wearing her down enough to finish her off. If it was Base Sonic, that'd be a different story.

 

[Ss3micah]

Excalibur Sonic (Somewhat stomps) >> Merlina (Hard stomp) >>> Modern Sonic (Black Knight) > Adventure Sonic (Sonic Battle) > 7-Emerl = Eclipse Cannon = 32.12 Tenatons

SSJ Future Trunks (Hard stomps) >>> Mecha Frieza > SSJ Goku = 244.5 Tenatons iirc

Though it's important to note Excalibur Sonic isn't going to rely on AP anyways. His entire fight was perfectly-timed counterattacks, analytical fighting, and wearing her down enough to finish her off. If it was Base Sonic, that'd be a different story.

Ok I have a slight Issue about Trunks' scaling a bit...

Evidently 1st Form Frieza has an AP of 4.89 Tenatons
1st Form Frieza has a PL of 530,000 and SS Goku had a PL of 150 Mil

150 Mil / 530K = 283 times difference (meaning ss goku should be relatively around 283 times stronger than 1st Form Frieza)
4.89 Tenatons * 283 = 1,383 Tenatons (if my math is working correctly)

And we know power levels work like that because Nappa and Vegeta confirmed it when comparing their power levels to Raditz

And SS Trunks scales significantly above SS Goku (Namek Saga)

So why does the scaling seem so lowballed?
Im just asking curious questions here

 

[ElixirBlue]

Wow, this blew up a bit?

What are the current arguements?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Ok I have a slight Issue about Trunks' scaling a bit...

Evidently 1st Form Frieza has an AP of 4.89 Tenatons
1st Form Frieza has a PL of 530,000 and SS Goku had a PL of 150 Mil

150 Mil / 530K = 283 times difference (meaning ss goku should be relatively around 283 times stronger than 1st Form Frieza)
4.89 Tenatons * 283 = 1,383 Tenatons (if my math is working correctly)

And we know power levels work like that because Nappa and Vegeta confirmed it when comparing their power levels to Raditz

And SS Trunks scales significantly above SS Goku (Namek Saga)

So why does the scaling seem so lowballed?
Im just asking curious questions here

A-ah, so you're that new? Well, we don't scale power levels linearly like that on the wiki. It's been decided for years.

 

[Ss3micah]

Wow, this blew up a bit?

What are the current arguements?

I'm kinda sorting that out with ReSounding atm cause I want to determine what's going on with the AP Scaling

 

[Ss3micah]

A-ah, so you're that new? Well, we don't scale power levels linearly like that on the wiki. It's been decided for years.

Alr

 

[Ss3micah]

Excalibur Sonic (Somewhat stomps) >> Merlina (Hard stomp) >>> Modern Sonic (Black Knight) > Adventure Sonic (Sonic Battle) > 7-Emerl = Eclipse Cannon = 32.12 Tenatons

SSJ Future Trunks (Hard stomps) >>> Mecha Frieza > SSJ Goku = 244.5 Tenatons iirc

Though it's important to note Excalibur Sonic isn't going to rely on AP anyways. His entire fight was perfectly-timed counterattacks, analytical fighting, and wearing her down enough to finish her off. If it was Base Sonic, that'd be a different story.

Okay so Trunks upscales from 244.5 T and Sonic from 32.12 T
So now here's my problem
What direct and detailed indication exists that suggests that EX Sonic Closes the Gap and/or that Trunks's own scaling above the Goku doesn't extend it back out again?

Honestly it's an assumption on either of our sides no matter how you splice it Lol

 

[ShakeResounding]

Wow, this blew up a bit?

What are the current arguements?

Trunks: AP advantage that's hovering near 7.6x, so he can potentially incapacitate and one-shot, usage of ki for AoE blasts and barrages of attacks for range, invisible attack in the form of kiai (though it's out of character)

Excalibur Sonic: Soul Surge that functions similarly to Type 2 Immortality due to Soul Surge energy being reduced when taking a hit rather than Sonic dying when his "rings" hit 0, far superior skill/agility/maneuverability, analytical/evasive and counterattack based fighting style, has seen and dealt with nearly everything Trunks has minus the kiai, and his Danger Sense

So now here's my problem. What direct and detailed indication exists that suggests that EX Sonic Closes the Gap and/or that Trunks's own scaling above the Goku doesn't exrtend it back out again? Honestly it's an assumption on either of our sides no matter how you splice it Lol

You were the one who mainly brought AP up again. Which isn't bad! I just kinda dropped the AP matter already because even I argued their upscaling kinda cancels each other out lol. It's a skill match.

 

[JED]

As I have missed a lot of this thread, I have some ground to cover. As for the comment about Analytical Prediction not being able to work, The Dark Queen was also relative to Sonic in their battle, just like Trunks is in this scenario. Even so, he was able to dodge all of her attacks no problem while thinking to himself how he should dodge and then counter. Sonic doesn’t just rush in guns blazing without thinking, he literally wants to play it safe until he knows the right time to strike, and then instantly backs away if he sees the opponent starting to recover.
In addition to this, Sonic’s Soul Surge, which has already been established to be passively increasing as the fight goes on, allows him to amp himself to the point where he blitzed Merlina, who again was initially comparable to him. So if/when he uses this Trunks will be completely helpless as well.

 

[Ss3micah]

Trunks: AP advantage that's hovering near 7.6x, so he can potentially easily incapacitate and one-shot and usage of ki for AoE blasts and barrages of attacks, invisible attack in the form of kiai (though it's out of character)

Yeah pretty much this.

Excalibur Sonic: Soul Surge that functions similarly to Type 2 Immortality due to Soul Surge energy being reduced when taking a hit rather than Sonic dying when his "rings" hit 0, far superior skill/agility/maneuverability, analytical/evasive and counterattack based fighting style, has seen and dealt with nearly everything Trunks has minus the kiai, and his Danger Sense

Well Soul Surge has it's own fair share of weaknesses

Sonic must have some energy in the Soul Gauge in order to activate Soul Surge. Also, while active, sonic can keep using the Soul Surge for as long as he has energy in the Soul Gauge and finally sonic's energy in the Soul Gauge will decrease when Soul Surge is used, and if it runs out Soul Surge will end

That means depending on how much soul energy sonic starts with at the beginning of the fight may or may not be able to activate soul surge and even then it's not a permanent boost, only a temporary increase that trunks could more than likely outlast by keeping sonic at by with Shockwaves, Ki Waves or Barrier. And also Trunks is no fool nor no slouch when it comes to dodging

Also I don't think we can assume soul surge pseudo immortality type 2 would protect Sonic from one shot worthy AP, just saying

You were the one who mainly brought AP up again. Which isn't bad! I just kinda dropped the AP matter already because even I argued their upscaling kinda cancels each other out lol. It's a skill match.

Alright then
If were going skill route then it can go either way if I'm being completely honest

Sonic Most likely outskills but Trunks can keep him away with AoE attacks that sonic can't risk himself being caught in

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sonic must have some energy in the Soul Gauge in order to activate Soul Surge. Also, while active, sonic can keep using the Soul Surge for as long as he has energy in the Soul Gauge and finally sonic's energy in the Soul Gauge will decrease when Soul Surge is used, and if it runs out Soul Surge will end

That means depending on how much soul energy sonic starts with at the beginning of the fight may or may not be able to activate soul surge and even then it's not a permanent boost, only a temporary increase that trunks could more than likely outlast by keeping sonic at by with Shockwaves, Ki Waves or Barrier. And also Trunks is no fool nor no slouch when it comes to dodging

I mentioned ot earlier in the thread, but Sonic has several means of getting Soul Surge energy. By running (yes, just running. It's a skill), counterattack (which his entire fighting style is based on), harming enemies, and killing them. Soul Surge energy isn't going to be an issue.

Also I don't think we can assume soul surge pseudo immortality type 2 would protect Sonic from one shot worthy AP, just saying

Yeah, you can. It's all just dependent on how it functions. For Sonic, no matter the attack, it only takes a set amount away and nothing more. So in Sonic's case it does. In other cases, it might not. All Immortality types vary heavily, it's case-by case.

If were going skill route then it can go either way if I'm being completely honest

Likely not. Sonic's skill is fsr above Trunks. He's fought beings that have existed since the dawn of time, primordial and time immemorial beings, has beaten machines and robots alike made to directly counteract his fighting style and movements, etc. Trunks pales in comparison, though he's absolutely no slouch. DBS has better skill to compare.

Sonic Most likely outskills but Trunks can keep him away with AoE attacks that sonic can't risk himself being caught in

True, but then that really only leads to Trunks wearing himself down eventually. Sonic's never shown exhaustion from hours to literal days of adventuring. You could say it'd almost be lile an Android 17 vs Piccolo situation if you wanna get at it.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Excalibur Sonic FRA

 

[Ss3micah]

I mentioned ot earlier in the thread, but Sonic has several means of getting Soul Surge energy. By running (yes, just running. It's a skill), counterattack (which his entire fighting style is based on), harming enemies, and killing them. Soul Surge energy isn't going to be an issue.

All True but I have seen first hand (actually from let's plays Lol) the rate that Bar charges so yeah while sonic has efficient ways of getting it back he's still not gonna get it all back and once and is gonna have to wait patiently for it to charge up regardless. And even then If sonic starts the battle with empty gauge, Trunks can Bull Rush with AP Onslaught and even then if sonic runs out which he will eventually (and trunks can definitely outlast it) sonic will be open for a few moments before he can go back into it again

Yeah, you can. It's all just dependent on how it functions. For Sonic, no matter the attack, it only takes a set amount away and nothing more. So in Sonic's case it does. In other cases, it might not. All Immortality types vary heavily, it's case-by case.

Welp. Trunks will just have to wait it out which he can easily do with Shockwaves and Ki waves and when sonics drops out, Ki Wave Onslaught before he jumps back in. That's his best bet

Likely not. Sonic's skill is fsr above Trunks. He's fought beings that have existed since the dawn of time, primordial and time immemorial beings, has beaten machines and robots alike made to directly counteract his fighting style and movements, etc. Trunks pales in comparison, though he's absolutely no slouch. DBS has better skill to compare.

I mean despite sonics EXP he has been taken advantage off, caught off guard and overwhelmed by other characters so all sonics experience is no reason why Trunks can't get a lucky shot in (which is all he needs) and his chances increases exponentially with Ki Attacks

True, but then that really only leads to Trunks wearing himself down eventually. Sonic's never shown exhaustion from hours to literal days of adventuring. You could say it'd almost be lile an Android 17 vs Piccolo situation if you wanna get at it.

Yeah
So now we have finally reached sudden death

Either sonic tires down Trunks enough to create an opportunity and go in for the kill or Trunks one shots Sonic first

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That means nothing. As you said to me in the Sonic and Knuckles v Goku and Piccolo thread, none of that really means anything. Frieza is a notoriously cocky villain (which isn't to fully discredit him being higher in AP) so it's not like the guy needs to be SO far above what Goku was.

You can even argue the same thing for Excalibur Sonic, who got effortlessly shitstomped by Merlina when in Base and then proceeded to do the shitstomping when he transformed. Not to mention Sonic ALREADY massively upscales from his value through repeatedly training and groeing stronger through each installment (DBZ style, funnily enough). So at worst they upscale similar amounts from their respective values, and if anything Sonic has a greater scaling chain above his value.

If the armor didn't increase Sonic's durability, there would be no point in having it. The armor isn't just treated as something cosmetic.

Already went over this.

Far superior skill, can keep up with people just as skilled AND as agile as him on a regular basis, can casually beat machines that are specifically created to counter him and his combat style, has seen everything Trunks has to offer and more except for kiai, multiple evasive techniques specifically used to increase his dodging and maneuverability, and etc.

I don't remember what I said in that thread. 7.6x difference + scaling >>>>>>> above his value means a lot, even if sonic also scales above his value, that Ap gap negates all this. This is also >>> for sonic, but trunks also has >>> and a 7.6 ap gap.
the armour might as well be cosmetic if it didn't negate close the gap in value.
Okay, so trunks lands one attack can cut through sonic like butter or vaporize correct?
What's his skill again? Okay I see, but I don't see anything that would allow sonic to definitively dodge all trunks' attacks, trunks just has so many ways to hit sonic, he'll definitely land one attack. Sorry I was sleep.

 

[Ss3micah]

I don't remember what I said in that thread. 7.6x difference + scaling >>>>>>> above his value means a lot, even if sonic also scales above his value, that Ap gap negates all this. This is also >>> for sonic, but trunks also has >>> and a 7.6 ap gap.
the armour might as well be cosmetic if it didn't negate close the gap in value.
Okay, so trunks lands one attack can cut through sonic like butter or vaporize correct?
What's his skill again? Okay I see, but I don't see anything that would allow sonic to definitively dodge all trunks' attacks, trunks just has so many ways to hit sonic, he'll definitely land one attack. Sorry I was sleep.

Honestly the AP scaling at least a mess and at most a complete wreck

Sonic upscales from from 32 T while Trunks upscales from 244 T
There is nothing but pure speculations (or at least nothing accurate) to suggest that Sonic's scaling would allow him to jump from 32 T to 244 T and even then Trunks would still scale super significantly above 244 T and assuming that Sonic would scale to THAT level is also pure speculation without further exposition

You'd have to really REALLY REALLY squint at it to even call their APs equal based on pretty much no solid basis. In the general view of things though Trunks definitely holds the AP advantage, whether its one shot worthy or not is HIGHLY DEBATABLE since you know UPSCALING but its more rational assume that Trunks hold the AP rather than them being equal.

Sonics only real way to win is to tire trunks out and constantly chip at his health till the opportunity presents itself for sonic to OKO trunks and Trunks way to win is to Rapid Spam Ki Attacks and AoE Attacks and hopes he manages to hit sonic at least once (while sonic isn't using Surge Soul to amp his movements and reactions and durability (then again soul surge doesn't last long anyways so yeah))

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Honestly the AP scaling at least a mess and at most a complete wreck

Sonic upscales from from 32 T while Trunks upscales from 244 T
There is nothing but pure speculations (or at least nothing accurate) to suggest that Sonic's scaling would allow him to jump from 32 T to 244 T and even then Trunks would still scale super significantly above 244 T and assuming that Sonic would scale to THAT level is also pure speculation without further exposition

You'd have to really REALLY REALLY squint at it to even call their APs equal based on pretty much no solid basis. In the general view of things though Trunks definitely holds the AP advantage, whether its one shot worthy or not is HIGHLY DEBATABLE since you know UPSCALING but its more rational assume that Trunks hold the AP rather than them being equal.

Sonics only real way to win is to tire trunks out and constantly chip at his health till the opportunity presents itself for sonic to OKO trunks and Trunks way to win is to Rapid Spam Ki Attacks and AoE Attacks and hopes he manages to hit sonic at least once (while sonic isn't using Surge Soul to amp his movements and reactions and durability (then again soul surge doesn't last long anyways so yeah))

Trunks' win con is like, hitting sonic once? Sonic's win condition is what again? How can he one hit trunks?

 

[Ss3micah]

Trunks' win con is like, hitting sonic once?

Pretty much as Trunks attacks are above sonic's paygrade. Any attack from trunks will at least do serious damage and at most insta-kill him

Sonic's win condition is what again? How can he one hit trunks?

Sonic has lots of speed, agility, mobility and experience edges over trunks. He can use those to keep trunks from hitting him with a solid attack and just rope trunks into tiring himself out. Then when the chance arrives he can use the excalibur to slice trunks in two (if its AP is relatively greater than Trunks durability (which I kind of doubt) and if it doesn't have the AP to slice/pierce Trunks' Durability sonic is going to have to find other methods)

 

[deonment]

He can chip trunks down as you said before, cause the point at which chip stops working doesn't come into play here because of how big the ap diff needs to be, also if he starts to get cuts that make him bleed he can just bleed out, which would also make it harder for him to beat sonic given blood loss affecting him,

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Pretty much as Trunks attacks are above sonic's paygrade. Any attack from trunks will at least do serious damage and at most insta-kill him

Sonic has lots of speed, agility, mobility and experience edges over trunks. He can use those to keep trunks from hitting him with a solid attack and just rope trunks into tiring himself out. Then when the chance arrives he can use the excalibur to slice trunks in two (if its AP is relatively greater than Trunks durability (which I kind of doubt) and if it doesn't have the AP to slice/pierce Trunks' Durability sonic is going to have to find other methods)

I see so sonic can only run around and outlast? He does have limitless stamina, so that's good. But that's not gonna happen, first up trunks one shots, second sonic can't even cut trunks because of AP, third there is no way trunks won't land one attack, he has too many opportunities to, and if push comes to shove, kiai GG.

 

[Ss3micah]

He can chip trunks down as you said before, cause the point at which chip stops working doesn't come into play here because of how big the ap diff needs to be, also if he starts to get cuts that make him bleed he can just bleed out, which would also make it harder for him to beat sonic given blood loss affecting him,

That's correct. He could possibly slice an artery or something that will make trunks bleed out
Except your forgetting one little detail
Any proficient Ki user can use Ki to vastly strengthen their toughness and density of their skin, bone and entirety of their body and this has been shown numerous times throughout the series to counteract piercing attacks as well. So while I agree that sonic may be able to put cuts on Trunks, it's gonna be really difficult to slice Trunks deep enough to injure a vein or artery, especially when you consider that it would have to be concentrated sword slice and speed is equal so he'd leave himself open to attack from trunks which could potentially kill him

I.E. It's a gamble that may or may not work based on multiple elements and with every chance of opportunity their is also a chance of extreme risk

 

[ShakeResounding]

All True but I have seen first hand (actually from let's plays Lol) the rate that Bar charges so yeah while sonic has efficient ways of getting it back he's still not gonna get it all back and once and is gonna have to wait patiently for it to charge up regardless. And even then If sonic starts the battle with empty gauge, Trunks can Bull Rush with AP Onslaught and even then if sonic runs out which he will eventually (and trunks can definitely outlast it) sonic will be open for a few moments before he can go back into it again

That bull rush is gonna be entirely ineffective when Sonic just counters everything Trunks has to offer. Not to mention Sonic doesn't need the entire Soul Gauge to be filled to have it kick into action, he just needs above a tiny threshold.

Welp. Trunks will just have to wait it out which he can easily do with Shockwaves and Ki waves and when sonics drops out, Ki Wave Onslaught before he jumps back in. That's his best bet

This isn't a visual thing. Trunks isn't gonna know what he's "waiting out", so he's not gonna wait anything out.

I mean despite sonics EXP he has been taken advantage off, caught off guard and overwhelmed by other characters so all sonics experience is no reason why Trunks can't get a lucky shot in (which is all he needs) and his chances increases exponentially with Ki Attacks

That's happened by people far more skilled than Trunks, yes, and often with new gimmicks and things he didn't expect. Trunks has none of those luxuries.

first up trunks one shots

Not with Soul Surge, which Sonic is gonna reap so much of from Trunks due to the way he fights.

second sonic can't even cut trunks because of AP

Discussed this in length above, not true

third there is no way trunks won't land one attack, he has too many opportunities to

Not a chance. Sonic's seen everything Trunks has and has dealt with far more at once. Trunks pales in comparison to character's he's fought before, ALL Trunks has is AP at this point. And Sonic's cautious, analytical fighting is kicked up to eleven in this key to boot.

and if push comes to shove, kiai GG

So vastly out of character that I'm not even gonna factor this in. Not to mention Sonic's Danger Sense will cover his ass when his eyes can't even if he DOES use it, which is already vastly unlikely.

A lot of these are just regurgitated round-about arguments, so I'm probably not gonna respond to the same things by this point.

 

[Ss3micah]

I see so sonic can only run around and outlast? He does have limitless stamina, so that's good.

That's sonics best and safest bet

But that's not gonna happen, first up trunks one shots, second sonic can't even cut trunks because of AP, third there is no way trunks won't land one attack, he has too many opportunities to, and if push comes to shove, kiai GG.

Trunks landing a hit may or may not happen before sonic tires him out. It all depends on how careful sonic is, how much risk he is willing to take and how quickly he could possibly evade nigh-unavoidable shockwaves/Ki waves when trying to harm Trunks

 

[deonment]

That's correct. He could possibly slice an artery or something that will make trunks bleed out
Except your forgetting one little detail
Any proficient Ki user can use Ki to vastly strengthen their toughness and density of their skin, bone and entirety of their body and this has been shown numerous times throughout the series to counteract piercing attacks as well. So while I agree that sonic may be able to put cuts on Trunks, it's gonna be really difficult to slice Trunks deep enough to injure a vein or artery, especially when you consider that it would have to be concentrated sword slice and speed is equal so he'd leave himself open to attack from trunks which could potentially kill him

I.E. It's a gamble that may or may not work based on multiple elements and with every chance of opportunity their is also a chance of extreme risk

i actually didnt know that, the more you know

 

[Theuser789]

Excalibur FRA

 

[Js250476]

King Arthur fra