Xeno Goku takes on another God. This time a G O A T (8-12-0)

[DragonEmperor23]

>An infinite number of loved ones
Pretty sure the rules make it so that the only people there are Goku and Asriel.

Nope. Already discussed, there are people around, they just don't attack unless attacked first, as Dargoo put it.

So Asriel could pick up a random person and use him as a hostage against Goku? Not saying he would in character, just asking if that's possible.

 

[DMB_1]

Type 1 acausality allows you to remember, but doesn't prevent being looped.

It does. There are characters who have it because of this.

 

[Jinsye]

@Overlord

Frisk and Flowey have type 1 acausality that lets them keep their memories so Goku should keep his too

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So Asriel could pick up a random person and use him as a hostage against Goku? Not saying he would in character, just asking if that's possible.

He could, yeah. He couzld also absorb the souls of the poor peeps around, but they don1t have DT so I don't know what it would amount to.

 

[Warren_Valion]

No it does not. SBA says "The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."
Being willing to kill the oponent and destroying an infinite amount of lifes is not the same thing

Goku doesn't give a shit.

Where are you getting this "protector of the innocent mentality" from?

Goku allowed Vegeta, who was a genocidal maniac and killed most of his friends because he wanted to beat Vegeta on his own. Goku is completely fine with letting Frieza be even though he was just like Vegeta but worse.

Goku didn't give a shit about Zeno nuking Trunk's timeline. Goku doesn't care.

As stated previously, Goku doesn't care, this is an alien universe with no loved ones, and he has the dragon balls even if he did care.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Can you link me to the thread where that was discussed?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

1. Goku realizes the only means of killing the opponent is busting the multiverse.

2. He's willing to kill him.

3. Boom, he does it.

SBA says nothing about 'they won't if this involves damaging third parties'. Otherwise, boy do I have a lot of characters I know of that won't be using a lot of their powers in matches.

That is simply not how it works. He is willing to kill the oponent. That is the only change to his mentality.

And he doesn't want to kill him, he is willing to do it. He will not try to kill him with everything he has ever fought over something that goes less against his values. And it would end up in his own death.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Xeno goku's whole deal is protecting the multiverse dude...

And the idea that he would decide to effectively kill himself to just kill his opponent because he can't defeat them in a straight up fight just doesn't work.

 

[John_Werner]

How can an previous goku remember what he did do on a alternative timeline? The previous goku didn't perfom the actions of the future goku from another timeline. This is what Photoshop Flowey did. I am talking about Save and Load, and not reset. (This isn't even time rewind, it doesn't rewind time, just erase every progress and monsters memories except Chara's name and flowey's memories.)
And i refuted the "Asriel wouldn't spam his stuff againts goku because he is cocky on his battle"


>Asriel stated that he doesn't care about destroying the whole world in his fight and in his second form he was ending the world which means he doesn't care for it... except chara (why SBA does not apply to Asriel Dreemurr despite this?)

>Asriel only plays with the protagonist for specific reasons i explained

>Soul attacks + Save and Load will help. If soul attacks ends goku, then Asriel wins.

>If Soul manipulation is completely useless, Asriel can use his other stuff like Normal reset, True Reset, or the hypergonner itself (goku couldn't move without space time, does he?)

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ricsi Sorry, but that ammounts to your opinion on it, not what the rule actually says.

Also previous threads stated Goku wouldn't die from the nuke otherwise this argument would never have been brought up, either way.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Risci

Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a characters own powers and abilities.

Considering that his wincon is busting the multiverse, other characters's existences stopping him would be considered influence.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi Sorry, but that ammounts to your opinion on it, not what the rule actually says.

You really don't seem to get it.

Goku is in-character. The only change SBA makes is making him willing to kill the opponent. Nothing else changes in his mentality. That isn't an opinion, the whole part after the "willing to kill" was added exactly because people kept misinterpreting it.

What you are describing is Bloodlust.

 

[Overlord775]

@Overlord
Frisk and Flowey have type 1 acausality that lets them keep their memories so Goku should keep his too

No, Frisk has type 1 acasuality for surviving the timeline he was born in getting erased

It doesn't have to do with him retaining memories from time rewinds

 

[Warren_Valion]

Xeno goku's whole deal is protecting the multiverse dude...
And the idea that he would decide to effectively kill himself to just kill his opponent because he can't defeat them in a straight up fight just doesn't work.

GT Goku was going to blow himself up to destroy Omega Shenron, so you're wrong.

And why would Goku die? He has survived in voids before.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Risci
Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a characters own powers and abilities.

Considering that his wincon is busting the multiverse, other characters's existences stopping him would be considered influence.

That is his morals, not them. And it's not even the characters that matter here, it's the multiverse itself. the idea that SBA makes someone so desparate to win that they would litirally kill themselfs and destroy all of reality for it is ridicolous.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ricsi You're literally the only person saying that in the whole thread, Ricsi. I'm pretty sure the rule is clear-cut.

Bloodlust would be if I said Goku started the match by blowing up the multiverse.

But saying "he won't ever" when that's his wincon makes no sense according to everything SBA stands for.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

GT Goku was going to blow himself up to destroy Omega Shenron, so you're wrong.

And why would Goku die? He has survived in voids before.

This is not GT goku. Xeno goku is not comparable in-character to either goku, super or GT.

Because he didn't survive it in xenoverse 2.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also why do you keep saying "kill himself along with it"?

Goku doesn't die from his own nuke as far as every time this argument was brought up goes.

 

[John_Werner]

The thoughts of goku about nuking the multiverse will be useless because of Save and Load, this isn't basic time rewind. Even a normal reset is different from that.

No one elaborate on how his sealing works, and how xeno goku use his info analysis in character (despite it comes from Future warrior and his scouter, and it just basic techniques).

 

[Warren_Valion]

GT Goku was going to blow himself up to destroy Omega Shenron, so you're wrong.

And why would Goku die? He has survived in voids before.

This is not GT goku. Xeno goku is not comparable in-character to either goku, super or GT.
Because he didn't survive it in xenoverse 2.

Xeno Goku is:

Toei Goku + GT Goku + Heroes Shit

Xeno Goku has survived in numerous voids, I don't see why he wouldn't here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi You're literally the only person saying that in the whole thread, Ricsi. I'm pretty sure the rule is clear-cut.
Bloodlust would be if I said Goku started the match by blowing up the multiverse.

But saying "he won't ever" when that's his wincon makes no sense according to everything SBA stands for.

The amount of people that agree is not something you bring up in an argument, point.

SBA stands for making a battle realistic. Changing someones mentality completly is not part of it. You cannot assume it does something not stated there. It states that they become willing to kill the oponent, that is all the change their mentality goes through.

 

[DMB_1]

This is not GT goku. Xeno goku is not comparable in-character to either goku, super or GT.

Because he didn't survive it in xenoverse 2.

Xeno Goku IS GT Goku, but he managed to get God Ki after the advents of the show.

 

[Overlord775]

STOP THREATING GOKU LIKE A GENOCIDAL MASS MURDERED

Just because he's willing to kill it doesn't mean he will do something that is completely OoC

Just because the option is there it doesn't mean Goku will use it

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Xeno Goku is:

Toei Goku + GT Goku + Heroes Shit

Xeno Goku has survived in numerous voids, I don't see why he wouldn't here.

The "heroes" shit retcons most of that tough, hard.

Because he litirally didn't? Xenoverse 2, the part where everyone but the time patroller got killed by demigra busting the place?

 

[DMB_1]

If he understands the only way to kill an enemy is to bust the timeline, he's gonna do that, and then wishing for the Dragon Balls to bring back the potential victims.

 

[FateAlbane]

The amount of people that agree is not something you bring up in an argument, point.

SBA stands for making a battle realistic. Changing someones mentality completly is not part of it. You cannot assume it does something not stated there. It states that they become willing to kill the oponent, that is all the change their mentality goes through.

It actually is is when the arguments of said side that agrees are constructed around what the rule says and its textbook definition while the opposing side's argument relies on their opinion of it.

We are assuming a character does what is stated there. You said it yourself "you cannot assume it does something not stated there" which is exactly what you're doing by bringing up the "he wouldn't even if it meant he could never win or kill his opponent".

 

[Warren_Valion]

The thoughts of goku about nuking the multiverse will be useless because of Save and Load, this isn't basic time rewind. Even a normal reset is different from that.
No one elaborate on how his sealing works, and how xeno goku use his info analysis in character (despite it comes from Future warrior and his scouter, and it just basic techniques).

SAVE & LOAD is saving to create a timeline, and then loading that timeline. If Goku destroys every timeline AND kills Asriel with his immense AP advantage and range, then Asriel can't save and load

Goku's sealing isn't being brought up here, but it works by Goku sealing his opponent in the Dragon Balls.

Goku's Info analysis comes from everyone in Xenoverse that can read the opponent's moveset with and without a scouter. You are able to know what moves the opponent has and what they do, it is not limited to basic techniques, as special character-specific abilities like those from Majin Buu can be read as well.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It actually is is when the arguments of said side that agrees are constructed around what the rule says and its textbook definition while the opposing side's argument relies on their opinion of it.

We are assuming a character does what is stated there. You said it yourself "you cannot assume it does something not stated there" which is exactly what you're doing by bringing up the "he wouldn't even if it meant he could never win or kill his opponent".

Claiming that your idea is based around a act like that is plain wrong. It litirally says they become willing to kill the enemy. Litirally that. That does not mean he is willing to kill others, just the enemy, because it's the only thing stated.

No, you are assuming "he is willing to do and kill anything to win". SBA says "The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."

 

[John_Werner]

There are numerous questions I have for this debate since I'm getting conflicting answers for both sides:

• Who holds the AP advantage?
• Does Goku's Acausality allow him to be aware of Time Resets?
• Does SAVE & LOAD work if the entire multiverse AND Asriel are destroyed?
• How often is Asriel likely to use SAVE & LOAD and/or his soul hax IN THIS FORM? Other forms or characters are irrelevant, what is the mindset of this character in this form.

If the answer to the following questions is, "Asriel, No, Yes, and Asriel spams it", then why are you voting for Asriel when such a fight would clearly be a stomp?

I'd like people from both sides to bring evidence for their case, as "he said, she said" isn't an effective way to reach a proper conclusion to this fight.

Please response with haste, thank you.

1. Goku

2. No. I explained on my comments. Save and Load=/=Normal Reset. Even normal reset isn't time rewind from the same timeline, it erases every progress and memories except flowey and Chara's name.

3. It wasn't show so you can't make that argument. Asriel, however, stated that he doesn't care about destroying the whole world and he was ending the multiverse with his mere presence on his second form.

4. He didn't spam it because specific reasons i explained. I elabored why he will spam his time hax with goku if Asriel see his soul manipulation is useless.

 

[John_Werner]

If he understands the only way to kill an enemy is to bust the timeline, he's gonna do that, and then wishing for the Dragon Balls to bring back the potential victims.

Nuking the timeline isn't enought to kill Asriel. That was Asriel did and his file still existed

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ricsi Your thoughts on this ammount to playing at semantics and bringing up things that go against what the very definition of the rule says.

You keep quoting the part "willing to kill the opponent" and seemingly adding "but not if X things are involved" which comes from your opinion on it when there's literally nothing in the rule saying so. That is why your thoughts on this are playing on semantics to try and justify that opinion, and nothing else.

 

[John_Werner]

@Overlord
Frisk and Flowey have type 1 acausality that lets them keep their memories so Goku should keep his too

No, Frisk has type 1 acasuality for surviving the timeline he was born in getting erased
It doesn't have to do with him retaining memories from time rewinds

˄This

 

[Warren_Valion]

The "heroes" shit retcons most of that tough, hard.

Because he litirally didn't? Xenoverse 2, the part where everyone but the time patroller got killed by demigra busting the place?

What? No, it doesn't.

Goku still has Super Saiyan 4, he went through what GT Goku went through.

He just went through the extra non-sensical stuff that is Dragon Ball Heroes as well. It doesn't completely invalidate everything that happened in GT, where did you even get that nonsense.


And when did Heroes Goku ever show up in Xenoverse 2 anyway, I remember Xenoverse Goku, you know - the one with Super Saiyan Blue - showing up, but never Heroes Goku, the one with Super Saiyan 4.

Heroes Goku survived fighting in the Demon Realm, a place without time, a void.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi Your thoughts on this ammount to playing at semantics and bringing up things that go against what the very definition of the rule says.
You keep quoting the party "willing to kill the opponent" and seemingly adding "but not if X things are involved" which comes from your opinion on it when there's literally nothing in the rule saying so. That is why your thoughts on this are playing on semantics to try and justify that opinion, and nothing else.

What? No. I am saying that he would not kill other people in-character for that, not in such a permanent fascion. Only because his willing to kill one guy, he does not become willing to kill himself and everyone else to get an inconclusive against an enemy. He becomes willing to kill Asriel, but is in-character otherwise, as simple as that.

And even if he were to do that, he plain died when the multiverse was destroyed in xenoverse.

 

[Overlord775]

You keep quoting the part "willing to kill the opponent" and seemingly adding "but not if X things are involved" which comes from your opinion on it when there's literally nothing in the rule saying so. That is why your thoughts on this are playing on semantics to try and justify that opinion, and nothing else.

Willing to.kill =/= Willing to sacrifice everything to try to beat their oppoenents

This is the reason characters like Gilgamesh have a lot of losses, because even when willing to kill their personalities inders their fighting capability

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes it does, a shitload of stuff made no sense in there. But again, killing himself and destroying all of reality to win is not something he ever does.

All of reality was destroyed in xenoverse 2, and that is canon to Heroes as well. Everything exept the Time Patroller and the scroll got destroyed.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Nuking the timeline isn't enought to kill Asriel. That was Asriel did and his file still existed

You are forgetting that if Goku was to nuke the multiverse, he would kill Asriel as well.

If there is no multiverse, and no Asriel, then there is nothing to load.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Ricsi I feel like we will never agree on this, so agree to disagree.

@Overlord That's an entirely different case, since Gilgamesh is normally cocky but if he realizes his only option is something like say, Enuma Elish or gets desperate, he tried to pull it even against Shirou whom he considered pretty much garbage.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This is like saying that Batman would go bvack in time and shoot his parents if it madde him win.

 

[FateAlbane]

Not at all. Goku isn't even killing anybody he knows here.