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When The Discussion Cries - New Forum
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Question about Nonduality
1. How Creators got Transduality type 2 in the first place (because they're freed from all restrictions???)
2. How Creators got Nonduality type 2?
I thought just lacking of all dualities is just type 1
Anyone can explain the part about Qualitative superiority?
3. Why Featherine (1-A) doesn't have it by default in her profile since she is a creator?
1. How Creators got Transduality type 2 in the first place (because they're freed from all restrictions???)
2. How Creators got Nonduality type 2?
I thought just lacking of all dualities is just type 1
Anyone can explain the part about Qualitative superiority?
3. Why Featherine (1-A) doesn't have it by default in her profile since she is a creator?
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Probably because of this
I was about to say that this wiki doesn't consider FAA as a creator but I just saw that the classification on her profile says she is a creator lol
Ovy7
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- #608
If we are taking stuff at face value, then endless into 1A, with some High 1A for Featherine, and Creator/s also fulfill some Tier 0 requirements. A case could be made for stuff in Human Domain already being 1A, but that's stretching.
In general I don't want to give a concrete tier until all the standards are clearly layed out.
In general I don't want to give a concrete tier until all the standards are clearly layed out.
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Regarding the Creator(s), since the new tiering system allows multiple tier 0 characters to exist but they must be multiple parts/facets/aspects of the same being, and to my knowledge this is not the case for Umineko. How do you intend to solve this problem?
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Creators as they are right now cannot be tier 0 due to that, since Featherine and Future Maria would be different entities, yet creators
Also, didn't Ultima state reaching tier 0 is impossible, due to the fact that if a character has potential to reach tier 0 then tier 0 is not unbounded by potentiallity? I mean reaching tier 0 as in case of characters like Beatrice, Maria or SCP-3812 who become more trascendental/stronger, btw
Also, didn't Ultima state reaching tier 0 is impossible, due to the fact that if a character has potential to reach tier 0 then tier 0 is not unbounded by potentiallity? I mean reaching tier 0 as in case of characters like Beatrice, Maria or SCP-3812 who become more trascendental/stronger, btw
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Yeah, I know, but now she's accepted to be one, so...
That should be changed first before even trying to apply tier 0 for Creators. Also, idk if Maria would still contradict it, wouldn't she still mantain her identity despite becoming a Creator?
That should be changed first before even trying to apply tier 0 for Creators. Also, idk if Maria would still contradict it, wouldn't she still mantain her identity despite becoming a Creator?
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Btw do you think kakera qualifies for concept type 1? Is the kakera itself a concept or does it contain concept within itself?
Ovy7
He/Him- 2,619
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- #614
Ah yes, the Maria thing might be a problem. Better wait for Ultime to lay down all the standards before anything else (not that I plan a tiering revision any time soon).
Kakera are the conceptual form of insert thing here. Dunno if they are type 1 tho, I'm not good when it comes to P&As.
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Didn't Ultima say that a real 1-A realm can not be reached by any amount of lower realm? In the case of Umineko we can combine multiple lower realms to create a higher realm (catbox), which will not fit into the new tiering system as a real 1-A realm. I know there are scans that state those higher realms in Umineko also treat lower realms as gameboard/fragments (fiction) , but that will contradict the nature existence of those realms.
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Tbf, catboxes are seen like kakeras compared to a higher plane
And iirc the only time it is said to be like that is in Bern's catbox, in which case what is made by several kakeras fused together is the Human Domain –where Ushiromiya family resides– of said catbox (so Lion can be placed), so I do not see a contradiction here.
And iirc the only time it is said to be like that is in Bern's catbox, in which case what is made by several kakeras fused together is the Human Domain –where Ushiromiya family resides– of said catbox (so Lion can be placed), so I do not see a contradiction here.
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I won't spend time discussing how the term catbox, fragment/kakera, and gameboard can be used interchangeably. But the nature of catbox itself is made up of an infinite number of fragments, Bernkastel's catbox should hold a similar nature to any kind of catbox in the verse, so that will affect all catboxes. And there are other catboxes similar to the one Bern found, like Black Battler's catbox or some unknown catboxes mentioned throughout the series.
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Catboxes are not made up of infinite fragments, they contain infinite fragments.
It makes no sense for catboxes to be made up of infinite fragments of the Human domain, since there are parts of said catboxes which can see the fragments as that, fragments. It is illogical to say that catboxes are made by something, yet there are places within said catboxes which are beyond said something they're made of.
It's like saying a catbox is a house, but within a house is contained a hypercube, it makes no sense because due to its nature a hypercube cannot be contained within a 3D structure
It makes no sense for catboxes to be made up of infinite fragments of the Human domain, since there are parts of said catboxes which can see the fragments as that, fragments. It is illogical to say that catboxes are made by something, yet there are places within said catboxes which are beyond said something they're made of.
It's like saying a catbox is a house, but within a house is contained a hypercube, it makes no sense because due to its nature a hypercube cannot be contained within a 3D structure
Ovy7
He/Him- 2,619
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- #621
The combining wasn't to make a higher realm, but to create a new lower realm fitting Bernkastel's needs. And was made by someone in said higher realm. For it to contradict Ultima's system it would need the beings from the lower realm to reach a higher realm by combining lower realm stuff, which is not what happened. What Bern did is like an author that takes two books and combines them into 1 single book.
Not to mention that the combination is of the conceptual form in the higher realm of these lower realms. There is still a R>F author difference.
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I must have misread what Ultima proposed in that thread, thank you for clearing up my misconception. Btw when I said higher realm I meant "higher realm" compared to the lower world being than Bernkastel and not herself.
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If I understand it correctly, it should.
In Umineko there are proof that characters from higher domains see lower domains as books/kakeras/games/chessboards.
Additionally, there are statements in-verse which prove that the events inside of the gameboard only matter inside of said gameboard, but outside of it said events are nothing but a movement of pieces/a game; there are author statements that beings in the Meta-World are like actors who play different roles in the Human domain like Harrison Ford playing Hana Solo and Indiana Jones, which is supported by Lambdadelta choosing which character she wants to play in Hotarubi the same way a player chooses which character they want to play inside a videogame and there are statements that humans cannot reach the Witch Domain
In Umineko there are proof that characters from higher domains see lower domains as books/kakeras/games/chessboards.
Additionally, there are statements in-verse which prove that the events inside of the gameboard only matter inside of said gameboard, but outside of it said events are nothing but a movement of pieces/a game; there are author statements that beings in the Meta-World are like actors who play different roles in the Human domain like Harrison Ford playing Hana Solo and Indiana Jones, which is supported by Lambdadelta choosing which character she wants to play in Hotarubi the same way a player chooses which character they want to play inside a videogame and there are statements that humans cannot reach the Witch Domain
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Well, do you guys think Creator could be 0?
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the high 1-A+ FAA
vsbattles.com
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the high 1-A+ FAA
Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0
Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
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No, check the disqualifiers. Creator has many
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"Anyone who reaches the Creator would lose their will and become one with him"
I got this from Maria's profile.
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The new event from higurashi mei also stated that such being like that should not be able to exist cuz they will disappear the moment they reach that level, so.....
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damn
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Yet she was fated to become a Creator, "the strongest creator", and she's accepted as so, so she should mantain her personality.
Anyway, Featherine is accepted as a creator here, so tier 0 is not possible for creators. And even if you leave that aside, Maria reaching tier 0 –even if she became part of creator after that (which I doubt), she still had potential to reach creators, so it'd contradict tier 0's new definition–
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Yes, you're right, I'm still against the Featherine being a creator tho
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Here are the texts btw
エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さに
The space in which Eua exists is filled with the greatness of her omniscient and all-powerful self.
エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さには相応しくないほどに殺風景である。
The space Eua is in is so barren that it is unbecoming of her greatness, who is omniscient and omnipotent.
カケラの海にぞんざいに浮かべた床と、その上にほんのいくつかの洋風家具を置いただけなのだ。
It was just a floor floating roughly in a sea of fragments and a few pieces of Western-style furniture placed on top of it.
望めば、山より高い荘厳な宮殿も、地の彼方まで広がる庭園も、瞬きひとつで生み出せるのに、である。
If you wanted, you could create a majestic palace higher than a mountain or a garden that stretches to the far reaches of the earth in the blink of an eye.
まさにこの荒涼とした光景こそが、退屈の病の、荒み切った末期症状なのだ。
This desolate scene is the harsh final symptom of the disease of boredom.
それは、どれほど偉大な魔女であっても逃れることの出来め、死のIt's a deadly disease that no matter how great a witch is, she can't escape it.
全知全能であればあるほど、神の力に近ければ近いほどに罹りやすく、抗うことが難しいのだ。
The more omniscient and omnipotent you are, and the closer you are to the power of God, the more susceptible you are to it, and the more difficult it is to resist it.
だからこそ。神なる者は存在しないのだ。全知全能であるならばこそ、この病に罹り、カケラの海に沈んで藻屑と消える。
That's why. God does not exist. If you are omniscient and omnipotent, you will contract this disease, sink into the sea of fragments, and disappear into dust.
The space in which Eua exists is filled with the greatness of her omniscient and all-powerful self.
エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さには相応しくないほどに殺風景である。
The space Eua is in is so barren that it is unbecoming of her greatness, who is omniscient and omnipotent.
カケラの海にぞんざいに浮かべた床と、その上にほんのいくつかの洋風家具を置いただけなのだ。
It was just a floor floating roughly in a sea of fragments and a few pieces of Western-style furniture placed on top of it.
望めば、山より高い荘厳な宮殿も、地の彼方まで広がる庭園も、瞬きひとつで生み出せるのに、である。
If you wanted, you could create a majestic palace higher than a mountain or a garden that stretches to the far reaches of the earth in the blink of an eye.
まさにこの荒涼とした光景こそが、退屈の病の、荒み切った末期症状なのだ。
This desolate scene is the harsh final symptom of the disease of boredom.
それは、どれほど偉大な魔女であっても逃れることの出来め、死のIt's a deadly disease that no matter how great a witch is, she can't escape it.
全知全能であればあるほど、神の力に近ければ近いほどに罹りやすく、抗うことが難しいのだ。
The more omniscient and omnipotent you are, and the closer you are to the power of God, the more susceptible you are to it, and the more difficult it is to resist it.
だからこそ。神なる者は存在しないのだ。全知全能であるならばこそ、この病に罹り、カケラの海に沈んで藻屑と消える。
That's why. God does not exist. If you are omniscient and omnipotent, you will contract this disease, sink into the sea of fragments, and disappear into dust.
Ovy7
He/Him- 2,619
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- #637
Eh, looking at the disqualifiers, the only one that you can say the Creator doesn't pass is the one about characters being able to become it. But even then, Ultima did state that this could not matter under certain circumstances, and one could make a case for the ascension to Creator by shedding away restrictions to fall under those certain circumstances.
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Right now, there'd be multiple creators (Featherine and Maria), so there are two.
Once it fixed, then maybe you could try it
Once it fixed, then maybe you could try it
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