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Xeno Goku takes on another God. This time a G O A T (8-12-0)

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Andytrenom said:
@Ricsi Unless you want to argue being infinitely above a 2-C put you above a 2-B I really don't think it works like that.
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Being infinitly above a 2-C is still 2-A.

The only reason why being infinitely above Low 2-C isn't 2-A is because the amount of energy needed to cross the space between dimensions/timelines is unknown. If we are talking about 2-C, that isn't a factor because the energy needed to breach it was already achieved.
 
I...can see your point. Tho going by the current standards of the site, I don't think we can actually apply this logic.

So yeah pretty sure Goku would still have the AP advantage here.
 
There are numerous questions I have for this debate since I'm getting conflicting answers for both sides:

  • Who holds the AP advantage?
  • Does Goku's Acausality allow him to be aware of Time Resets?
  • Does SAVE & LOAD work if the entire multiverse AND Asriel are destroyed?
  • How often is Asriel likely to use SAVE & LOAD and/or his soul hax IN THIS FORM? Other forms or characters are irrelevant, what is the mindset of this character in this form.
If the answer to the following questions is, "Asriel, No, Yes, and Asriel spams it", then why are you voting for Asriel when such a fight would clearly be a stomp?

I'd like people from both sides to bring evidence for their case, as "he said, she said" isn't an effective way to reach a proper conclusion to this fight.

Please response with haste, thank you.
 
  • Does Goku's Acausality allow him to be aware of Time Resets?
Yes. Frisk could, and that's what type 1 does.

  • Does SAVE & LOAD work if the entire multiverse AND Asriel are destroyed?
No. Destroying his determination would be an uninmaginable pain however. And it wouldn't work because it's determination that gives that power to begin with.

  • How often is Asriel likely to use SAVE & LOAD and/or his soul hax IN THIS FORM? Other forms or characters are irrelevant, what is the mindset of this character in this form.
Since he coudln't use it in this form due to frisk negging it, there is no showcase of it. However, he likes to spam his stuff and has absolutely no reason to keep going on in a fight with goku, so he would at least use it for stuff like adjusting the aim of his attacks by predicting where he'd dodge.
 
Destroying the Multiverse *would* work.

Stating it won't by saying without showing a feat of Asriel coming back from such does not fly.
 
FateAlbane said:
Pretty much. SAVE/LOAD works much more like a mix of type 8 and Resurrection reliant on pre-existent timelines created prior to death or mid-battle.
...If it allowed people to come back from no timeline whatsoever and had any possible feats of allowing its users to come back post total multiversal obliteration along with themselves (unless it's Absolute Chara because lolAbstraction/lolreliantOnTheAnomaly's_PlayersDT), Asriel would straight up have High-Godly Regen in his profile by now since that would mean the ability really doesn't recquire anything else to work. The tiers of the verse in itself are where they are because we consider SAVE files = timelines. You bust them all along the user, no Loading is happening because there's nothing there nor any point in time to LOAD to.

Thus, unless evidence and a feat comes along for such an implied level of survivability, this point is moot. Either someone shows Asriel coming back from being destroyed alongside his multiverse and the very things he needs to use for resurrection, or he can't.

I should also mention that Asriel doesn't abuse SAVE/LOAD anywhere near as much as he's given credit for. He does not weaponize it like Omega Flowey at all.

In fact, though his files are there, he doesn't spam SAVE/LOAD scumming anywhere. Even less than that: He doesn't use it once throughout the entire fight as far as I can remember. Soul Absorption is the same thing. He only used it to reach his current form and never again. So, while my own point said "Goku will eventually nuke once he runs out of options/after seeing reset happen" , Asriel's isn't likely to be pulling any hax barrage on Goku out of nowhere from the get-go either.
Click to expand...
It's obvious that Asriel doesn't have true godly, yes. I never argued that anyways.

Goku's info analysis comes from Future Warrior who can analysis techniques via the scouter. The problem is, it doesn't analyse every ability and hax, just basic techniques. At least goku would know about Asriel's basic danmaku attacks (like shocker breaker and others) and the hypergonner.

1.When does Goku use his info analysys in character anyways? 2.How his Sealing works?

"Asriel doesn't spam save and load in character. He is cocky"


While it's true that he didn't spam it on the pacifist route, the reason why he is cocky is because his fealings towards "Chara". Flowey/Asriel plays with the protagonist for a specific reason. He didn't have control over all time itself during the battle but that's because of Frisk. (he claimed that after deafeating frisk he can do that, and then reset everything) Even photoshop flowey can save and load on different files, and even base flowey can perfom a normal reset. Asriel will not have the same limitations against Xeno Goku for obvious reasons.


"Goku can nuke the multiverse"


Asriel has other methods of incapacitacion before goku would do that as i explained. If danmaku towards his soul is useless, then he will use other methods. Flowey/Asriel isn't dumb (Asriel seing Frisk being somewhat a threat, he uses his hypergonner. Flowey stoled the humans souls which implies that his personality is someone who takes advantage of things and not someone who plays when they are losing). If soul manipulation is useless and weak against Goku, what stops Asriel from using his other stuff?

Save and Load An old point of a timeline Goku's memories wouldn't know a future alternate timeline, so the chance of him considering nuking the multiverse will be "rewinded" (which isn't time rewind btw) as i explained.

Every time Photoshop Flowey loads, the fight goes into that save point of the timeline that it was saved. That "past" of tha timeline becomes the new "present" where the fights takes place. Can a Goku from a old point of a timeline remember what happened on a alternate/another future timeline? This is totally diferent from a time rewind of the same timeline. Maybe you are confusing it with a normal reset which erase the progress and memories from the save file. Save and Load is different.


3. True Reset. That's it. Asriel can perfom this with ease.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
The idea of goku nuking the multiverse is laughable. He will not do that even if it means he would die.
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If that's the only way to win I believe SBA covers that.
 
I wonder how many replies it will take until people understand that I'm not arguing Goku to no end as much as I'm arguing about how SAVE/LOAD is being overhyped beyond reason here. I didn't even argue against Overlord's reply about it and vote for Asriel because it was a sound argument that doesn't rely on it.

@Ricsi If it's something he can do and he runs out of options, no, it's not laughable.
 
Warren Valion said:
Ricsi-viragosi said:
The idea of goku nuking the multiverse is laughable. He will not do that even if it means he would die.
Click to expand...
If that's the only way to win I believe SBA covers that.
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Yeah that's the point of SBA. Otherwise you could say stuff like Batman wouldn't kill his opponent even if it means he would die.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Warren Valion said:
If that's the only way to win I believe SBA covers that.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's the point of SBA. Otherwise you could say stuff like Batman wouldn't kill his opponent even if it means he would die.
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That is not how it works, no. They will have no qualms about killing their enemy. Killing an infinite number of loved ones and friends to win is not something that is forcedd on someone.

A more adeqquate exemple here would be bruce nuking new york to kill an enemy. Out of options or not, he ain't doing that.
 
Pretty sure there are actual canon instances of Goku letting loved ones get screwed up as long as it means they win.

His own son suffering against Cell just so he could get angry to beat him despite the risks. And later in Majin's case I believe when they warped away from the Earth about to be destroyed because "we can wish them back".

He was even Hyped about the ToP just because of strong opponents regardless of entire universes being erased as a result.
 
OOC is still a thing. Goku is way more likely to try literally anything else first.

If you wanted to kill someone and I told you that the only way to kill them is nuking a city you'd do it without a second thought?
 
@Kaltias OOC is a thing for both, so...

@Warren In regards to the Acausality point, I didn't really say "Yes" or "No" myself. I just went along with Yes since that's what the thread had been saying/agreed on at the time.
 
Yeah, those are absolutely not aplicable here. His son getting beaten up was so that there would be another protector for earth in his place.

Destroying all of reality is nothing even remotely comparable to that, he can't fix that amount of damage with a wish.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
That is not how it works, no. They will have no qualms about killing their enemy. Killing an infinite number of loved ones and friends to win is not something that is forcedd on someone.

A more adeqquate exemple here would be bruce nuking new york to kill an enemy. Out of options or not, he ain't doing that.
Click to expand...
This takes place in the real world, an alien universe.

There are no "loved ones", not to mention Goku cares more about winning a fight, then protecting the innocent, and the dragon balls are a thing that exists and can wish people back.
 
Even if goku realizes that he can't kill asriel, asriel would just keep switching timelines like photoshop flowey (if soul manipulation is useless and weak against goku) as i explained above so goku's previous knowledge (which would lead him nuking the multiverse somehow) will be useless.
 
Doesn't matter. They are willing to kill. It's not "willing up to a certain extent of environmental damage". Just willing to kill.

This is literally arguing that a character wouldn't use powers in their arsenal because morals to make them lose a fight.

I could say by that Logic that a lot of superheroes would always lose since it's a 100% in their character to not want to cause great or lethal harm even to their opponents as much as they wouldn't want to bust anything around them.
 
Type 1 acausality allows you to remember, but doesn't prevent being looped.

@Fate

I know. My point is that Goku nuking a multiverse is OOC
 
FateAlbane said:
@Kaltias OOC is a thing for both, so...
@Warren In regards to the Acausality point, I didn't really say "Yes" or "No" myself. I just went along with Yes since that's what the thread had been saying/agreed on at the time.
Click to expand...
Well, okay.

If the answer is no, then what can Goku really do?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
FateAlbane said:
Kaltias OOC is a thing for both, so...
Click to expand...
I already said thrice why saying "asriel didn't do that" isn't aplicable here.
Click to expand...
I already agreed to disagree with that since it basically means taking a speculative point of view over what is shown in the actual game.
 
Kaltias said:
Type 1 acausality allows you to remember, but doesn't prevent being looped.
@Fate

I know. My point is that Goku nuking a multiverse is OOC
Click to expand...
So he'd remember being looped, but he would still be affected by it?

Ok.
 
Warren Valion said:
Well, okay.

If the answer is no, then what can Goku really do?
Click to expand...
If the answer turns out to be no, then probably "nothing" since he wouldn't know about Reset.

But Ricsi is arguing Asriel and he said it's yes. DMB also said so, so I was going with that so far.
 
FateAlbane said:
Doesn't matter. They are willing to kill. It's not "willing up to a certain extent of environmental damage". Just willing to kill.
This is literally arguing that a character wouldn't use powers in their arsenal because morals to make them lose a fight.

I could say by that Logic that a lot of superheroes would always lose since it's a 100% in their character to not want to cause great or lethal harm even to their opponents as much as they wouldn't want to bust anything around them.
Click to expand...
That is not how it works. They are willing to kill the enemy, not destroy everything they ever wanted to protect for a win. That is what bloodlust is for.

Even with SBA they still have morals, they simply won't stop from killing the enemy. If a knight is unwilling to use weapons and would instead go h2h against someone that is unarmed because chivalry, it still aplies. This same reason was why Ultron was winning against Superman, with hostages.

Not causing harm to the oponent is different from not wanting to cause harm to all of reality in a permanent faschion. I don't think he can even survive like that for a prolonged manner.
 
Warren Valion said:
So he'd remember being looped, but he would still be affected by it?

Ok.
Click to expand...
Probably. That's what happened to Frisk when Omega Flowey was using it against them
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
>An infinite number of loved ones
Pretty sure the rules make it so that the only people there are Goku and Asriel.
Click to expand...
Nope. Already discussed, there are people around, they just don't attack unless attacked first, as Dargoo put it.
 
@Ricsi If the option he has of killing Asriel is doing so, that's what he'll do. SBA says so, unless this suddenly changed somehow.

Also battle takes place in a neutral universe either way. If Goku wasn't that worried about Zen'o nuking timelines that weren't his own as long as he could get a good fight out of it, he won't be here.
 
Warren Valion said:
There are numerous questions I have for this debate since I'm getting conflicting answers for both sides:
  • Who holds the AP advantage?
  • Does Goku's Acausality allow him to be aware of Time Resets?
  • Does SAVE & LOAD work if the entire multiverse AND Asriel are destroyed?
  • How often is Asriel likely to use SAVE & LOAD and/or his soul hax IN THIS FORM? Other forms or characters are irrelevant, what is the mindset of this character in this form.
Click to expand...
So from what I got, the answers are:

  • Goku
  • He remembers the resets but is still affected by it.
  • No
  • He never showed to spam SAVE & LOAD in this form. Not entirely sure on how his soul hax works.
 
No it does not. SBA says "The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."

Being willing to kill the oponent and destroying an infinite amount of lifes is not the same thing
 
Kaltias said:
Type 1 acausality allows you to remember, but doesn't prevent being looped.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure it doesn't

Type 1 acasuality is being uneffected by changes in the past

Asriel is rewinding the battle to a previous point and basically resetting Goku to a previous state
 
Soul Hax is a definite yes, he does it to you the entire fight.

SAVE and LOAD he would use if he actually could do it against Frisk, he couldn't use SAVE and LOAD in this form cause Frisk is more determined.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
No it does not. SBA says "The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."Being willing to kill the oponent and destroying an infinite amount of lifes is not the same thing
Click to expand...
1. Goku realizes the only means of killing the opponent is busting the multiverse.

2. He's willing to kill him.

3. Boom, he does it.

SBA says nothing about 'they won't if this involves damaging third parties'. Otherwise, boy do I have a lot of characters I know of that won't be using a lot of their powers in matches.
 
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