Wiz vs Gilgamesh

[John985]

Just like gemmy said, its lacking in context so 6-b was not accepted. And the size of the country wast specified. Its the same as overlord even though they have country statement.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

They're still going to be Low 6-B via multiplier.

Wiz w/ staff>>>>base Wiz>>>>Soul and manatite amped human Wiz>>>>Base Human Wiz=Megumin as they have comparable reputation and both are considered veterans.

430.2 Gigatons X 1.12 (incredibly low-ball as this is equivalent to low-grade manatite boost, while Wiz had soul seal) X 2.24 (Due to not having a staff) = 1.07 Teratons. Baseline Low 6-B.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm pretty sure the binding space is because it prevents teleportation even from command seals

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Solacis]

unless there are further backings of him explicitly using SNI aside from Child Gil being only said to have used it, then we have no further proof that his SNI is a mentality born from his mind as a kid. It's referenced that as a kid, he's smarter with the use of the Gates of Babylon since it's not as powerful. He isn't as capable or as strong as the current Gilgamesh, so he acted smart and used it effectively. Only Child Gil has it, and thus it makes sense that Gilgamesh, who has become proud and reliant on his treasury, has lost this ability in the first place.

I've already explained above that it's physically impossible for Gilgamesh not to have SNI in his adult form. He is incapable of manipulating his own Saint Graph and so can't gain any additional Noble Phantasms that he doesn't already have. Child Gil has a different mentality, in that he willingly loosens the restrictions he puts on himself in using SNI, but that doesn't mean he only has it in his Child form.

Not to mention that you're misunderstanding the source of Sha Naqba Imuru as a Noble Phantasm. Sha Naqba Imuru is a Noble Phantasm born specifically out of Gil's feat of having visited the underworld and thus seeing the Abyss where all of creation once came from. That's the basis of the NP. If anything, SNI belongs specifically to "He Who Saw The Deep", that is, Adult Gilgamesh, and his Child form only has it due to having the same Saint Graph as his adult self that took the potion of youth.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Like Solacis said, the point you are trying to make literally makes no sense Core. Gil isn't being resummoned into another facet of himself like Caster Gil and getting a new set of skills for it, he's literally just growing younger. And since Young Gil is not a prick and an arrogant idiot, he doesn't care about restricting SNI.

Do you forget when he just casually realizes with a glance that Arthuria, in full battle armor, is already not a virgin because why not? He can also assess the battle strength of others easily and would never even attempt to get close to Assassin, and backed off from the boosted Saber with Rin as a master. Are you telling me he'd know all this without seeing a reason why because he's... smart? Typical anime "I can smell your power level" business?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Just to summarize (You guys took your time, now I really don't have time to respond to you guys so let's move this to some later date after this response, hopefully), but the main topic has shifted from that.

But even with SNI, even with that level of awareness, and even if FSN Gil acts differently to FCCC Gil, his inability to do anything right has been absurd. Not only when he was UNRESTRICTED from the Grail and allowed to do whatever he wants in the latest Grail War, he made mistakes that would actually be less "Oh I didn't see that coming" to mistakes that even anyone with a comprehensive tactic would understand. There are limitations on SNI even without his process and the last thing it was compared to are chessgames and cards.

Even if you can argue at this point that CCC Gil has it, it's unlikely to give him let's say Yhwach level Almighty at this point. It's certainly gonna be helpful to him but anyone saying it's an absolutely ultimate precog that would ensure Gilgamesh never loses, is absurd.


You know.

I'd have to admit. Yes. I did forget that. Because uhh, the scene that followed that was frankly a bit disturbing. Excuse me for trying to forget such a scene that will not be mentioned here. Also, I'd assume he figured that one out because of ... idk... Mana replenishment with Shirou in order to beat Berserker?

Frankly, I don't remember this scene at all. Unless you mean this is FZero?

Actually, show me the scene on the first place. That might be a different scene from that attempted copulation. Or idk, Gilgamesh figuring out by common logic that King Arthur had a heir before... But really, use SNI to find out if someone's a virgin and not who's threatening... that's logical lol

Edit - Actually not rn

 

[Solacis]

Regardless, we've established that Gilgamesh does in fact, have SNI in his adult form. But just to prevent misunderstandings, I have to point out one more thing.

SNI is passively restricted. That is, it's restricted by default and has to be manually unrestricted by Gilgamesh himself to use its full scale of clairvoyance. It's on all the time, but Gilgamesh doesn't use it (i.e. ignores it) until such time as he needs something from it. The mental restrictions are a passive state, so the reason Gilgamesh could still get caught off-guard during any of his appearances is because he didn't think/want to unrestrict it until it was too late.

Remember that Gilgamesh seeks pleasure above practically everything, and knowing the outcome of everything that happens around him takes all the excitement away, as noted by Merlin, who possesses a similar level of clairvoyance. That's why he uses SNI to find out fun, but ultimately useless, facts about everything around him, but his pride as a warrior doesn't want to know how dangerous certain opponents are outside of what he deduces from his experiences. He also doesn't feel he needs to know the outcome of his efforts, because in his mind, he's awesome enough that the outcome is assured to be in his favour anyway; and using SNI would essentially spoil the journey.

These passive mental restrictions don't apply to this match due to the fact that Gilgamesh is bloodlusted and automatically unrestricts SNI as soon as the match starts.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I already admitted the truth of that. The passive and restriction existing.

We can all safely conclude that he's prone to making a lot of mistakes on FSN and FZero due to the influence of his own characteristics. Though I am wondering where you get all this info from.

My argument more about that bloodlust and usage of it is based on the Thanos one where Gilg isn't bloodlusted anyway. I'm just questioning if he ever suffered a loss or a disadvantageous situation in CCC cause that's hard to find. The lack of easy information doesn't make things fun either.

Either way done with this, you really pick the best time to respond again. We could've talked a week before or prior but this week is a busy one.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It heavily depends. The problem with the situations you are thinking of is the context. Gilgamesh fighting Shirou is the last time you'll see him try to be serious, Gilgamesh was caught by the Shadow and it's the perfect spirit killing machine and Sakura still barely, barely did it. Gilgamesh in FZero doesn't really make big mistakes besides getting Vimana shot down by Critalot the angry dog but his disdain for him is so massive it would have been weird that he did.

And no, he just appeared in Shirou's courtyard and decided to be an ass. Thinking about it, he also saw right through Caster's "dead" body before shooting her escaping figure.

But yes, this issue should be done with by now. What's even the count again?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You can answer the vote count as a bump instead of just saying bump, just saying.

But on a simpel note @Lsir

It is the perfect killing machine. But he could've just remained airborne and Vimanas and he would've been safe couldn't he? Not to mention Enuma.

What are you talking about on the second paragraph though?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Crim

Meant more that barely anything is as effective butchering Servants, but despite getting the jump on him Sakura only barely manages to absorb him.

In his first appearence, Gilgamesh appears when Caster is coming for trouble, ready to make it double and kills her. Which is actually an illusion she made up and that he sees thrugh from turn one, firing on the hidden Caster as she tries a retreat.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

In his final appearance, he lacerates Dark Sakura with swords from the Gate of Babylon. However, he underestimates her regenerative abilities and is devoured by her shadows. Dark Sakura is forced to quickly convert him to mana in haste because Gilgamesh's ego allows him to be immune to the mental pollution and she was afraid he might tear her up from the inside if she did not digest him.

That didn't sound like a barely. That sounded more like a "Focus on consuming him" just in case. And that's also a 'might'. Not to mention Gilgamesh was allowed a lot of time to predict what's going to happen and I'm not entirely sure if it's an ambush or not from Sakura. I'm gonna have to search up the scans of the VN likely but I'm not convinced. Even at life and death situations I'm more than sure Gilgamesh would've deactivated his limitation of SNI, especially when he was chained up after his fight with Shirou in UBW. Before he got sniped by Archer.

Just read it up, that's on the FSN? Didn't see it there initially. Why he gotta take out best femFSN Servant that way . Is that this scene here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjFDA34JEaE

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I'll admit I was remembering it wrong, finals really scrambled my brains to high heaven. However, what did happen was that Sakura was dead after Gilgamesh gave a final blow, and as he's going away she manages to regenerate and catch him off guard. Thing is, the line about rejecting world lines used as an explanation sounds more like if Gilgamesh WAS using SNI, not to mention he's correct in his assessment and only fails in accounting for it being able to regenerate that well. If he hadn't been so close, judging that wrong only means he starts anew and blasts her with anti regen, but seeing her far so easily just reinforces his egotism and past perception.

She's happy with Kuzuki, hands off the knife ears! Kinda...? It only happens like that int he anime that changed so many other things. Originally she comes to **** stuff up at Shirou's house, I think Kuzuki wasn't even there either.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I've also took notice in my playthrough of FGO with Caster Gil that there are numerous scenes and situations he didn't expect. You might be right on rejecting world lines, but there seems to be more evidence of SNI being restricted for most if we go by that logic, or SNI just as a whole not being the best precog tool.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing your argument, but this is starting to show how SNI really is flawed as a whole.

Man I gotta find this all lol. I would play the VN but I can't find it nor have the time for it. Sadly alas @ alteration.... nah Medea's still alive and having a happy life with Suzuki.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's fair enough.

Responsabilities? Who needs those? Follow the waifu life!!

Anyway, enough derailment.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Oh yay that was fast lol.

You're right. Gacha gacha rolls every day!!

I personally don't think this match is a win for Wiz, but I think I voted for Gilg.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So current vote?

 

[Warlocked00576]

I think these are the current votes:

Gil: solacis, anonymousblank, GLHF22, Paul Frank, LSirLancelotDuLacl, CoreOfimBalance(COB), Dragopentling, shiroyashaginsan (8)

Wiz: 0

Inconclusive: 0

Not sure about John985 but he seemed to be favoring Gil. Don't think it's an outright stomp but isn't Bloodlusted Gil a bit too much for Wiz?

 

[LightinAnt]

I vote Gil too fra

 

[Dragopentling]

okay just curious and I want to make sure.....in Full Power form, what's Gilgamesh's max AP potency calcs?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

10 ninatons. He scales from this chick who is calc'd at this.

 

[John985]

Also voting for Gil.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So, grace is ended?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Doesn't look like anyone's arguing for either side now, and the vote is 10-0, so I'm fine with this being added if the OP feels it is conclusive.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, this can be added now.

 

[PlsHelpmeIneedIt]

Even though this is probably a finished debate, Whats the closest thing we have seen to a bloodthirsty gil?