Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Marshadow shouldn't be posting 8 comments in a row like this without staff permission.

completely forgot this was staff only

His comments deserved clarification, but yes he should stop now.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What, exactly, does Marshadow want here?

 

[KingNanaya]

What, exactly, does Marshadow want here?

he wants to pass the thread as it is now

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

he wants to pass the thread as it is now

I definitely don't agree with that, for the record.

 

[KingNanaya]

I definitely don't agree with that, for the record.

I don't either. glad we're on the same page

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

apparently, we have enough votes to compromise for a likely rating. Does the OP or any evaluating staff object to this?

 

[KingNanaya]

If the opposition is fine with a compromise, I am too

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I definitely don't agree with that, for the record.

could you ping @Qawsedf234 (he's neutral, but he still needs to be called), @Deagonx and @Firestorm808 to see if they agree on a compromise rating?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

could you ping @Qawsedf234 (he's neutral, but he still needs to be called), @Deagonx and @Firestorm808 to see if they agree on a compromise rating?

@Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Firestorm808

 

[Deagonx]

I do not support a "likely" rating, no.

 

[KingNanaya]

I do not support a "likely" rating, no.

would you do it for a Scooby snack?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Jesus ****, this has been going on for nearly 5 months.

 

[KingNanaya]

Jesus ****, this has been going on for nearly 5 months.

Yes, which is why I was hopeful for a compromise. But I guess we're waiting until Ultima is able to comment, which would likely be after the massive tiering revision. Honestly, if that's the case, I don't mind having this closed until then.

 

[GarrixianXD]

OP asked for the thread to be locked until the tiering revisions are done.

@Deagonx @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, which is why I was hopeful for a compromise. But I guess we're waiting until Ultima is able to comment, which would likely be after the massive tiering revision. Honestly, if that's the case, I don't mind having this closed until then.

Done

Remind me on my wall when you want this reopened

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Ultima to comment here.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, I'm here. Apologies for the small delay.

Anyhow:

After looking through some of the evidence, as well as being sent this album with some additional context. I've come to agree with the opposition of this thread, yes. It seems the term "transcendental" is actually consistently used to refer to non-Tier 1 things outside of the one monologue that provides the alleged High 1-B statement. Naturally, that means the word isn't strictly used to indicate infinite jumps in power, so, "No matter how transcendental you become" becomes a far weaker statement overall, in light of that.

Put me on disagree.

 

[KingNanaya]

give me a bit to respond

 

[KingNanaya]

So, first:

it doesn't say "transcendental" here, it says otherworldly. which is very important, since it's the basis of the disagreement.

Vampires are basically immortal, only being able to be killed by the Church's conceptual holy weapons, incredibly potent magecraft, or servants. all of which are currently accepted as 4D. despite this, however, the rely on human blood in order to continue their existence. if they don't drink blood, they literally cease to exist. there are also those who become dead apostles and become crazy due to their hunger for blood.

I'm fairly certain she's able to use marble phantasm, which is essentially reality warping, at a lower extent than Arcueid.

Arcueid, who is currently the only True Ancestor we see in the story, is tier 1. there are also tier 1 Dead Apostles, like Roa and Zelretch

this is actually just very wrong. Yumizuka gained the ability to use a reality marble after becoming a vampire. Noel was able to use marble phantasm after becoming a vampire.

this is just wrong. the first scan used the word Otherworldly and is now claiming it said Transcendental.

I actually explained this before on discord, so let me just get the screenshot of what I said

So, I'm here. Apologies for the small delay.

it's all good man. things happen

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I received permission from Ultima to comment through discord, provided my arguments were different enough from Nanaya's.

So, I'm here. Apologies for the small delay.

Anyhow:

After looking through some of the evidence, as well as being sent this album with some additional context. I've come to agree with the opposition of this thread, yes. It seems the term "transcendental" is actually consistently used to refer to non-Tier 1 things outside of the one monologue that provides the alleged High 1-B statement. Naturally, that means the word isn't strictly used to indicate infinite jumps in power, so, "No matter how transcendental you become" becomes a far weaker statement overall, in light of that.

Put me on disagree.

Supernatural phenomena in the nasuverse are already higher dimensional.
Items with Mystery can only be harmed by things that have a sizeable amount of mystery, and:

"Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).


In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."


Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century."


Source: Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: True Demon [Circumstances], p.190



Demons also require Abstract Existence (Type 2) for being formed from and made of desires of Humanity.


The 6th Imaginary Aspect. Existences born of the wishes of humans, passively (受動的な, shuudou-teki-na?, lit. "as acted upon") called forth by human desire. Manifest phantasms (実像幻想, jitsuzou gensou?) that take form via the aggregation of ideation (想念, sounen?, lit. "thoughts"). For materialization (実体化, kittaika?, lit. "manifestation to material") to occur, "a form fabricated by humans" is necessary. Not True Demons, but existences that obtain being by the imposition of a Designation (個体名, kotai-mei?, lit. "unit designation").


Source: Jonnobi: Demon



Magecraft is capable of harming these Higher-Dimensional and Abstract beings, but there is more to keep in mind. Magecraft on its own is Higher-Dimensional in nature, at least 4D. This would scale to magecraft as a whole, essentially giving Smurf hax to everything in the verse, Something that's surprisingly become common as of late with things like Persona, Devil May Cry, and Final Fantasy.


"Once, there had been a miracle on the earth able to materialize the soul.

That, however, was lost in the Great Collapse of the 70s. Since then, accepting their downfall, the magi incorporated the modern science they had once tabooed and gave the “soul” a new definition.

It was “the location of where the conscious was being outputted”, the magical theory of virtual spiritrons.

In the past, the conscious could only be manifested through the body.

But the magi pinpointed the location of the “soul” and succeeded in outputting it to the new frontier, projecting it as an avatar in the cyber world.

With this, the magi transferred themselves to the electronic world and became capable of more advanced information acquisition.

After all, the soul was a higher dimensional energy body and it was quite superior as an information medium. With the announcement of this theory, networking technology if nothing else made significant strides in the new world. The military industrial complex in exchange for their real world weapons development being suspended devoted their resources in development of weapons that were in the cyber world."

Magecraft directly uses a higher dimensional medium.
High Rank dead apostles, which are independent of their masters, are usually much more proficient in magecraft, and have a higher level of mystery than their human counterparts. Higher mystery can consist on higher infinity jumps. For example, Aoko, by just using her hair to amplify her magecraft, went from baseline 4-d potency to being able to harm Alice's Flat Snark, a 5-dimensional construct. Also, Dead Apostles like Roa and Noel have idea blood,which are powerful enough to affect the soul of the Da who possesses it, something only the Third Magic was stated to be able to do.

Hemonomic Principle
Idea Blood. The quality of the blood that makes the Ancestors what they are, and a foundational commandment etched on their soul.

The Dead Apostles who inherited this blood would always rise up to become Ancestors no matter their rank; Arcueid compared it to a "crown".

On the other hand, a millennium-class foundation is needed for the Hemonomic Principle to function, and even if a Dead Apostle with hundreds of years of activity were to inherit it they would be crushed by that curse. Properly speaking it was not something that Vlov could withstand, but thanks to a technique given to him by a certain Dead Apostle as well as his desire for revenge against that person he managed to retain his sanity until the end.

Also, ciel while using the idea blood of "blade" and "kingdom", was able to fight against a berserk arcueid who was using the full mana of the planet itself, and restrain her long enough to crush her under her own marble phantasm. In the ancestors, you have members who can hold their own against ultimate ones, like zelretch, prime roa, and altrouge. Hell, ORT, who is a type, is also among their ranks. So while Roa may have been referring to da abilities ( i believe he wasn't, because he mentioned kiara, who is a demon, not a dead apostle.) The abilities of top dead apostles can be considered higher dimensional.

True Ancestors, at maximum power, are OP reality warpers who directly draw power from the earth. Their higher dimensional ability is self explanatory.
Also why would he mention omnipotence if he DOESNT mean power?

Also, to support Roa's statement, we have a character named Kingprotea, who can do this:

Class Skills■ Huge Scale - EXA cheat skill that evolved from Self-Modification.There is no limit to how large she can get. Once the upper limit is reached, the upper limit is further increased. This is infinitely repeated. Basically infinite growth of infinite growth.Anywho, she's a planet destroying universe level disaster, but giant transformation makes her lose complex intelligence and function. This skill cannot bear common sense, so one completely self-destructs.

Despite all of this, she's still bound to the mooncell.

Kingproteas jump do indicate higher infinite jumps, because including the fact that once she reaches infinite, she removes that infinite and can go ever higher infinitely,Sefar who has a similar skill, is able to go from average a-rank servant, to being able to beat a bunch of divine spirits.

1. Crest of the Wandering StarA skill unique to Titan Altera and the key skill in her character design.It allows her to take on a giant form in order to destroy civilization.This is a passive skill that allows Altera to absorb the lives, creations, and concepts she destroys as spiritron-information, making her grow even larger. It is not a skill that she can remove of her own volition.Her HP increases by an order of magnitude2 when she absorbs the same amount of mana as her current HP.When her body reaches a size that is twice as large as her previous proportions (at 16, 32, 64,128, 256, 512, and 1024 meters), all her parameters increase by one level as she transitions to the next part of her titan adjustment.(For example, her Strength is A-rank, so if you think of it as 150 points, adding one level at A+ rank would double that number, putting it at 300 points.)And if the Titan adjustment is added to that, 300 points at the first stage would become 3,000 at the second stage, 30,000 at the third stage, and so on. At the seventh stage, it would be 300,000,000.This is an energy mass on the scale of a star, comparable to the power level of the legendary Golden White Face’s nine-tailed form (387,420,489).This is just some extra trivia, but the “Crest of the Star” skill possessed by the Altera in Fate/Grand Order is missing one character.
   
   
   
   obviously sefar at level 387 million is dimensionally superior to an a rank servant at 150

 

[Deagonx]

Just going to add, as discussed earlier in the thread, vampires can be killed with a rocket launcher.

 

[KingNanaya]

Just going to add, as discussed earlier in the thread, vampires can be killed with a rocket launcher.

weren't vampires, but aight

 

[Deagonx]

Ghouls are vampires. Dead Apostles are just a higher level of vampire than Ghouls.

Vampires [Term]
Monsters that suck human blood. Refers mostly to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them.

 

[KingNanaya]

• Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire. A living corpse, that hasn't fully regained it's mental faculties and lacks it's senses of pain and taste, but can simulate a human lifestyle on its own. A high-ranking soldier whose brain has been reconstructed after death, that follows its sire after understanding what kind of creature it has become. They are still bound to their sire and return to being corpses when their sire gets destroyed or by the sire's decision that they are not needed anymore. These Undead act as commanders to the lower ranked Dead and are not fazed by sunlight, but require periodic embalming treatment in order to conceal their true nature. Counted among "The Dead".[23]

The Dead (死者, Shisha?) are the traditional Familiars of the Dead Apostles.​

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

lower ranked dead apostles are merely considered familiars until rank 4.

Stage IV: Nightkin (夜属, Yazoku?) — An undead who acts as a fledgling Vampire while maintaining its original personality. A half-human Vampire whose inhuman physical abilities come at the cost of experiencing extreme coldness and thirst. A low-ranking knight, that according to the Church can hold its own against one of their Executors. When those of Rank Ⅵ and above carefully drink the blood of their prey, their victim starts out as a Vampire of this rank. They may become anemic under the sunlight, though it doesn't burn them yet.
In the magical world, one is considered "a person" up to this rank. A Vampire who has reached Rank Ⅳ can now survive away from its sire. From the sire's point of view it has changed from an "object" to a "living thing", in a sense. Only one in a thousand people are able to reach this rank.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

lower ranked dead apostles are merely considered familiars until rank 4.

Reminder admins can give permission for up to 3 comments. You have one more comment.

 

[Deagonx]

Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire.

The word "vampire" being translated here is literally "blood sucker." This is the first stage in which they literally suck blood instead of just eating human flesh, but ghouls are indeed vampires.

The Dead represent the slave caste in vampiric society a classification for the Stages I-III of the Vampire curse

 

[KingNanaya]

The word "vampire" being translated here is literally "blood sucker." This is the first stage in which they literally suck blood instead of just eating human flesh, but ghouls are indeed vampires.

The Dead (死者, Shisha?) are the traditional Familiars of the Dead Apostles.​

doesn't change the fact that they are familiars, as I've cited multiple times.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm aware. The term vampire refers to dead apostles and the people they turn. Familiars doesn't mean "not vampire" and you just quoted Stage 3 as being a vampire despite them being familiars, so you can't argue that being a familiar is mutually exclusive with being a vampire.

 

[KingNanaya]

Vampire [Term]
A general term for those that suck human blood. Refers specifically to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them.The vampires in Tsukihime extract human blood to maintain their own flesh. If, during this process, the vampire injects their own blood into their human prey, that human will be unable to peacefully pass away. For a normal person, death will still find them before long regardless. However, on rare occasions, if the victim has high physical potential and the capacity of their soul is excellent, they will remain in the world of the living.Afterward, their corpse is interred, and left alone for several years. During this time their brain melts, their soul is liberated from the cage of the body, and finally they arise as a kind of living dead called a "ghoul".As a ghoul, they feed on the corpses sleeping in the graves around them to supplement their own missing flesh, restoring their physical body little by little. After many years of this, they will eventually regain their brain and intelligence. At this stage, they can finally be called a "vampire".However, although this new vampire can move by their own will, they cannot escape from the rule of their sire's blood. Finally, after spending decades acclimating to life in the darkness, the vampire will begin attacking humans to create servants of their very own, while remaining subservient to the vampire that made them.In order to obstruct this infinite cycle, the Church created the Burial Agency, Inquisitors that exist to slay Dead Apostles. The Burial Agency's goal is the utter eradication of all vampires, and the sealing of the 27 Ancestors that made them.

The term vampire refers to dead apostles and the people they turn.

This term is used to refer to True Ancestors and Dead Apostles. True Ancestors were vampires from the moment they came into existence, but Dead Apostles are those who became vampires sometime after their birth.

• Stage VI: Dead Apostle (Inferior) (死徒 (下級), Shito (Kakyū)?) — A completely self-sufficient bloodsucker, who has lost the human ability to procreate. Though these Lords can create children through their bloodsucking incursions, they cannot sire a child that can exceed Rank Ⅵ — what you'd call a limit to these upstarts. Only one out of ten thousand people are able to reach this rank.
  The Vampire lurking in Souya is of this rank. Villages fall prey to the disaster that is a "parent" raising minions. Vlov Arkhangel too was classified in this rank, but somehow managed to skip ahead.[29]

 

[SweetDao]

I received permission from Ultima to comment.

it doesn't say "transcendental" here, it says otherworldly. which is very important, since it's the basis of the disagreement.

You're cooking, tho I anticipated this. Within the album, I purposely explain in detail the word that I was looking after : 超越 (such kanji appears in Arcueid's explanation, obviously)

Furthermore, this scene, as far as I am aware, is exactly the same as the OG one, where "transcendent" was used all throughout the game. Sure, we're talking about the remake and not the OG, but still important to note.

Vampires are basically immortal, only being able to be killed by the Church's conceptual holy weapons, incredibly potent magecraft, or servants. all of which are currently accepted as 4D. despite this, however, the rely on human blood in order to continue their existence. if they don't drink blood, they literally cease to exist. there are also those who become dead apostles and become crazy due to their hunger for blood.

Sure, I'm not denying that. However, not all vampires requires "4D weapon" to kill them. You had a long back and forth with Deagonx regarding this. Even if "some" have indeed 4D durability, it's not the whole race. Roa's doesn't make an exception when stating that fact.
In the context, they are transcendent for him "because they are 'immortal' and stuff" not because "they have 4D durability". If anything, you'll have to prove that when talking about immortality, he's actually also including their "4D nature" (which nothing in the context implies that)

I'm fairly certain she's able to use marble phantasm, which is essentially reality warping, at a lower extent than Arcueid.

But what does it have to do with anything? This is the first time Shiki sees her. He didn't state she is a "transcendental bloodsucker" because she has a marble phantasm. If anything, the particularities that he notes is the fact she's independent of its sire and can create her own faction/spawn more dead to serve her.

Arcueid, who is currently the only True Ancestor we see in the story, is tier 1. there are also tier 1 Dead Apostles, like Roa and Zelretch

Sure, Arcueid is currently tier 1, that much is okay. However, what about the "have transcendental abilities equal or greater than dead apostles"? Again, there is no nitpicking here, either it's equal to all of them or greater than all of them. Of course the ambiguity between equal/greater is because it's Ciel explaining stuff, so not a 100% reliable narrator, but still.

this is actually just very wrong. Yumizuka gained the ability to use a reality marble after becoming a vampire. Noel was able to use marble phantasm after becoming a vampire.

You misinterpreted what I explain, tho it's okay because I don't know how to explain simply.

Vampire = Transcendent species.
Human = Non-transcendent species.
Human bitten = Turn into a vampire = Turn into a transcendent species.

The nuance I'm trying to explain here is that, it's the abilities that you GAIN as a vampire that makes you transcendent, not the race itself. Basically, if you become a vampire, you gain abilities, therefore you become a transcendent too. It's the abilities that make the "transcendent" part, if you remove it, you're just another "normal" species.

Obviously, "being a part of the vampire race" and "gaining abilities" are intrinsically linked, but it doesn't mean one is dependent on the other. Psychic aren't vampires yet can do transcendent stuff.

this is just wrong. the first scan used the word Otherworldly and is now claiming it said Transcendental.

I explained above... Nanaya, you want to make me cry...

I actually explained this before on discord, so let me just get the screenshot of what I said

I don't know how to quote image, so I'm talking about the discord screen.

First, I agree that it's surely because of the different event happening (luminous body and stuff) that the ending drastically change. (Also because one is the normal ending and the other the true ending.)

Second, you seem to misunderstand the intent of Roa's dialogue. I agree that obviously, the true ending monologue is way more lengthy that the normal one, giving way more example of why he made that choice. But, in both case, Roa is doing one single thing : Answer Shiki about why does he reincarnate

Everything you stated about Arcueid is factual, it "may" be the reason why he goes on a longer rant, tho I don't personally believe that's the reason.

Just like seeking happiness is pointless, seeking strength (Like Kiara) is pointless, it doesn't mean he suddenly stated "yeah, there is infinite dimensions/plane of existence". Your interpretation of why he takes Kiara as an example isn't wrong, it can work, but not when stating that "he is stating there is no limit to the number of dimensions". Let the guy rant about his messy life, please.

His "no matter..." quote works perfectly fine without Kiara because he never needed her to make his point valid. Transcendent CAN BE higher-dimensional being, but not necessarily. Transcendental is an umbrella term that deals with everything superhuman/weird/ etc etc...

Being higher-dimensional in this context isn't a value, it's an intrinsic trait of a character/being. That you are "80D" or "4D", you'll still fall into being "higher-dimensional".

For the rest, I can't say much. However...

For example, Aoko, by just using her hair to amplify her magecraft, went from baseline 4-d potency to being able to harm Alice's Flat Snark, a 5-dimensional construct.

No.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Sure, I'm not denying that. However, not all vampires requires "4D weapon" to kill them. You had a long back and forth with Deagonx regarding this. Even if "some" have indeed 4D durability, it's not the whole race. Roa's doesn't make an exception when stating that fact.
In the context, they are transcendent for him "because they are 'immortal' and stuff" not because "they have 4D durability". If anything, you'll have to prove that when talking about immortality, he's actually also including their "4D nature" (which nothing in the context implies that)

Deagon was talking about lower-ranked familiars. you can't even be properly called a dead apostle until rank 6, when you gain complete independence..

You misinterpreted what I explain, tho it's okay because I don't know how to explain simply.

Vampire = Transcendent species.
Human = Non-transcendent species.
Human bitten = Turn into a vampire = Turn into a transcendent species.

The nuance I'm trying to explain here is that, it's the abilities that you GAIN as a vampire that makes you transcendent, not the race itself. Basically, if you become a vampire, you gain abilities, therefore you become a transcendent too. It's the abilities that make the "transcendent" part, if you remove it, you're just another "normal" species.

Obviously, "being a part of the vampire race" and "gaining abilities" are intrinsically linked, but it doesn't mean one is dependent on the other. Psychic aren't vampires yet can do transcendent stuff.

Your rank as a vampire directly relates to the abilities you have at your disposal. you cant become rank 9 without an idea blood, and you cant become rank 8 without being chosen as a successor by a rank 9. You need a strong body and soul foundation to handle them, noel dying due to mass injections of rita rozay en's idea blood displays this.

His "no matter..." quote works perfectly fine without Kiara because he never needed her to make his point valid. Transcendent CAN BE higher-dimensional being, but not necessarily. Transcendental is an umbrella term that deals with everything superhuman/weird/ etc etc...

Being higher-dimensional in this context isn't a value, it's an intrinsic trait of a character/being. That you are "80D" or "4D", you'll still fall into being "higher-dimensional".

Let's assume this is true. Why point out her higher dimensional abilities or her in the first place? Common magecraft isnt typically called Transcendental.

No.

denying what is very clearly stated in mahoyo doesn't change anything

 

[Deagonx]

Deagon was talking about lower-ranked familiars. you can't even be properly called a dead apostle until rank 6, when you gain complete independence

Both are vampires.

 

[KingNanaya]

I received permission from Ultima to comment.

You're cooking, tho I anticipated this. Within the album, I purposely explain in detail the word that I was looking after : 超越 (such kanji appears in Arcueid's explanation, obviously)

Furthermore, this scene, as far as I am aware, is exactly the same as the OG one, where "transcendent" was used all throughout the game. Sure, we're talking about the remake and not the OG, but still important to note.

first, Kanji can have different meanings depending on the context of the sentence, as Qawsedf said on a prior page. second, why not use this scan in the album instead of the one that says otherworldly?

Sure, I'm not denying that. However, not all vampires requires "4D weapon" to kill them. You had a long back and forth with Deagonx regarding this. Even if "some" have indeed 4D durability, it's not the whole race. Roa's doesn't make an exception when stating that fact.

You do need weapons from the church to kill dead apostles.

In the context, they are transcendent for him "because they are 'immortal' and stuff" not because "they have 4D durability".

he doesn't say a reason for why they are considered transcendent, he just says that they are but they suck at existing

But what does it have to do with anything? This is the first time Shiki sees her. He didn't state she is a "transcendental bloodsucker" because she has a marble phantasm.

it's a fact that she does have it though

Sure, Arcueid is currently tier 1, that much is okay. However, what about the "have transcendental abilities equal or greater than dead apostles"? Again, there is no nitpicking here, either it's equal to all of them or greater than all of them. Of course the ambiguity between equal/greater is because it's Ciel explaining stuff, so not a 100% reliable narrator, but still.

there are dead apostles that are tier 1. Roa, Zelretch, Crimson Moon, ORT, Primate Murder, and likely even Altrouge. even dead apostles that aren't tier 1 are able to make things that are tier 1, like the various holy scriptures.

The nuance I'm trying to explain here is that, it's the abilities that you GAIN as a vampire that makes you transcendent, not the race itself. Basically, if you become a vampire, you gain abilities, therefore you become a transcendent too. It's the abilities that make the "transcendent" part, if you remove it, you're just another "normal" species.

Obviously, "being a part of the vampire race" and "gaining abilities" are intrinsically linked, but it doesn't mean one is dependent on the other. Psychic aren't vampires yet can do transcendent stuff.

I'm fairly certain that marble phantasm is something that is exclusive to vampires and them alone. it is a race exclusive ability by nature. and Yumizuka was a regular high school girl who got turned into a vampire. her getting a reality marble was directly due to, and dependent on, her becoming a vampire.

I explained above... Nanaya, you want to make me cry...

suffer and cope

His "no matter..." quote works perfectly fine without Kiara because he never needed her to make his point valid. Transcendent CAN BE higher-dimensional being, but not necessarily.

yes, because he was talking about immortality. he was saying that becoming higher-dimensional wouldn't lead him to the immortality that he wants.

Both are vampires.

no they ain't

 

[KingNanaya]

let me know if I missed anything, I was eating breakfast while typing that response

 

[Deagonx]

no they ain't

You, personally, said they were vampires a few comments ago citing Stage 3 as vampires. Stage 3 are still among "the dead" which are familiars. You can't simultaneously claim familiars aren't vampires when you just said the opposite.

 

[SweetDao]

Deagon was talking about lower-ranked familiars. you can't even be properly called a dead apostle until rank 6, when you gain complete independence..

I see. I double see.

Your rank as a vampire directly relates to the abilities you have at your disposal. you cant become rank 9 without an idea blood, and you cant become rank 8 without being chosen as a successor by a rank 9. You need a strong body and soul foundation to handle them, noel dying due to mass injections of rita rozay en's idea blood displays this.

You don't understand, I'm not saying what you're saying is false, you seem to have way more in depth knowledge that me on the subject. But ultimately, that doesn't refute what I'm saying. It's the abilities that make you transcendent, not the fact you're a vampire.

Let's assume this is true. Why point out her higher dimensional abilities or her in the first place? Common magecraft isnt typically called Transcendental.

Because that's the most extreme example one can think of? She became "omnipotent" how can you get stronger than omnipotence? What would have been the point of Roa saying "yeah, there is this guy who can destroy a town with one punch"? You can realistically imagine someone stronger than the guy I mentioned, but can you realistically imagine someone stronger than Kiara, who became omnipotent? I'm not so sure.

He uses such an extreme example to say that "no matter how far you are in power/strength, you'll still be below something else, so it's pointless to seek this, you'll never reach a point where you can truly be free."

denying what is very clearly stated in mahoyo doesn't change anything

Mages given it random names because they don't know what it is isn't "very clearly stated".

 

[KingNanaya]

You, personally, said they were vampires a few comments ago

I never once said ghouls were vampires.

You can't simultaneously claim familiars aren't vampires when you just said the opposite.

I'm claiming that rank 1 and 2 are not vampires, but familiars, and that rank 3 and up can be considered vampires. it even says here:

Vampire [Term]
A general term for those that suck human blood. Refers specifically to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them. The vampires in Tsukihime extract human blood to maintain their own flesh. If, during this process, the vampire injects their own blood into their human prey, that human will be unable to peacefully pass away. For a normal person, death will still find them before long regardless. However, on rare occasions, if the victim has high physical potential and the capacity of their soul is excellent, they will remain in the world of the living. Afterward, their corpse is interred, and left alone for several years. During this time their brain melts, their soul is liberated from the cage of the body, and finally they arise as a kind of living dead called a "ghoul". As a ghoul, they feed on the corpses sleeping in the graves around them to supplement their own missing flesh, restoring their physical body little by little. After many years of this, they will eventually regain their brain and intelligence. At this stage, they can finally be called a "vampire". However, although this new vampire can move by their own will, they cannot escape from the rule of their sire's blood. Finally, after spending decades acclimating to life in the darkness, the vampire will begin attacking humans to create servants of their very own, while remaining subservient to the vampire that made them. In order to obstruct this infinite cycle, the Church created the Burial Agency, Inquisitors that exist to slay Dead Apostles. The Burial Agency's goal is the utter eradication of all vampires, and the sealing of the 27 Ancestors that made them.

nothing I'm saying is contradictory, and is backed up by my sources.