Why Was BB Upgraded to 2-A

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Zephyros' comparisons are ridiculous, with all due respect.

Naruto outright performed feats calculated at Tier 5

Luffy and comparable characters perform Tier 7 feats all the time

The Final Fantasy protagonists and villains use Limit Breaks and Summons that perform crazy feats all the time, often in the Tier 5 or above.

What all of these examples do is that they establish a level of internal consistent among the verse and its characters. It's not unreasonable to scale Cloud to Sephiroth and his Supernova feat given everything else he faces, meets and does. It's not unreasonable to have Mountain level Luffy given everything else that happens in One Piece.

But to have a character whose best feats are High 6-A or 5-B, and then put him at 2-A via scaling from a feat from a distant character from a completely different installment of the series, while relying on a huge scaling chain to even get to him, is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Attack Potency =/= Destructive Power, especially when abilities aren't made to cause destruction.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Zephyros' comparisons are ridiculous, with all due respect.
Naruto outright performed feats calculated at Tier 5

Luffy and comparable characters perform Tier 7 feats all the time

The Final Fantasy protagonists and villains use Limit Breaks and Summons that perform crazy feats all the time, often in the Tier 5 or above.

What all of these examples do is that they establish a level of internal consistent among the verse and its characters. It's not unreasonable to scale Cloud to Sephiroth and his Supernova feat given everything else he faces, meets and does. It's not unreasonable to have Mountain level Luffy given everything else that happens in One Piece.

But to have a character whose best feats are High 6-A or 5-B, and then put him at 2-A via scaling from a feat from a distant character from a completely different installment of the series, while relying on a huge scaling chain to even get to him, is absolutely ludicrous.

Don't pretend to have any "due respect" for me. Clearly you don't give a shit about anything but forcing through this ridiculous downgrade.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But the freaking feats being discussed are Destructive Power, Zephyros. The whole argument you're bringing is inconsistent. Either we use Destructive Power to analyze feats in which case there are clear discrepancies or we can't do anything at all.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Luffy quite literally has tier 7 feats causally. Gear Fourth alone has feats on that level. Naruto himself has a low 5-B feat that was done with ease. Bringing other series into this doesn't cut it especially whenever they have more reasons to be at the tier they're at than Nasu characters have at 2-A.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

How exactly is it not consistent?

Goetia scales to Kiara who scales to CCC Kiara that's pretty clear scaling

HOLLLLLLLLLD UP. Since when does Beast Kiara scale to CCC Kiara.

Nega Saver A: The fate of the beast who tried to bring salvation only to her own world, while possessing the qualifications to be a messiah (Saver). Every skill possessed by the Saver and Ruler class is nullified, targets with magic stat not exceeding A rank are charmed with a 300% probability and the effect of buffs cast by Kiara are increased by 200%. Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III, they say that she had no choice but to withdraw when faced with a messiah since she did not possess this skill.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

But the freaking feats being discussed are Destructive Power, Zephyros. The whole argument you're bringing is inconsistent. Either we use Destructive Power to analyze feats in which case there are clear discrepancies or we can't do anything at all.

Goetia: I'm going to use this technique made to kill humanity, so i can kill humanity

******* lord, it's not that hard to understand.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@monarch

There is a statement that says Beast Kiara was around the same strength as her CCC version, it's in the other thread somewhere

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I'm unfollowing this. I don't care to listen to your circular BS anymore. You're giving me a headache.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't remember Nasuverse, specifically the stuff related to the Moon Cell, having bits and pieces of lore randomly spread out across the internet and named in ways that basically no one not already in the know would find it, much less having entire, literal libraries to read through for lore in games that already have lore to be scanned for.

Just the Nasuverse Visual Novels have more text than the collected works of William Shakespeare by several times. You definitely have to get through a veritable library of stuff to understand the verse. It's infamously obtuse and hard to get into.


Trying to understand the fate series

 

[Paul_Frank]

Again

Ars Almadel Salomonis is not just meant to surface wipe or blow up the earth

It is to burn up all of human history at every point in time so that the energy from the burning and spiritrons can be used to preform a time rewind of massive scale, which is a feat close to actual true magic, in particular Zeltrech and Aoko's

 

[Hizack123]

I agree with downgrade

high 3-A to low 2-C is already good enough

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Matt

get back to me when you find the Nasuverse version of the Thotbox. In all seriousness, that is for the entire series, not just what we are concerned with, which is the Moon Cell.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Is matto okie? This debate seems kinda heated >.>

 

[Dvorak1902]

Is matto okie? This debate seems kinda heated >.>

He has been supplanted by two midgets on a trenchcoat.

 

[Sera_EX]

Just throwing this in. Ending the universe countless times is not anything above Low 2-C unless it was done all at once. That's been our universe destruction metric for awhile now.

 

[Paul_Frank]

That's what Arjuna did and has nothing to do with the mooncell.

 

[Managements]

This is a fun thread

I love it

 

[Sera_EX]

Was just checking, I don't have a horse in this race. I was just making sure no one made that mistake by accident ;_;

 

[Paul_Frank]

Someone did make that mistake with the Arjuna page when it was first made but it was switched back to low 2-C once that was pointed out

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@SnowFlame556

• Pretty much nothing you just said is supported by the quotes you posted. First of all, your quotes outright proves that the system that does "Law of Conversvation of Events" is not the moon cell.

BB by use of the Mooncell that she absorbed. She created a type 2 Acausal world where their is no Past, or future. Just an "Eternal present." Closing off a univere's future so it cannot produce anymore. Using Archimedes Analagy. Destruction of its past would end up leading to a falling apart of its foundation of humanity. Eventually leading to that worlds destruction. [1]

• Archimedes says the system does the "Law of Conversvation of Events" every 100 years and then says that the law applies to the moon cell as well. Now these are the key words, "as well" If the moon cell was the system doing "Law of Conversvation of Events" why would he say something that differentiates the two. He also says another quote after this that the Foundation of Humanity governs both the earth, and the moon and is what is tracking worlds and determining what futures comes to an end, meaning the Foundation of Humanity is what causes "Law of Conversvation of Events". You have literally proven yourself wrong.

We have this quote by Rin:

"Rin :: …you understand? It won't make the world just as you want instantaneously, but it can with certainty manage the Earth according to your wish. A wishing vessel filled with all realities…no, it's more of a schedule management device. That's what the Moon Cell Core is. …this wishing device has obtained a will, and determined the "future." That future is the annihilation of mankind. The outside world is proceeding with that future of annihilation as its set history. At this point, even if we get back to the near side, never mind the Holy Grail War, whether the Moon Cell itself is there or not…" [2]

>A wishing vessel filled with all realities

>A scheduled management device

now, look again at what Archimedes says. The System works thusly at regular intervals. [3] Closing off their future. Spefically every, 100 years. [4]

The Mooncell a self-updating device that cuts off futures every 100 years. A scheduled management device. The Core has obtained a will that can determine the future! The core can cause the Law of Conversation of Events.

• Again your the quote you link has Rani speculate the there and supposedly, key word being supposedly, infinite futures stored in the moon cell. This is character speculation not fact. Also I cant find a link or source to the first quote.

This isn't character Speculation. Rin, and Rani are 2 side characters that Give the Main Character (Hakunon) all the information of the Mooncell. Especially Rin, she seems to know a lot about the Mooncells function. Do i need to drop some intelligence feats? Also, i already posted the scans. I also shown that the Imaginary Number Space is an infinite size 4D zone. That's 2-A. but if you wish to find those scans, please look here [5]

• You also didn't show any quotes showing BB moving between universes and absorbing them. All mentions of of things being absorbed in the quotes you posted only talk of areas being absorbed, like they specifically mention the old school building being absorbed into Imaginary number space, but there are no mention of universes being absorbed.

You must not understand the terminology of the Mooncell. The Mooncell is stores records. The imaginary number space is where all records of other universes are stored.

"All records, and Impressions will be deleted." She is deleting every record (Universe/Plural form)

• Yeah that's not gonna fly. You are trying to use to two different quotes from two different games with completely different context to try and claim there are infinite universes. Just because one game in different context uses the word possibility to mean universe doesn't mean the other is too. You also didn't source the Goetia quote anyway

...... Fate/extella takes place after the final battle in Fate/Extra, and Fate/Extella link is connected to both Extella, and CCC... Fate/Extra CCC is a sequal to its companion game Fate/Extra [6]


Also, Archimedes states himself that the Mooncell has a large number of "If-futures" Or "Future Histories" [7]

Which again, is important terminology. Because all those variant futures make up a vast array of parrallel worlds. [8]

Here are the links to all my points for keeping 2-A For BB (aka in support of 2-A for BB)


This is for anyone just now joining the conversatio.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3390788#18

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3390788#24

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3390788#59

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3390788#110

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not familiar with the verse, but I do recall someone making a concern for the 2-A upgrades on another wiki. Anyway, I do generally trust Matt's sense of judgement regarding this. I know Reppuzan was also knowledgeable, but he has retired and been inactive as of late.

 

[Hizack123]

@Monarch Laciel.....what is your thoughts on this entire subject?

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I agree with everything Matthew has said.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I made my thoughts quite clear when I said that I had read through all the evidence, all the arguments for, and all the aguments against on the thread, and come to the conclusion that 2-A was legit.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Yeah, I disagree with Matt on this one. 2-A reasoning was solid, if futures are universes, look at another thing connected to if futures, that being Lostbelts. They are like, said to be universes. Let alone in Mooncell in Extra.

 

[StrongClick]

people keep using Goetia as an example but seem to forget what AAS does. It destroys earth across all of time
all of it. Every instant if taken literally

meaning that it can be anywhere from High 6-A to High 3-A. So "shown power and what's been claimed" doesn't work as an argument, not even counting the fact that having higher-d AP doesn't mean that you can naturally destroy something at multiple points in time.

Just pointing out. High 6-A thoughout time would just make it a temporal range feat not an AP multiplier to High 3-A.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Am I the only one who sees no problem if they're simulated universes? The definition of simulate is to take the image and appearance of, and iirc the Moon Cell doesn't seem to heavily distinguish each universe from a real one.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

How are the Mooncell's Universes Simulated when there is actually at least 1 (Likely more) Spaces that are infinite in size that are 4th dimensional? Data on this wiki is accepted at 3D (From the recent thread i have read), go up a higher dimension from that is 4D. Imaginary Number Space is a realm of infinite 4th dimensional space. is it possible for a computer to simulate that?

I think we shouldn't look at the Mooncell as a "Normal" computer. That seems to be a popular misconception. This "computer" can access higher dimensions, and ultize them.

Edit: As for affecting things outside of it. The whole point of CCC was that the Mooncell wanted to kill Humanity, but BB prevented that. In the F/GO event the crew of Seraphix was digilitized, which threw the future of the Mainline off causing it to get cut off which would result in the end of that universe.

 

[Crimson7867]

Naruto never blew up a planet but he scales to planet level people.

Luffy never busted a mountain but he scales to mountain level people.

Pretty much none of the Final Fantasy protags have performed any feats comparable to the people they scale from.

Saying "direct feats only" is ludicrous.

You are ridiculous lol, get your facts and calc right before you act all high and mighty.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

This is interesting.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

He is right though, in a way. You don't need to have 2-A feat on your own to get 2-A, you can get 2-A by pure scaling. Same with any tiers, 7-A, 5-B, 6-A, 8-C, so on. Scaling to direct feats only is ridiculous, yes. We do that in, hell, almost all verses, really. SMT, Blazblue, Granblue Fantasy, God of War, Sailor Moon, etc. You won't throw consistency, you just scale it to people with statements and feats of defeating or overpowering another without going on extra bullshit of checking every feat in characters.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

"specially for a topic as controversial in a thread hailed by someone who's infamously biased towards their waifu."

Firstly, calling me biased and a wanker (previous thread) does nothing to invalidate the upgrade and just shows everyone that it is you who is biased in this case.If you actually read the revision thread or the one before that you would've known that I only made a summary of all the feats that were brought up, as I have stated in the very first paragraph. I even wrote the names of people who contributed the most. Out of all the scans in that OP I, personally, contributed only one screenshot and one small quote. All the questions that you have have been addressed in those two threads, which you didn't read.

Secondly, people who were involved with Fate revision threads in the past 2 months have seen that I approach revisions with a neutral and sceptical view. Sometimes I even come of as rude or annoying, but at no point in a revision thread have I gone "yeah, everything here is fine, let's apply all of this" because I don't remember a single revision thread where everything was fine. Even when BB was involved I acted objectively. I voiced my concern on the scaling problem and I said that in the worst case scenario people know that CCC characters are definitely the ones who are affected by the revision and can adjust everything accordingly.

Third thing to address is the hypocrisy. At one point in time you were called out for acting like your opinion was the most important in a Fate revision even though you weren't knowledgeable on the topic. You said that a person can still evaluate feats without the need to be knowleadgable. Now you want to invalidate opinion of staff members who evaluated the feats, but aren't knowledgeable. As was stated in the revision thread, it was created precisely so that staff members who aren't knowledgeable can properly evaluate it.

This is just to address his comment against me as I feel I should defend myself in this case.

 

[Hizack123]

Okay calm down! Don't go there!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agreed, please keep the thread civil. But that being said, I'm more neutral on whether or not the initial feat is 2-A, but both Matt and Monarch make good points about the scaling chain/multiple steps of backwards scaling.

 

[Shade0180]

So thread just died with nothing getting answered and the people that was suppose to answer basically went on a hissy fit before leaving?


Good job I guess.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So thread just died with nothing getting answered and the people that was suppose to answer basically went on a hissy fit before leaving?


Good job I guess.

Shade like that is not necessary.

Perhaps closing this thread and remaking it with less hostility is best.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I agree with Ovens. A more focused CRT discussing this is probably what's best to avoid swamping through negativity.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

We already had one

Matt felt the need to make this regardless

 

[Paul_Frank]

Every question asked in this thread was already answered either here or in the previous upgrade threads