When The Discussion Cries - New Forum

[Ovy7]

Instead of high 1-B, it would be more accurate to say that she will scale to infinite layers of the witch domain. Even if the system changes, the fact remains that she will scale to the entirety of the witch domain.

Yes, pretty much.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

The currently profiles have some big errors and incoherences. For example, it's accepted that the Witch Domain have an infinite amount of layers, but Lambdadelta and Bernkastel true form keys in which both expand their power over all the Witch Domain are just 1-B

 

[Ovy7]

That was due to the last downgrade CRT which, among other things (like Creator Featherine), concluded that the Voyager's don't expand to the entirety of the Witch Domain, but just to what they had shown to (i.e. around City of Books).

 

[ZwartD]

How can it not be a contradiction if she is X but also the closest to X?? It makes no sense.

Also, Creator is still a witch, the same way Voyager and Teritory Lord are still witches.

Edit: Piece also directly refers to Featherine when she reached the "door" to Creator (i.e. Featherine at her peak) and then she turned back, because passing it would mean the loss of self. So all this excuses that they somehow refer to an avatar of Auau or whatever do not apply here. Featherine ain't a Creator.

Do you have the scan for the door statement?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Piece didn’t say door, but regardless Featherine's main theme is that she's something "like" God/Creator, so her present manifestation we always see is just kind of "one layer" below it, because a lack of restrictions entirely means being outside everything including the "blank page" (0) that creators produce (1) from and back to 0 because they lose their will constantly.

Ryukishi makes a subtle nod to this in a LOOPERS interview where "the world of the god" is basically for people with no will (thus no existence) and that the ones who create are actually subtle entities like Featherine who have a "memory" because that's the only thing sustaining them from having a lack of individuality.

 

[Ovy7]

Yeah, door isn't really the right word, which is why I've put it in quotation marks.

Also, do you happen to have a link to that interview? I haven't payed much attention to Looper stuff cause it ain't canon to WTC, so I've missed that interview.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Also, do you happen to have a link to that interview? I haven't payed much attention to Looper stuff cause it ain't canon to WTC, sonI've missed that interview.

Here you go just ctrl+f God or memory xd but yeah I figured the theme directly applies so it’s good for context

 

[Ovy7]

Here you go just ctrl+f God or memory xd but yeah I figured the theme directly applies so it’s good for context

Thank you! And yes, this theme can also be seen in the last Higu Mei event with Eua.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Here you go just ctrl+f God or memory xd but yeah I figured the theme directly applies so it’s good for context

I mean, there they aren't talking about the realm of creators.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I mean, there they aren't talking about the realm of creators.

Authors like Ryukishi and David lynch do this. They apply a framework across their fictional works and it's extremely clear he's using this as a subtle reference to Umineko

Also because everything goes back to zero, you can’t produce anything. If you write a novel, the pages will go back to being blank. It’s a very rough world for creators, haha.

This is obviously referring to how when Gods lose their will (witch, or more explicitly creator who return their worlds back to 0 after producing 1 from it) they're reliving a cycle of life and death, which is just verbatim what we know about Featherine in her EP 6 profile, and how she was revived by bern after dying when she touched that highest layer.

So I know they aren't directly talking about WTC but the theme he wants to create a connection to is obvious

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

This is obviously referring to how when Gods lose their will (witch, or more explicitly creator who return their worlds back to 0 after producing 1 from it) they're reliving a cycle of life and death, which is just verbatim what we know about Featherine in her EP 6 profile, and how she was revived by bern after dying when she touched that highest layer.

No, it is not. If you read the VN, you'd know that.

In the VN, the protagonists are trapped inside a time loop (hence the name: loopers), where at a certain point of the day, they came back at the same position they were yesterday, as if the day didn't happen. The only thing they do not lose are their memories, everything else: any action they made, any person they killed, any money they spent, comes back to 0.

The reason he mentions creating content is because one of the characters is a youtuber, and another is a mangaka. So every time a day passes, every work they make (writing a page/uploading a video) is erased back to 0.

There is no mention of the realm of creators there. It is a reference to what happens in the very novel, which makes sense, because they're talking about that, and only that, novel.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Anyway, as someone who's played Loopers, I can say there is nothing interesting from scaling pov. The best you could get is (spoiler of the end of the story) is that the loopers were trapped in a parallel world (compared to the normal world/universe) with its own "time" (it is weird. Because even if the time loops, there are echoes (flashbacks) from the past and the future. If you argue it correctly maybe (though I doubt it) you could get an extra time axis. Why is this important? Because the spiral (name given to the time loop) is created through the collective consciousness of all humanity, which shapes the whole universe and defies the physics, being something akin magic. Only one human can use it as a spell with enough preparation (that is what one of the characters made). But besides that, there is nothing important neither scaling-wise, cosmology-wise nor hax-wise.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

No, it is not. If you read the VN, you'd know that.

In the VN, the protagonists are trapped inside a time loop (hence the name: loopers), where at a certain point of the day, they came back at the same position they were yesterday, as if the day didn't happen. The only thing they do not lose are their memories, everything else: any action they made, any person they killed, any money they spent, comes back to 0.

The reason he mentions creating content is because one of the characters is a youtuber, and another is a mangaka. So every time a day passes, every work they make (writing a page/uploading a video) is erased back to 0.

There is no mention of the realm of creators there. It is a reference to what happens in the very novel, which makes sense, because they're talking about that, and only that, novel.

without love it cannot be seen so if you don’t see connection oh well

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

You cannot create a connection where there isn't one.

All the loopers interview is (obviously) talking about Loopers. Trying to say it talks about Umineko is closing your eyes to only see what you want to see

Edit: I also find funny how you ommited in your quote the part which directly says they're talking about the spiral and confirming everything I've said... you really are closing your eyes to see a connection

 

[Ovy7]

Loopers ain't even part of WTC, so this at most would be just thematic similarities, which ain't really new for Ryukishi (or other authors for that matter). Like, I'm legit expecting to see some similarities to WTC in Silent Hill F.

 

[Nekobako]

I feel Powerscaling from magic side in the gameboard is strange for me

If the story of gameboard was written by GM so it doesn't mean GM can write that who would win in that fight?

So Powerscaling from all of the fights from magic side (such as Kyrie VS Leviathan) shouldn't be outlier?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

If we go by that logic, then any verse in which there is an author deciding who'd win cannot be powerscaled because the author-like entity is the one who decides who wins the fight

 

[Guardian_Doge]

You cannot create a connection where there isn't one.

All the loopers interview is (obviously) talking about Loopers. Trying to say it talks about Umineko is closing your eyes to only see what you want to see

Edit: I also find funny how you ommited in your quote the part which directly says they're talking about the spiral and confirming everything I've said... you really are closing your eyes to see a connection

Indeed!!! i close my eyes all the time, i have some vision problems

 

[Nekobako]

There’s actually a very good explanation for this. In 07th, a higher “version” of a character isn’t actually the same character per se.

It may be hard to realize it with Featherine due to the sheer ambiguity surrounding her transcendence, but how about we consider the human -> witch relationship instead. (which is fundamentally the same thing as Featherine’s relationship to a witch)

At the time of her ascendance, Sayo was described as the upper limit of human achievement. She openly said that NO MATTER how much stronger she was, she could NEVER reach the level of a witch on her own. Even with a witch’s sponsorship though notice how it’s still not: “Sayo became a witch,” it is ACTUALLY: “a witch named Beatrice, a version of the once human Sayo, was born.”

Basically the human version of a character can never actually become a witch and vice versa. It’s moreso a version of the human is “reborn” as a higher being. Athough. The same idea can likely be applied to Featherine albeit on a higher playing field.

I'm sorry to say that but I still don't get it.

I didn't see or I'm blind where is the explanation that they didn't transcend the lower world by their own but with any external/influencing from the higher world?



"Can lesser existences unexplainedly interact or potentially interact with the higher existences, on their own, without any external (Or otherwise anomalous) assistance at play?"

I hope that we will have in-depth explanation about this in order to get 1-A instead of being downgraded from 1-A

 

[Lynieryz]

I'm sorry to say that but I still don't get it.

I didn't see or I'm blind where is the explanation that they didn't transcend the lower world by their own but with any external/influencing from the higher world?



"Can lesser existences unexplainedly interact or potentially interact with the higher existences, on their own, without any external (Or otherwise anomalous) assistance at play?"

I hope that we will have in-depth explanation about this in order to get 1-A instead of being downgraded from 1-A

I think what he meant is that this condition doesn't matter because the character in the higher world is not the same as the lower world but rather a "copy" created by the higher world itself.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I'm sorry to say that but I still don't get it.

I didn't see or I'm blind where is the explanation that they didn't transcend the lower world by their own but with any external/influencing from the higher world?

Sayo only became a witch because Lambdadelta (an already witch being) promoted her to become one

 

[Nekobako]

Sayo only became a witch because Lambdadelta (an already witch being) promoted her to become one

It was stated in the confession that she transcended the plane of human (aka.Human domain) by creating the Catbox and Gameboard/Fragments but she still need other witch to prove that she's really a witch.



(That's similar to Battler became a Witch by himself in Ep5 and 6)

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Lambdadelta decided to guard Battler in episode 6 iirc

Also, Lambdadelta is the one who did let Beatrice become a true witch. She threatened Beatrice to end with Battler or otherwise she'd turn Beatrice back to human some times in the novel iirc

Edit: Found it

 

[Ovy7]

Anyone remember that time Battler used a lightning-infused Truth...

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Virgin Manga Battler using a lightning truth vs chad Golden Fantasia Battler throwing a blue truth kame hame ha

 

[Nekobako]

Lambdadelta decided to guard Battler in episode 6 iirc

Also, Lambdadelta is the one who did let Beatrice become a true witch. She threatened Beatrice to end with Battler or otherwise she'd turn Beatrice back to human some times in the novel iirc

Edit: Found it

Tbh,
1. I didn't focus on being/not being a true witch but the point is transcending the lower world by their own or by the influencing of the higher world (unless being/not being a true witch is related to that)

2. This is also related to how Featherine got 1-A by transcending infinite layers of the witch domain


Both of them have a huge anti-feat to getting 1-A also Featherine won't be 1-A anymore due to the reason based on the third question from Ultima.
if it's wrong, please elaborate

 

[Ovy7]

Don't think so, as it's something caracteristic to the cosmology itself and not to an entity. IIRC, it should qualify under this circumstance And I also remember Ultima using umineko in the commoners thread as example.

^^^^

 

[Nekobako]

^^^^

Can you give an in-depth explanation about that? (I'm not sure because of your "IIRC", sorry)

Or

I also remember Ultima using umineko in the commoners thread as example.

Ultima used it as an example for the new R>F? (Because I didn't see when Ultima mentioned that)

 

[Ovy7]

From what I understood, if the cosmology allows for an evolution through the layers by some metaphysical aspect, then it's ok. IIRC, Ultima even talked about something like this in his Tier 0 thread about becoming a Tier 0 without being an anti-feat.

The anti-feat is when there isn't a cosmology-bound element and the characters are doing it through their own powers.

 

[Ovy7]

It's also worth mentioning that the requirements haven't even been laid out yet on the wiki to actually see what qualifies and what doesn't. IIRC, there would be a thread to see what series qualify after all the Tier System CRTs are done.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Tbh,
1. I didn't focus on being/not being a true witch but the point is transcending the lower world by their own or by the influencing of the higher world (unless being/not being a true witch is related to that)

Battler was a meta-being from the get-go. It’s not like Sayo’s case at all. Even though he didn’t hold the rank of a witch until ep5, meta-battler still stood above the human world (I.e., ep2). This is nothing like Sayo at all. Sayo was/is an inferior being who was/is the highest ranked among humans. After Lambadelta’s authorization, Beatrice was born as a manifestation of her, and is Not literally Sayo (human) herself.

Let me give you another example, in Rika’s case, notice how Bernkastel is specifically the manifestation of Rika’s despair. Not literally rika (human) herself. This, implies that specific aspects of humans can influence the creation of a new witch. Not that the humans themselves are literally becoming witches.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Tbh,
1. I didn't focus on being/not being a true witch but the point is transcending the lower world by their own or by the influencing of the higher world (unless being/not being a true witch is related to that)

I meed to check memoirs of lambda, but from what I know to actually reach the Witch Domain you need to be recognized like that from a witch

And anyway, I think someone said that Ultima agreed that becoming tier 1 from your own goals is possible sometimes, and Umineko literally fulfill all other conditions, and it is said several times that someone within the game board cannot reach beyond it.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Don’t know if anyone is watching Frieren right now, but there’s a scene where Fern is playing with….. a black cat. Looks awfully reminiscent of someone else we know….

Like the similarities are uncanny lol

 

[Railgun]

Don’t know if anyone is watching Frieren right now, but there’s a scene where Fern is playing with….. a black cat. Looks awfully reminiscent of someone else we know….

Like the similarities are uncanny lol

Fernkastel frfr

 

[Nekobako]

Does the Red Truth works in VS with other verse?

How does it apply to SBA??

 

[Ovy7]

I think it works like pretty much all other verse-specific abilities under the SBA: they work like they are supposed to work in universe.

 

[Nekobako]

I think it works like pretty much all other verse-specific abilities under the SBA: they work like they are supposed to work in universe.

I should say that I confused about the condition to use it
Specific abilities in other verses can be used normally and Verse equalization just makes those specific abilities are able to affect or can be resisted in other verses.

However even in Umineko, it can't be used in the condition when it conflicts with the reality.

Does SBA affect or change on this condition also?

 

[Ovy7]

They pretty much should work like they do in Umineko. Like, if Battler tried to use Red against Naruto to claim that Naruto's hair is purple, then Battler would choke (like he did when he tried to say that he's Asumu's child).

Or do you mean something else?

 

[Nekobako]

They pretty much should work like they do in Umineko. Like, if Battler tried to use Red against Naruto to claim that Naruto's hair is purple, then Battler would choke (like he did when he tried to say that he's Asumu's child).

Or do you mean something else?

That's what I mean.
So Red Truth will be a useless ability in VS other verses?
Like, it can't be used to deny the existence and power because they're really exist.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

That's what I mean.
So Red Truth will be a useless ability in VS other verses?
Like, it can't be used to deny the existence and power because they're really exist.

I mean, Dlanor can claim that she will not allow something to exist following Knox 10 rules despite Beatrice's game is not stated to follow said rules (and Dlanor using Knox rules does not mean the game follows the rules, but Battler must specifically ask Beatrice if said rules are followed or not), and it is stated that Knox rules are nothing but a way of thinking, not followed by all stories and all rules are up to one's interpretation. Also, Beatrice could use Red Truth to not to allow any magic but hers to exist within her Golden Land.

Anyway, Game Masters can decide what Red Truth is, so they should be able to use it freely without that restriction.