When Silent Protagonists duke it out

[Blunt_Claw]

That's just cherry picking
"hey, in the game we using it's like this, but another game has better number so let's use that instead".

And we're using the 3H key actually, 3H2 is a diff key so...

I mean my issue isn't them having it, it's the fact shit evidently doesnt work the same. I could make a CRT? Tbh this seems kind of loose. It's like with Pokemon, everyone used to be like "oh dark void is a spawn move, so it cant be dodged", while using anime Darkrai whose dark void is a projectile, like bruh, if we using 3Houses, I dont mind using FEW stuff, but can we at least treat it AS it is in 3H
Also you did mention IC stuff below with Link, but it goes both ways, if Byleth doesn't use this extra stuff in 3H, but does in FEW, why would it be assumed IC for a 3 key?

As far as I can tell Three Houses and Three Hopes are alternate universes to eachother (Engage makes it clear that there is a multiverse), so their versions of Byleth seem like they should be seperate to me.

I would like it if Gatememer explained the reasoning behind Three Hopes stuff being used on the main profile.

 

[Chariot190]

fr tho, Link can flash cool lava (aim is kinda fucky tho, depends how much of the AOE hits the lava, ive got it to make like 6 tiles tho all around him with some items).

Also Muddle Bud res clip for whoever wants to make that CRT. I'm cooking up some other stuff as well, my file isn't 100% so it's a bit hard tho.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Alright, the Time Stop CRT is finished, but now Kobster has to specify if Link should be granted "Limited" or "Full" movement during Stasis's freeze.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Alright, the Time Stop CRT is finished, but now Kobster has to specify if Link should be granted "Limited" or "Full" movement during Stasis's freeze.

Would the latter make this fight a stomp

 

[Chariot190]

Byleth has "Time Stop" too, the specifics, unsure of tho.

If it's like some JoJo DIO vs Jotaro shit it should be fine, if not yeah probably Link doesnt have a limit

 

[KobsterHope07]

Byleth can stop time. But in this key, they are unable to move, thus can only think and/or rewind time (the latter of which will waste one Divine Pulse charge)

 

[Chariot190]

Well if they cant Link just kinda uses infinite time stop and kills them in literally 0 seconds so...

Maybe do the more limited version of it.

 

[CrackerVolley]

So are Gatememer and Chariot going to start heavy debating again, or can I cast my vote for Link for reasons outside of sheer, unapologetic bias?

 

[Chariot190]

I'm kinda going through a thing right now so doubt im heavy debating today

 

[CrackerVolley]

Anyways, I vote for Link. While all the various abilities and generally better stat boosting and heals allow him to keep up with Byleth's skill and Divine Pulse and potentially just end the fight with a Ancient Arrowhead (they can also be fused to melee weapons btw), what really tips the scales are the Sage avatars.

It's basically four extra dudes that are a little bit less skilled than Link, but fight autonomously. They can't really be put down like the Zonai builds either. At best, they are either staggered by attacks or forced to trip and fall on the ground.

Basically imagine if Link just had four adjutants to back him up, and they're all immortal.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

I also vote Link for similar reasons to CrackerVolley.

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[KobsterHope07]

Bump

 

[TheGatememer]

Lost interest in this debate a while back, but here’s a scan showing that Flurry Rush isn’t just something that is activated with a thought:

"[Royal broadsword?] The royal broadsword was used by knights to guard members of the royal family. Its counterattack power when dodging an enemy attack is potent. But my own swordplay isn't there yet, so I can't make the most of that sword at this point." — Aja(Tears of the Kingdom)

Here it’s specifically referred to as a “counterattack” technique, which is consistent with how it works in gameplay, and the fact that Link claims it’s a thing that just sometimes happens when he focuses, as opposed to him claiming that it always happens when he focuses.

 

[CrackerVolley]

You say that, but gameplay does show it as being a consistent technique assuming its a follow up to a close range dodge.

 

[Chariot190]

Lost interest in this debate a while back, but here’s a scan showing that Flurry Rush isn’t just something that is activated with a thought:



Here it’s specifically referred to as a “counterattack” technique, which is consistent with how it works in gameplay, and the fact that Link claims it’s a thing that just sometimes happens when he focuses, as opposed to him claiming that it always happens when he focuses.

Not a statement talking about Link so moot point.
Also ignores the fact flurry can and will activate in multiple instances that don't involve counterattacking, making the statement objectively and demonstrably false in regards to Link from the get-go, to begin with.

Not to mention, that statement isn't even saying what you're implying it does, it's saying it has high counterattack potential, which yeah of course it does, not that it's only a counterattack move, just that statue blitzing your foe is a pretty solid method of retaliation.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Not to mention, that statement isn't even saying what you're implying it does, it's saying it has high counterattack potential, which yeah of course it does, not that it's only a counterattack move, just that statue blitzing your foe is a pretty solid method of retaliation.

It's not even saying that the technique has high counterattack potential. it's talking about the royal broadsword itself being good at counter attacks.

 

[TheGatememer]

Not a statement talking about Link so moot point.

It's the same ability, so no.

Also ignores the fact flurry can and will activate in multiple instances that don't involve counterattacking, making the statement objectively and demonstrably false in regards to Link from the get-go, to begin with.

I'm talking specifically about Flurry Rush/Perfect Dodging, not Bullet Time or Perfect Guarding. And no, Flurry Rush/Perfect Dodging has not been shown to activate outside of dodging.

Not to mention, that statement isn't even saying what you're implying it does, it's saying it has high counterattack potential, which yeah of course it does, not that it's only a counterattack move, just that statue blitzing your foe is a pretty solid method of retaliation.

Uh no? It's specifically referring to the Royal Broadsword's ability to have increased damage when Flurry Rushing.

Don't know what part of "Its counterattack power when dodging an enemy attack is potent", and "Crafted for sword masters, it increases the power of flurry rush during perfect dodge." is referring to the deadliness of it's "retaliation method", as opposed to it's power when Flurry Rushing.

 

[Chariot190]

It's the same ability, so no.

Not talking about Link so yes? It doesn't matter if someone else uses it differently, Revali and Link both have it, Revali doesn't need to use his to counter.

Goes both ways dude.

I'm talking specifically about Flurry Rush/Perfect Dodging, not Bullet Time or Perfect Guarding. And no, Flurry Rush/Perfect Dodging has not been shown to activate outside of dodging.

Same ability lad. You're talking about a specific use, of a general ability he has. You're actually conflating gameplay, with lore.

Uh no? It's specifically referring to the Royal Broadsword's ability to have increased damage when Flurry Rushing.

Do you not realize that completely invalidates your argument right? It isn't at all talking about perception manip, being a counter-specific thing, but that this specific sword, just so happens to get a power amp, when countering, when doing a flurry.

Either way, your initial statement/argument, that being it's a counter only thing

it’s specifically referred to as a “counterattack” technique, which is consistent with how it works in gameplay

Is objectively false and not what the quote is talking about, only that with this super specific weapon, does it get an amp when retaliating back.

So I stand by what I said. Nothing changes.

Don't know what part of "Its counterattack power when dodging an enemy attack is potent", and "Crafted for sword masters, it increases the power of flurry rush during perfect dodge." is referring to the deadliness of it's "retaliation method", as opposed to its power when Flurry Rushing.

The part where you did not link that, that's on you for doing a poor job citing your argument and scans.
But, it doesn't matter, dude is shown a sword that has buffed atk when Link dodges and initiates a flurry in retaliation, ie, countering.
This does not mean it can't be initiated at any other point, we know it can.

Can perception manip activate in other situations? Yes, so your argument is demonstrably false in that it's a counter-only thing.
Do we know how? Yes, it's done by focus, something not linked to any specific action, as we see given there are multiple methods unrelated to countering that can proc it on the fly.
Should we then limit it to being used only in the specific dodge instance in gameplay? Not really, game balancing is a thing, and the actual lore, corroborating feats and showings, all but say what you're suggesting isn't an actual limitation, especially if you dip into Warriors.
And again, I forget what the verdict on AoC was, but given we use an FTL feat from it, perception manip is even more lenient in that, and we straight up see Ganon in TOTK, someone who also has the ability (Given you wanna cross-scale them), whip out a flurry, mid Link flurry meaning his ass was prepping that shit otherwise he'd have been blitzed, with him and Link able to dodge and attack each other's follow-ups, at least by two steps, all in slow mo, iirc you mentioned earlier that Ganon can't react, but he actually can, if Link attacks him mid-flurry, Ganon himself can react in your flurry, and attack you back.

 

[Carfusso]

After reading the thread and her (sorry, I play smash and there is only 1 correct skin for Byleth there) profile to learn what Byleth's about...this kind of feels like the Link show.

Even disregarding the one thing I disagree with in his profile (Link's "focusing" being a speed boost as well, he can do that whenever he wants but that's only boosting his reflexes by that amount...the whole "moving 100x faster" thing however, screams of game mechanics to me...after all, a flurry of attacks is an objectively cooler visualization than what actually happens, i.e. Link using his supercharged reflexes to instantly find an opening no one else can see and strike from there, or to aim his bow immediatly as he draws it for the same reason) Link is just too much for Byleth to deal with:

He has 5 (or 4, Idk if Mineru is included in the midgame) literally invincible spirits that are comparable to him with potentially useful abilities helping him and I don't understand why most arguments seem to ignore them. (Random question, do they stay comparable to him in the endgame? I hope so but I havn't checked)

He has elemental attacks that Byleth doesn't seem to resist (at least going by this thread), that can be either attached to his weapons, AoE or homing making them hard to dodge and BRUTAL when they hit. (electricity makes her drop stuff and ice is.... well it's ice in a videogame, with boosted dmg if followed by an electrical attack)

He has the funny "lol, bye" ancient arrows and blades that also seem to counter Byleth's "maybe resurrections x10".

He has ultrahand constructs that (while not the Metal Gears you can build in game) still help with mobility, defence and offence, or can even serve as distractions if worst comes to worst.

He has higher AP (both upscale but Link starts from a higher value) and LS (which invalidates some of Byleth's "keep you in the air" tricks) , and that always helps.

He has a time stop that (unlike hers) allows him to actually do something other than "the big think" (namely stopping any phisical projectile Byleth throws at him by recalling then dropping them) while it's on...and both of them have genius intelligence so they both benefit equally.

He has the ability to "reset" and fk off back to Hyrule (or 1 of 3 teleport bases he will put in the arena if you hate fun) at any point when a situaltion might become vaguely unconfortable for him and then come back to 1 of 3 teleport bases he will put in the arena.

He has resistance to some of Byleth's nastiest hax via his resitance to gloom while his armors can provide multple other resistances and buffs that he can pick and choose as seen in the previous point...of note is the capitalism armor that protects from dmg as long as he has money.

He has 0 fks to give about an ability that makes 17 out of his 100 arrows/strikes miss...he'll just throw more, and said fks go into the negative immaginary numbers when talking about the mighty apple stealing ability.

He has the ability to disarm Byleth with electricty then steal her stuff with Fuse.

Finally (I'm missing a lot of points like smoke/mind manip. but this is already too long) the skill-issue bit is...just incorrect. Even assuming the unlikely scenario that all the "skill stomps" mentioned in FE aren't just based on AP, a significantly less experienced, unequipped and reckless to a fault BotW Link was good enough to take down armies of monsters (where at least the multiple Lynels he killed were comparable to him) and sustain very minimal injuries with just a stick a sword while his main focus was protecting Zelda...it took an army of ancient, LASER-shooting death machines (arguably all of which were stronger than him) designed to fight the ultimate evil (at the time) jumping him to defeat him...and they still suffered large casualties. (and again...he only had a sword and his only goal was to protect Zelda, not saying he would have won without her but still...) THIS is the guy who now has access to the wall of BS typed above while being significantly better than he was then and with a funny "I overcharge my reflexes so hard I see you as barely moving" button and an AP advantage...safe to say they're AT LEAST even in CQC.

Yes, I'm voting Link, nothing I've seen indicates she can deal with ALL that nonsense while 1 opening with an ancient arrow/blade is enough to bypass the (max) 10 resurrections she has (6 more than Link but Byleth has no way around it) , not saying this is a stomp but Link does teke it quite decisively unless I'm missing something major

 

[Chariot190]

He has 5 (or 4, Idk if Mineru is included in the midgame) literally invincible spirits that are comparable to him with potentially useful abilities helping him and I don't understand why most arguments seem to ignore them. (Random question, do they stay comparable to him in the endgame? I hope so but I havn't checked)

Mineru is end game.

 

[CrackerVolley]

I mean, that's is true, and teleporting is probably not going to work based on starting location (SBA means they ould be in irl NYC). But that doesn't change most of the arguement.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, that's is true, and teleporting is probably not going to work based on starting location (SBA means they ould be in irl NYC). But that doesn't change most of the arguement.

SBA being NY, is precisely why it would work. Purah Pad has interdim TP range. Bro can go back and forth without issue.

Kinda like Instant Transmission.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Well in that case, it's just self-BFR unless he has the foresight to drop a teleportation medal.

 

[Chariot190]

Well in that case, it's just self-BFR unless he has the foresight to drop a teleportation medal.

I mean, yeah, that's what both me and him said?
Why wouldn't he? He has 3 even.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

(Random question, do they stay comparable to him in the endgame? I hope so but I havn't checked)

Endgame Link is Large Planet level while endgame Sages are Moon level.

 

[Carfusso]

Mineru is end game.

I see, thanks

I mean, that's is true, and teleporting is probably not going to work based on starting location (SBA means they ould be in irl NYC). But that doesn't change most of the arguement.

Well as it's already been said his TP reaches NY and he (being a genius character) is going to plan around his options and plant at least 1 TP spot just for safety

Endgame Link is Large Planet level while endgame Sages are Moon level.

Got it, ty

 

[CrackerVolley]

Bump