When The Discussion Cries - New Forum

[Ovy7]

It was Beatrice

 

[Nekobako]

"If a witch's strength is measured by the height of the world they are capable of reaching.. She was like a witch come back from the realm of the gods, the one who had touched the highest, forbidden heights and survived."

Can we describe "a witch's strength" as her hax or something?
(like Featherine 1-B has 1-A plot hax)

 

[Unqver]

Right now, there'd be multiple creators (Featherine and Maria), so there are two.

Once it fixed, then maybe you could try it

? Isn't the description of featherine the closest to creator's witch? At best, the description is that he once went to the realm of Creator and then returned

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

? Isn't the description of featherine the closest to creator's witch? At best, the description is that he once went to the realm of Creator and then returned

When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I complained about some Umineko stuff for quite some times now ever since the big revision we did, and it's time to do more than complaining. Thanks to anyone who helped, either directly or indirectly. Anyway, I know it'll obviously be a controversial thread, but since...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ovy7]

Truth be told, I'm fine with High 1A Creators. The tier 0 is just the nostalgia in me talking xD

 

[ZwartD]

? Isn't the description of featherine the closest to creator's witch? At best, the description is that he once went to the realm of Creator and then returned

Well in Saku it was confirmed that Featherine was the closest to the Creator despite her transcending to the Creator's realm. Maybe she exists in the same plane with the Creator but is still weaker than the Creator itself.

 

[MrKerf]

Truth be told, I'm fine with High 1A Creators. The tier 0 is just the nostalgia in me talking xD

Well, even The Creator would still technically be reachable, so I doubt he’d be Tier 0 in Ultima’s system.

 

[Ovy7]

Well, even The Creator would still technically be reachable, so I doubt he’d be Tier 0 in Ultima’s system.

Well, Ultima said in the discussion thread that it won't really be an anti-feat

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Brief question, but could someone tell me where Eva Ushiromiya scales under the current cosmology? Thanks.

 

[Unqver]

Brief question, but could someone tell me where Eva Ushiromiya scales under the current cosmology? Thanks.

1-A？

 

[Nekobako]

Does Creator have Monad?

 

[Railgun]

Brief question, but could someone tell me where Eva Ushiromiya scales under the current cosmology? Thanks.

In current cosmology, she is 1-B with countless D. She scales to the City of Books

 

[Nekobako]

Here are the texts btw

Spoiler

エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さに
The space in which Eua exists is filled with the greatness of her omniscient and all-powerful self.
エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さには相応しくないほどに殺風景である。
The space Eua is in is so barren that it is unbecoming of her greatness, who is omniscient and omnipotent.
カケラの海にぞんざいに浮かべた床と、その上にほんのいくつかの洋風家具を置いただけなのだ。
It was just a floor floating roughly in a sea of fragments and a few pieces of Western-style furniture placed on top of it.
望めば、山より高い荘厳な宮殿も、地の彼方まで広がる庭園も、瞬きひとつで生み出せるのに、である。
If you wanted, you could create a majestic palace higher than a mountain or a garden that stretches to the far reaches of the earth in the blink of an eye.
まさにこの荒涼とした光景こそが、退屈の病の、荒み切った末期症状なのだ。
This desolate scene is the harsh final symptom of the disease of boredom.
それは、どれほど偉大な魔女であっても逃れることの出来め、死のIt's a deadly disease that no matter how great a witch is, she can't escape it.
全知全能であればあるほど、神の力に近ければ近いほどに罹りやすく、抗うことが難しいのだ。
The more omniscient and omnipotent you are, and the closer you are to the power of God, the more susceptible you are to it, and the more difficult it is to resist it.
だからこそ。神なる者は存在しないのだ。全知全能であるならばこそ、この病に罹り、カケラの海に沈んで藻屑と消える。
That's why. God does not exist. If you are omniscient and omnipotent, you will contract this disease, sink into the sea of fragments, and disappear into dust.

You can read the whole event summary here

It seems like no witch cannot be Creator anymore and Maria untapped potential should be nuked due to this reason.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

They're talking that no one can be a Creator because they'd end bored and disappear, but Maria's untapped potential supposedly allows her to create anything without getting bored, so her untapped potential should not be affected anyway

It should, however, support that Featherine is not a creator if we consider Eua as past Featherine or just Featherine manifestation in Higurashi

 

[Nekobako]

I have a question
If witches can access the higher layer by leaving some of restriction like Featherine did in order to transcend the Witch domain's hierachy.

This won't be an anti-feat for R>F???? because witches can access higher layer (the Reality) by themselves
Fiction cannot interacts with reality by anyway (even travelling or teleportation) without helping from reality.

 

[Ovy7]

Don't think so, as it's something caracteristic to the cosmology itself and not to an entity. IIRC, it should qualify under this circumstance And I also remember Ultima using umineko in the commoners thread as example.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I have a question
If witches can access the higher layer by leaving some of restriction like Featherine did in order to transcend the Witch domain's hierachy.

This won't be an anti-feat for R>F???? because witches can access higher layer (the Reality) by themselves
Fiction cannot interacts with reality by anyway (even travelling or teleportation) without helping from reality.

There’s actually a very good explanation for this. In 07th, a higher “version” of a character isn’t actually the same character per se.

It may be hard to realize it with Featherine due to the sheer ambiguity surrounding her transcendence, but how about we consider the human -> witch relationship instead. (which is fundamentally the same thing as Featherine’s relationship to a witch)

At the time of her ascendance, Sayo was described as the upper limit of human achievement. She openly said that NO MATTER how much stronger she was, she could NEVER reach the level of a witch on her own. Even with a witch’s sponsorship though notice how it’s still not: “Sayo became a witch,” it is ACTUALLY: “a witch named Beatrice, a version of the once human Sayo, was born.”

Basically the human version of a character can never actually become a witch and vice versa. It’s moreso a version of the human is “reborn” as a higher being. Athough. The same idea can likely be applied to Featherine albeit on a higher playing field.

 

[Nekobako]

I don't understand why Featherine shouldn't be a Creator

1. They are taking about restrictions and lack of restrictions which is a state of Creator (not sure about the translation) and Featherine reached that peak (state of Creator) and then returned as a Witch

2. According to this

Here are the texts btw

Spoiler

エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さに
The space in which Eua exists is filled with the greatness of her omniscient and all-powerful self.
エウアのいる空間は、全知にして万能なる彼女の偉大さには相応しくないほどに殺風景である。
The space Eua is in is so barren that it is unbecoming of her greatness, who is omniscient and omnipotent.
カケラの海にぞんざいに浮かべた床と、その上にほんのいくつかの洋風家具を置いただけなのだ。
It was just a floor floating roughly in a sea of fragments and a few pieces of Western-style furniture placed on top of it.
望めば、山より高い荘厳な宮殿も、地の彼方まで広がる庭園も、瞬きひとつで生み出せるのに、である。
If you wanted, you could create a majestic palace higher than a mountain or a garden that stretches to the far reaches of the earth in the blink of an eye.
まさにこの荒涼とした光景こそが、退屈の病の、荒み切った末期症状なのだ。
This desolate scene is the harsh final symptom of the disease of boredom.
それは、どれほど偉大な魔女であっても逃れることの出来め、死のIt's a deadly disease that no matter how great a witch is, she can't escape it.
全知全能であればあるほど、神の力に近ければ近いほどに罹りやすく、抗うことが難しいのだ。
The more omniscient and omnipotent you are, and the closer you are to the power of God, the more susceptible you are to it, and the more difficult it is to resist it.
だからこそ。神なる者は存在しないのだ。全知全能であるならばこそ、この病に罹り、カケラの海に沈んで藻屑と消える。
That's why. God does not exist. If you are omniscient and omnipotent, you will contract this disease, sink into the sea of fragments, and disappear into dust.

You can read the whole event summary here

"This desolate scene is the harsh final symptom of the disease of boredom."
"It's a deadly disease that no matter how great a witch is, she can't escape it."
"The more omniscient and omnipotent you are, and the closer you are to the power of God, the more susceptible you are to it, and the more difficult it is to resist it."
"That's why. God does not exist. If you are omniscient and omnipotent, you will contract this disease, sink into the sea of fragments, and disappear into dust."

As a result, she was cursed a deadly aliment (aka.the disease of boredom) at the highest and forbidden heights

They aren't enough to support for Featherine as a Creator??

 

[Ovy7]

In Last Note it's directly stated that she is the closest to the Creator. You can't be the closest to a thing if you are that thing so, logically, she ain't a Creator.

 

[Lynieryz]

Isn't it explicitly said that she didn't open the door? Or am I remembering wrong?

Featherine is the strongest one can become without becoming the creator.

I'll give you an example: imagine that the cosmology is a tower with a spiral staircase that goes up and leads to a door, the higher you are on this tower the stronger you are and anyone who crosses that door becomes a creator; What Featherine did was get as far as you can get without becoming a creator: the door, and she refused to open the door and become a creator.

 

[Nekobako]

In Last Note it's directly stated that she is the closest to the Creator. You can't be the closest to a thing if you are that thing so, logically, she ain't a Creator.

"Featherine is a Creator" and "the highest ranking witch who is the closet witch to a Creator" are not a contradiction when they mentioned Featherine as a witch.

Featherine can't be the closest witch to a Creator if she's a Creator who isn't a witch anymore because witch and Creator cannot be the same being.
Also saying like the highest ranking witch who is a Creator is a contradiction.

 

[Ovy7]

How can it not be a contradiction if she is X but also the closest to X?? It makes no sense.

Also, Creator is still a witch, the same way Voyager and Teritory Lord are still witches.

Edit: Piece also directly refers to Featherine when she reached the "door" to Creator (i.e. Featherine at her peak) and then she turned back, because passing it would mean the loss of self. So all this excuses that they somehow refer to an avatar of Auau or whatever do not apply here. Featherine ain't a Creator.

 

[Nekobako]

How can it not be a contradiction if she is X but also the closest to X?? It makes no sense.

Also, Creator is still a witch, the same way Voyager and Teritory Lord are still witches.

Edit: Piece also directly refers to Featherine when she reached the "door" to Creator and then she turned back, because passing it would mean the loss of self. So all this excuses that they somehow refer to an avatar of Auau or whatever do not apply here. Featherine ain't a Creator.

The door is understandable
But how a Creator is still a witch since witches are in the middle between a Creator and human?
(Voyager and Territory lord are still a witch because they're still in the world of witch)
I thought they're separated from the context about the fate and gameboard as Human/Witch/Creator

Btw, Featherine tier will get downgraded or not? or still the same but the third domain will come back?

 

[Ovy7]

The way the VN categorizes the three is what makes me think that they are all just different tiers of Witches. Tho I guess what you said above is also true.

Btw, Featherine tier will get downgraded or not? or still the same but the third domain will come back?

Downgraded from being a Creator? Yes. From her tier? Likely not, especially as the entire verse would get an upgrade from Ultima's tier system revision.

 

[Ovy7]

Also, I think there should be a 3rd Domain or something like it, as Auau is explicitly beyond the domain of Witches.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Also, I think there should be a 3rd Domain or something like it, as Auau is explicitly beyond the domain of Witches.

I guess this comes from Higurashi Mei, do you know the event where this is stated?

 

[Ovy7]

I guess this comes from Higurashi Mei, do you know the event where this is stated?

It's from Umineko, the scan with the chessboad background where it directly stated that Featherine sees the world of witches the same way that witches sees humans. It's like one most popular scans lol.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Oh, read Auau as Eua lol. My bad

 

[Ovy7]

Talking about Eua, there is a note in the script files of one of her Mei events that calls her the strongest Witch, sooo

Exit: I'm also working for a profile for her, tho it's still incomplete...

 

[Lynieryz]

Well, Featherine's level doesn't come from an additional domain, but it doesn't have a name other than the "creator's door," so it doesn't matter what we call it.

 

[Ovy7]

We'll just say that her true form is beyond the domain of witches (like we are currently saying) and call it a day.

 

[Nekobako]

Talking about Eua, there is a note in the script files of one of her Mei events that calls her the strongest Witch, sooo

Exit: I'm also working for a profile for her, tho it's still incomplete...

That's interesting
Can you give the full context about that? Or not coming event?

 

[Ovy7]

That's interesting
Can you give the full context about that? Or not coming event?

It's from an older Mei event, IIRC the one where Eua summons Satoko to the meta world and asks her for food or something. In the script file of that event there's a line that says 【最強の魔女】エウア, which pretty much translates to The Strongest Witch Eua.

 

[Railgun]

Talking about Eua, there is a note in the script files of one of her Mei events that calls her the strongest Witch, sooo

Exit: I'm also working for a profile for her, tho it's still incomplete...

Eua's AP section looks to me like you are scaling the witch domain to 1-A. Or am I delusional?
I mean, where exactly do we scale Eua? Do we just say it's superior to the human domain and scale her to the baseline of the witch domain?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

She should by no means scale only to the baseline of the Witch Domain.

She is more powerful than Hanyuu (who iirc is accepted as stronger than Beatrice), and in one of the anime episodes she sees Hanyuu and Rika interaction in the sea of fragments as a Kakera

 

[Railgun]

She is more powerful than Hanyuu (who iirc is accepted as stronger than Beatrice)

the existence of this scaling completely slipped from my mind

 

[Ovy7]

Eua's AP section looks to me like you are scaling the witch domain to 1-A.

The profile is copied from Eua's profile from another wiki (profile also made by me), where she's 1A, so that's a leftover from there. But I don't see a point in changing it in the sandbox.

I mean, where exactly do we scale Eua? Do we just say it's superior to the human domain and scale her to the baseline of the witch domain?

The highball would be as strong as Featherine, at least as strong as her Witch Domain key. The scale for the Eua in Higu catbox would be at some lvl of the Witch Domain, but not baseline. She's at least a layer above Hanyuu, as Eua's Sea of Fragments contains Hanyuu's entire Sea of Fragments as just one Kakera.

 

[Railgun]

The profile is copied from Eua's profile from another wiki (profile also made by me), where she's 1A, so that's a leftover from there. But I don't see a point in changing it in the sandbox.

Oh, the AFB one

The highball would be as strong as Featherine, at least as strong as her Witch Domain key. The scale for the Eua in Higu catbox would be at some lvl of the Witch Domain, but not baseline. She's at least a layer above Hanyuu, as Eua's Sea of Fragments contains Hanyuu's entire Sea of Fragments as just one Kakera.

That makes sense, and I would like to ask: Shouldn't Featherine's Witch domain key be high 1-B?

Resides in the highest layers of existence, possibly the one right before the Kingdom of God, where her true self resides

 

[Ovy7]

That makes sense, and I would like to ask: Shouldn't Featherine's Witch domain key be high 1-B?

Probably, but this is kinda meaningless right now due to the current tier system revision.

Oh, the AFB one

maybe

 

[Railgun]

Probably, but this is kinda meaningless right now due to the current tier system revision.

Instead of high 1-B, it would be more accurate to say that she will scale to infinite layers of the witch domain. Even if the system changes, the fact remains that she will scale to the entirety of the witch domain.