Yan Sen Re-evaluation CRT

[TheGreatJedi13]

Currently there is a new profile https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yan_Sen_(Manhua)#Abilities


Upon checking the crt

https://vsbattles.com/threads/verse-addition-cultivator-against-hero-society.150463/

There is some serious issue with this.

Firstly while DDM agreed with the Zarathustra. He also said he is not knowledgable in tier 1.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/verse-addition-cultivator-against-hero-society.150463/post-5555637

Damage commented and agreed in the middle with the blog but not with the profile and even then after his agreement the profile was changed multiple times. If you read the conversation afterwards his comment

https://vsbattles.com/threads/verse-addition-cultivator-against-hero-society.150463/post-5551567

And lastly Zarathustra although he agreed with the tier he himself claimed he doesn't agree wholeheartedly which should have called for more evaluation for tier 1 expert.

So the thread not only got accepted with 2 staff vote it also has some unsure voting from someone knowledgeable in the series notably Zarathustra.


Therefore I'm making this CRT to call for more evaluation while also putting my own evaluation regarding the scans and such

This explanation page will be relevant here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Quintessence_PE/Cultivator_Against_Hero_Society

Now lets begin

Firstly the first Key rating uses the same argument as the 2nd key low 1-C rating.
and these are the scans for it



Now the universe being platelets within him would qualify for 2-B or higher this would pretty much qualify as this is blatant but why is this low 1-C is something odd. so we're moving to the next scans
Now the bigger one would be how he was able to manipulate the entire universe to appear as a plane and where he twisted Henry as well.
There are two possible interpretation for this since this is a visual interpretation.
1. He only twisted and appeared larger on the spatial part of the universe
2. The flat plane was the entire universe including the time within it.
Now i would lean more on 2nd option here due to the fact that similar scans of universe were used to argue universes and multiverse in size and since each platelet of him is basically infinite universe in size that pretty much makes it more logical to assume each universe has separate spacetime rather than under one spacetime.
This would indeed qualify him as 4D and being able to make it appear like 2 dimensional is indeed for me sufficient for low 1-C rating. although whats weird about this is that it is called 4th dimensional world. which kinda doesn't make sense if we are to rate it as low 1-C it might be a contradiction but atm im leaning more to the 2nd interpretation as for the reason i listed above regarding blood platelets etc.
Thus i believe the Low 1-C rating is valid

1-B​

now this one I'm not fully agreeing as a valid rating for multiple reasons.
Firstly we see Henry making a 12 dimensional space to lock someone out

Currently this is vague and assuming that the small sphere he is holding is 12 dimensional and somehow it exist as being contained on whatever universe they are within would be a contradiction as this should normally be impossible.
So we check the explanation page
Which doesn't have anything further than the same scan.
so what we have left is this scan that is given to me in discord and i found in the past CRT

Now this does not explain the higher dimension at all only that they exist.
So we'll list down possible ways this vague higher dimension can qualify

Fully sized - the 12 dimension isn't shown as fully sized and as i said it was even contained within the universe where Henry used it to seal the woman which then the woman somehow manage to interact while sealed within it. If this is truly 12 dimensional it would require extensive feat for the communication to even pass through. which acts more as a counter argument than an argument that qualifies the woman to have 12 dimensional Telepathy.

Hence, a higher-dimensional entity can be both stronger or weaker than a lower-dimensional one, and thus, they are usually quantified based on their own feats, instead of dimensionality alone. If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well.

Ontological difference - There isn't much explanation regarding the ontological difference of higher dimension compared to the lower one. only that they exist. although we got confirmation on how the 4th dimension works assuming this is true to all higher dimension would be a stretch to say the least specially how the 4th dimension on itself wasn't explained pretty much in detail. other than it views the universe as flat and Henry can be twisted within it before he actually breaks through it and escape.

R>F transcendence - Yan Sen cannot qualify for this because he also exist in the same narrative he has full plot control thus therefore he is disqualified to gain higher rating from this and even if he does qualify this only applies to the fully sized dimension he resides in being superior to it

However, this is not the case for every setting. In certain situations, we would not grant a R>F Transcendence to those who exist in the 'real world' compared to the game. Whether we do or not, it has to do with the perspective of the story.

Ref. Reality Fiction transcendence page

Conclusion.​

1-B Rating should be reviewed properly if note removed and or be given an unknown rating due to lacking further feat on what is the capability of this 12 dimensional seal

 

[Larssx]

Now lets begin

Firstly the first Key rating uses the same argument as the 2nd key low 1-C rating.
and these are the scans for it



Now the universe being platelets within him would qualify for 2-B or higher this would pretty much qualify as this is blatant but why is this low 1-C is something odd. so we're moving to the next scans

First of all, this irrelevant
The universes within Yan Sen have infinite size.
If you have more than one infinitely size Low 2-C universes inside a blood platelets, that makes the blood platelets 2-A and then we can say him body Low 1-c. because even one blood platelet is 2-A.

1-B
now this one I'm not fully agreeing as a valid rating for multiple reasons.​

Firstly we see Henry making a 12 dimensional space to lock someone out

Currently this is vague and assuming that the small sphere he is holding is 12 dimensional and somehow it exist as being contained on whatever universe they are within would be a contradiction as this should normally be impossible.
So we check the explanation page
Which doesn't have anything further than the same scan.
so what we have left is this scan that is given to me in discord and i found in the past CRT

This is wrong again
First of all, it's not just a 12-dimensional thing, it's a 12-dimensional space.
.

The author already knows the difference between dimensions and dimensional, and the creation of high dimensional worlds by the ancient heros is an example of this.
Also, what Henry's holding is the universe.

Since it is a 12-dimensional universe, there is no problem with it being "Likely 1-B".

 

[Georredannea15]

Hell no, First of all, one of the ways in which such higher dimensions are accepted is that the author shows in the verse that he knows the dimensional planes and the higher dimensions.

Because in the verse, the writer refers to 4-D universes as "higher dimensions" and spatial plane as directly "dimensional."(According to Wiki, 4D and above dimensions are higher dimensions)

From this we understand that the writer has know spatial planes, higher dimensions and universal dimensions.

2- As for Low1-C, Yan sen's blood tropsins alone contain more than one universe, all of has infinite size.

According to Ultima, structures that contain more than one Low 2C structure and are infinite are quality for 2-A.

In this case, the blood tropsins of the Yan sen are 2-A, and the blood cells alone are cells that contain thousands of 2-A and are larger than them.

By current standards, there is no such baseline bullshit beyond 2-A. That's why they buy Low1c directly

 

[ShionAH]

Hell no, First of all, one of the ways in which such higher dimensions are accepted is that the author shows in the verse that he knows the dimensional planes and the higher dimensions.

Because in the verse, the writer refers to 4-D universes as "higher dimensions" and spatial plane as directly "dimensional."

From this we understand that the writer has know spatial planes, higher dimensions and universal dimensions.

2- As for Low1-C, Yan sen's blood tropsins alone contain more than one universe, all of has infinite size.

According to Ultima, structures that contain more than one Low 2C structure and are infinite are quality for 2-A.

In this case, the blood tropsins of the Yan sen are 2-A, and the blood cells alone are cells that contain thousands of 2-A and are larger than them.

By current standards, there is no such baseline bullshit beyond 2-A. That's why they buy Low1c directly

 

[Hajunn]

disagree, following

 

[Georredannea15]

Hell man, there's going to be a lot of blood going to be shed here

 

[Barbar01]

Lars make sense. I disagree with OP

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

First of all, this irrelevant
The universes within Yan Sen have infinite size.
If you have more than one infinitely size Low 2-C universes inside a blood platelets, that makes the blood platelets 2-A and then we can say him body Low 1-c. because even one blood platelet is 2-A.

a high 3-A universe isn't 2-A if you include time

This is wrong again
First of all, it's not just a 12-dimensional thing, it's a 12-dimensional space.
.

The author already knows the difference between dimensions and dimensional, and the creation of high dimensional worlds by the ancient heros is an example of this.
Also, what Henry's holding is the universe.

Since it is a 12-dimensional universe, there is no problem with it being "Likely 1-B".

12 dimensional space 12 dimensional cube there is no difference
If the space doesn't qualify for being fully sized it cannot be tierred
if the space doesn't have qualitative superiority with examples listed
it cannot be tierred aside from unknown


And like i said low 1-C is valid. I'm just pointing out how the first key reasoning is insufficient if you do not include the other explanation in his 2nd key

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Hell no, First of all, one of the ways in which such higher dimensions are accepted is that the author shows in the verse that he knows the dimensional planes and the higher dimensions.

Because in the verse, the writer refers to 4-D universes as "higher dimensions" and spatial plane as directly "dimensional."(According to Wiki, 4D and above dimensions are higher dimensions)

From this we understand that the writer has know spatial planes, higher dimensions and universal dimensions.

2- As for Low1-C, Yan sen's blood tropsins alone contain more than one universe, all of has infinite size.

According to Ultima, structures that contain more than one Low 2C structure and are infinite are quality for 2-A.

In this case, the blood tropsins of the Yan sen are 2-A, and the blood cells alone are cells that contain thousands of 2-A and are larger than them.

By current standards, there is no such baseline bullshit beyond 2-A. That's why they buy Low1c directly

then bring ultima here to argue his point as this isn't even in the tier 2 FAQ

the author being aware how higher dimension work is irrelevant if he doesn't properly showcase them as what qualifies for us.

I can be the smartest Mathematician and make a verse mentioning aleph once and above math but it would not instantly grant the verse i made to have higher cardinals unless mentioned

 

[Larssx]

12 dimensional space 12 dimensional cube there is no difference
If the space doesn't qualify for being fully sized it cannot be tierred
if the space doesn't have qualitative superiority with examples listed
it cannot be tierred aside from unknown

We are talking about a universe with 12 spatial dimensions, this would make 1-B.
If it had said "dimensions" you would have been right, but here it is exactly said "dimensional".
And the author has already used high-dimensional universes before.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

We are talking about a universe with 12 spatial dimensions, this would make 1-B.
If it had said "dimensions" you would have been right, but here it is exactly said "dimensional".
And the author has already used high-dimensional universes before.

again being dimensional or saying 12 dimension has no bearing when it comes to meaning as they portray similar meaning in the context.

a universe with 12 spatial dimension somehow existing contained on a universe where Earth is

Can you store a 12dimensional universe inside a 4 dimensional one?
again you did not address the contradiction i pointed and the glaring issues with how it is disqualified on multiple front regarding qualitative superiority and full sized

 

[Georredannea15]

then bring ultima here to argue his point as this isn't even in the tier 2 FAQ

Then go and learn the current system.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm sorry but I've re-read the OP several times and don't understand the arguments here. (but it may be due because I'm daze, sorry for that) Although I've read the TLDR at the end and I understand that the 1-B rating seems to be a problem.

again being dimensional or saying 12 dimension has no bearing when it comes to meaning as they portray similar meaning in the context.

a universe with 12 spatial dimension somehow existing contained on a universe where Earth is

Can you store a 12dimensional universe inside a 4 dimensional one?
again you did not address the contradiction i pointed and the glaring issues with how it is disqualified on multiple front regarding qualitative superiority and full sized

Henry is the one creating the 12-dimensional universe. It is portrayed during their final fight that he can create a universe on a whim.

Regarding the superiority of such dimensions, it is said that the goddess is "at the same place" as her comrade or whatever her name was. Yet, both of them couldn't interact with each other nor see each other.

 

[Larssx]

again being dimensional or saying 12 dimension has no bearing when it comes to meaning as they portray similar meaning in the context.

If it's called dimensional, it's relevant.
If it only said dimensions, it was not.

again you did not address the contradiction i pointed and the glaring issues with how it is disqualified on multiple front regarding qualitative superiority and full sized

Stop with this qualitative transcendence shit.
For example, in ISSTH, we see that the vast expanse is an infinite-dimensional universe. That's why H1-B.

a universe with 12 spatial dimension somehow existing contained on a universe where Earth is

Can you store a 12dimensional universe inside a 4 dimensional one?

Henry's space is 12D, but we've never seen Henry's space in our universe.
What Henry's holding is more like a device to send someone into his own space.

 

[Larssx]

If it is called just dimensions, you can ask for qualitative transcendence between them because it is not clear what they are
But our expression says 12 dimensional space.
All we need are sample expressions for high-dimensional things in the series, and we already have them.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I'm just pointing out how the first key reasoning is insufficient if you do not include the other explanation in his 2nd key

You are wrong, this feat gives low1c, we can discuss this as much as you want, but in the current system this is accepted and you can ask any staff person you want because the staff also accept this.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You are wrong, this feat gives low1c, we can discuss this as much as you want, but in the current system this is accepted and you can ask any staff person you want because the staff also accept this.

Staff which I mentioned in the OP claims to be not knowledgeable in Tier 1
Only Zarathustra agreed with low 1-C fully and DDM only agreed as per Zarathustra agreed upon which was before Zarathustra addressed tierring as the whole focus of Zarathustra at that time was the Page being horribly done.
that isn't enough to get accepted

Henry's space is 12D, but we've never seen Henry's space in our universe.
What Henry's holding is more like a device to send someone into his own space.

Good argument but what makes it a device and not the universe itself. specially how the woman even commented "what is that. a golden universe?"

Then go and learn the current system.

ok

If it's called dimensional, it's relevant.
If it only said dimensions, it was not.


Stop with this qualitative transcendence shit.
For example, in ISSTH, we see that the vast expanse is an infinite-dimensional universe. That's why H1-B.

again that is irrelevant I can call something 15-dimensional universe but if it doesn't qualify for the standards it won't get a tier
also do not argue with whataboutism.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Good argument but what makes it a device and not the universe itself. specially how the woman even commented "what is that. a golden universe?"

Actually you are still thinking wrong because even if it is a 12 dimensional space you can shrink it by dimensional manipulation and fit it into a 4 dimensional universe. for example it was the size of the palm of Henry's hand and Aphrodite can't understand what it is, she just asks if it is a black hole or a universe because of its external shape.

For example: Yan Sen already has the large size type 10 and his body contains the multiverse, but he can shrink himself and enter the 4-dimensional universe and be found here, in the same way henry can shrink his 12-dimensional space, there is no obstacle to this because all the gods already have their own universes, but only henry's is specifically called 12-dimensional, and it is normal for henry to shrink his space to this size.

 

[Larssx]

Good argument but what makes it a device and not the universe itself. specially how the woman even commented "what is that. a golden universe?"

Yes, it looks like that from the outside, but he's using this device to get people into this space.
And we can see that space contains stars.
So we assume that this is the case.

again that is irrelevant I can call something 15-dimensional universe but if it doesn't qualify for the standards it won't get a tier
also do not argue with whataboutism.

Well do I have to repeat this forever...
It's dimensional, not dimension.
A universe with 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension is considered Low 2-c.
With 12 spatial dimensions, it would naturally be 1-B.

 

[Malekith]

following

 

[RaveeCPN]

H-how can this be? How did they say Yan Sen is 1-B...

Your arguments are trash asf btw, I disagree

 

[Blackcurrant91]

There was no staff knowledgable on tier 1 stuff in the first thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with OP.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Actually you are still thinking wrong because even if it is a 12 dimensional space you can shrink it by dimensional manipulation and fit it into a 4 dimensional universe. for example it was the size of the palm of Henry's hand and Aphrodite can't understand what it is, she just asks if it is a black hole or a universe because of its external shape.

For example: Yan Sen already has the large size type 10 and his body contains the multiverse, but he can shrink himself and enter the 4-dimensional universe and be found here, in the same way henry can shrink his 12-dimensional space, there is no obstacle to this because all the gods already have their own universes, but only henry's is specifically called 12-dimensional, and it is normal for henry to shrink his space to this size.

I don't see a problem, we have explained the necessary arguments and answers in this thread. there is still no counter argument to the arguments we have presented.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Nothing directly confirms the argument you presented except by assumption and guesswork. So it holds the same weigh as other interpretation

I don't see a problem, we have explained the necessary arguments and answers in this thread. there is still no counter argument to the arguments we have presented.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Nothing directly confirms the argument you presented except by assumption and guesswork. So it holds the same weigh as other interpretation

Dude this is not a conjecture, if Henry can hold this space, he must have shrunk this space, so the argument I am presenting to you is not a conjecture, it is a fact.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

A human-sized person cannot hold the universe directly in his hands in a small form, he has to shrink it, and in this scene we see Henry holding this 12-dimensional space as a human-sized person, and the only explanation for this is that Henry has shrunk this space.
If Herny hadn't shrunk this space, it would have been impossible for him to hold it in his hand in small form because henry was the same size as a human being.

 

[SweetDao]

Actually, as I said above, this is not the first time Henry can hold something "universe sized" despite it being shrunk down, he does that pretty regularly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't get the argument with shrinking universe as it holds any weight here. It is simply AP + spatial manipulation here.

 

[SweetDao]

I don't get the argument with shrinking universe as it holds any weight here. It is simply AP + spatial manipulation here.

It appeared to me that it was one of the arguments the OP used against the rating, so I just tried to show it's not something that can be used as Henry proved to be doing that and in no way does the "shrunk down" universe wasn't universe sized somehow.

a universe with 12 spatial dimension somehow existing contained on a universe where Earth is

Can you store a 12dimensional universe inside a 4 dimensional one?
again you did not address the contradiction i pointed and the glaring issues with how it is disqualified on multiple front regarding qualitative superiority and full sized

 

[ImmortalDread]

He weirdly reworded this time (won't change my stance anyway)

Despite the absence of empirical substantiation for the capacity to contain a higher-dimensional universe within a lower-dimensional realm, it is presently untenable to categorize this proposition as contradictory.

By virtue of this argument presented, there is no inherent violation of logical principles that would warrant such a designation.

In order to accommodate a 12-dimensional universe within a 4-dimensional space, several conditions would need to be met.

• One possibility is that the extra dimensions of the 12-dimensional universe would need to be compactified or somehow “hidden” within the 4-dimensional space in a way that allows them to exist but not be directly observable.

The exact mechanisms and properties of such a scenario would need to be defined within the verse framework. In the absence of additional context or definition within the verse framework, it will become impracticable to categorize the given proposition.

 

[Malekith]

He weirdly reworded this time (won't change my stance anyway)

Despite the absence of empirical substantiation for the capacity to contain a higher-dimensional universe within a lower-dimensional realm, it is presently untenable to categorize this proposition as contradictory.

By virtue of this argument presented, there is no inherent violation of logical principles that would warrant such a designation.

In order to accommodate a 12-dimensional universe within a 4-dimensional space, several conditions would need to be met.

• One possibility is that the extra dimensions of the 12-dimensional universe would need to be compactified or somehow “hidden” within the 4-dimensional space in a way that allows them to exist but not be directly observable.

The exact mechanisms and properties of such a scenario would need to be defined within the verse framework. In the absence of additional context or definition within the verse framework, it will become impracticable to categorize the given proposition.

I didn't understand your points

 

[SweetDao]

I didn't understand your points

Same

 

[ImmortalDread]

In short, it is “possible” but it requires a de facto evidence for such setting in verse.

(were my points that hard to comprehend? I mean, you are guys talking currently about the most complicated topics in physics and scientific theories)

 

[Georredannea15]

He weirdly reworded this time (won't change my stance anyway)

Despite the absence of empirical substantiation for the capacity to contain a higher-dimensional universe within a lower-dimensional realm, it is presently untenable to categorize this proposition as contradictory.

By virtue of this argument presented, there is no inherent violation of logical principles that would warrant such a designation.

In order to accommodate a 12-dimensional universe within a 4-dimensional space, several conditions would need to be met.

• One possibility is that the extra dimensions of the 12-dimensional universe would need to be compactified or somehow “hidden” within the 4-dimensional space in a way that allows them to exist but not be directly observable.

The exact mechanisms and properties of such a scenario would need to be defined within the verse framework. In the absence of additional context or definition within the verse framework, it will become impracticable to categorize the given proposition.

The problem is that the 12-dimensional space was already opened by Henry's hand. And these characters have exhibited abilities such as manipulating such higher dimensions on multiple feats in the verse before.

Also,the fact that this 12-dimensional space didn't appear until Henry came...

In fact, these are things that refute the "contradiction" in every way.


But naturally I can understand the point and the doubt you are talking about

 

[ImmortalDread]

In fact, these are things that refute the "contradiction" in every way.

Despite the absence of empirical substantiation for the capacity to contain a higher-dimensional universe within a lower-dimensional realm, it is presently untenable to categorize this proposition as contradictory. By virtue of this argument presented, there is no inherent violation of logical principles that would warrant such a designation.

 

[SweetDao]

In short, it is “possible” but it requires a de facto evidence for such setting in verse.

(were my points that hard to comprehend? I mean, you are guys talking currently about the most complicated topics in physics and scientific theories)

So your point was "It is possible to have a 12D universe inside a 4D universe, but it requires proof within the verse?"

Or maybe Henry's universe just doesn't exist in the same reality/layer as the mainstream one? It was shown that spatial coordinates seem to be the same as the regular ones but that could just mean Henry's own space replicates the universe and since he was shown being able to manipulate it as he wishes, it's not impossible to assume so.

I don't think it is nonsensical to assume it's Henry's own space in the first place and as such isn't inherent to the mainstream universe. He was quite literally the one bringing the 12D stuff.

 

[Malekith]

If you didn't say that he was human-sized I would have assumed that he grew to such a size that he surpassed 12 dimensions to hold it in a single hand.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you didn't say that he was human-sized I would have assumed that he grew to such a size that he surpassed 12 dimensions to hold it in a single hand.

I said this in @Quintessence_PE dms and will say it again

there is no evidence that higher dimensions necessarily imply larger physical spaces or expanded spatial extents. There is no inherent connection between dimensionality and size. It is possible to have higher-dimensional spaces that are incredibly small or even infinitesimal in size. The notion of size becomes relative and depends on the context in which the dimensions are defined.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Yeah

No