Byleth Eisner vs Link (Majora's Mask) (0-7-0) (Concluded)

[Chariot190]

They will be better prepared for anything they witness Link utilizing than they would without the time hax. And since Link apparently does not have Acausality, they will not remember anything when Byleth uses DP but Byleth will remembers when Link uses SoT.

Not how it works. This is like arguing a dude has death hax, so he'd be prepared for death hax.
Just because you have something doesn't mean you expect a foe to have it, let alone know what they can do with it (If anything this works against Byleth as Link and hers do different things), how it behaves, how to work around it and so on.
If anything Byleth wouldn't expect it because why would they? Out of the thousands of enemies they've fought, how many have rolled up with time manip? If anything they'll be taken off guard that someone finally has it.
and several of Link's items have acausality

Byleth has auto Resurrection, albeit limited, allowing Byleth to survive from them

And then Link does it again because he has literally 20 of them.

If Link is hit by them, he will not be able to do anything in retaliations. I suppose as a mean of retaliation, Byleth can access Fallen Star, which basically allows Byleth to avoid any attack. Although I just realized that Link does not have Deku Nuts in his Standard Equipment, so I am not sure if he has them in this fight

If Link is hit by them, but why would he? He's twice as fast, more skilled, has the ability to dos hit like read minds so he knows what's coming, etc.
Link has so many easy ways to just flat out bypass Byleth's counters in the first place, Stone Mask is free.

The Zora’s barrier is the one with the magical electricity, correct? Well, Byleth has access to ranged weaponry, which includes fire that Zora are weak to, so they be fine

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact it removes Byleth's CQC options entirely, though it is a barrier, ranged attacks still kinda have to get past it.

I’m assuming the ranged attacks part come from Link’s arrows, which is far if they hit Byleth, though this gives Byleth the chance to retaliate with Chalice of Beginning to attack Link with a lightning bolt from any distance.

Link can survive a lightning bolt, Byleth can't survive being frozen solid and shattered into itty bits.

So both has their own healing items and auto resurrection, although Byleth has more variety. Although, it should be highly noted that it is not mention in Link’s Standard Equipment they possess healing items such as their potions and fairies, so I am not sure if Link has them in this fight.

If he has bottles, I don't see why they'd be empty.
Speaking of, bottles have sealing, that's another thing he has going for him.

I know that a chateau romani is a certain type of milk iirc but I don’t see it anywhere on the profile (neither P&A or Standard Equipment), so I assume Link does not have it in this fight.

I hope your arguments don't amount to "well it's not listed in the profile so...", half of Link's canonical standard equipment he can't beat the game without isn't even in his standard equipment, it reads almost as if someone was just going off memory on what he had and called it a day.
You obviously know it's a thing he has, that should be good enough until a CRT is made when people have time, I plan on doing a MM CRT, but got a few other things to deal with first.
If you're really gonna argue this, just imagine Link whips out the song of soaring to go grab some then, none of these items are hard to get.

How effective is this mask when in actual combat, I remember long time ago it was only used for animal and gossip stones. Is it possible to use it to read a human’s mind.

It's stated to be able to read minds and see into people's hearts, even in Majora's Mask itself, it isn't really reflected in the gameplay, but it be like it do. Lorewise it just lets him hear the thoughts of others, which is how he's talking to the gossip stones and animals in the first place.

Does the Song of Healing calm and pacify aggressive enemies? I though it was only used for any troubled souls or spirit and evil magic

It definitely has a general calming effect, how much so is up for debate.

Stone Mask sounds busted. Though Byleth has ES which allows them to block a surprise attack they didn’t expect.

They could do that, but it wouldn't help as they still wouldn't register it, Link can straight up murder an enemy while wearing this mask and they won't even retaliate while he does it.

ToC is the Triforce of Courage, correct? I know it protect Link from Magic, but on the profile, it stated that it is evil magic and I don’t think Byleth’s magic can be categorized as evil (at least in the context of the Zelda verse) and they are not curses. Half of their magic spells are holy/light based while the other are elementals.

We went through this last Link match, every single statement in the ToC just says magic in general, magical effects. It's predominately used against evil magic, but that's just the profile conflating it mostly being used against dark magic to mean it's only good against dark magic, when that was never what was actually said, to be exact, it protects against curses and magical effects that would affect Link, for example, it wouldn't nullify a magic bolt of lightning, but it would nullify any magical effects that affect Link from it like parahax or what not.
A lot of out Link profiles are kind of outdated, the only Zelda profile I'd say covers most things properly is Ganon's

Regardless, Link just drops some deku nuts, stone mask, whatever, and proceeds to just kill Byleth. Ice arrows, sword through the skull, Giant Mask, so on and so forth. Byleth might have healing or means to get around some of that, but it's all highly limited, has limits to what they can heal and so on. Link is also more than skilled enough to contend with whatever Byleth is putting out between having the time amp that makes him effectively 2x Byleth's combat speed innately, and experience fighting those who kinda outskill Byleth.

How much of a radius do Deku Nuts have again? It’s been a while since I’ve played OoT.

Pretty sure it's basically screenwide.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Its gonna be totally null though. Byleth's rewinds are useless in this fight since Link is not only capable of moving back much further, but can do so without limit, unlike Byleth

If Link rewinds things to a point before Byleth uses their DP, their DP usage will most likely be restored. And since Byleth has Acausality, he will still retain his memories and know that in order to rewind time, Link has to use the Ocarina and play a song.

Yes, but given how many wincons Link has, I believe that'd only delay the inevitable. Either way, their healing items against Link aren't going to do much in the long run. Link has resurrections too anyways

I don't really care about wincons as I don't care who wins, I am just arguing it won't be as easy a fight and addressing some points. As I mention before, I don't see fairies in Link's Standard Equipment, so I am not sure if he has them

Is there any evidence he wouldn't be able to absolutely do anything in retaliation? As far as I've seen, he can still act. He won't be made a sitting duck. As for the Deku Nuts, that's really only an oversight in terms of it not being on his page. Yes, he has them

That is what those moves do. He attacks them and the opponent is unable to retaliate in return, essentially a free hit in Three Houses.

Then someone should make a CRT and clean up the page. I can only use what is on the profile and the current profile is saying he doesn't have them as SE.

Zoras are weak to fire. Zora barriers? Not the same

Indeed. I just say Fire is a Zora's weakness, I never say about the barrier being weak to it

Arrows, bombs, Hookshot, and Deku Nuts. I should note that most of these aren't going to let Byleth retaliate well since they'd only get hurt or stunned. The Fairy Sword's also got a pretty good ranged given its a melee weapon

That only if they get hit.

The Sword of the Creator is essentially a whip sword, giving Byleth a good range to attack from. And that is not taking into account his other weapons.

Its the Powers and Abilities section, yes, Link has his healing items. Byleth has more variety, but most of their techniques aren't going to be effective if Link's attacks are going to be more than they can recover from

I know there are in the P&A, I'm saying that they aren't in Link's Standard Equipment, which means according to the profile, he doesn't normally have the, at hand at all times.

Besides the lethal attacks, anything else will be reduced by half of their strength and can essentially restored about half their HP with a pretty much spammable Combat Art

Milk actually is brought up in the Powers and Abilities section

Ah I just saw... I am assuming you are referring to these.

Limited Animal Manipulation (Cause cows to produce milk when they play Epona's song)

Curse Manipulation (If he drinks milk the bubbles curse will no longer affect him)

Doesn't specifically say chateau romani in particular though, then again milk isn't mentioned in SE, nor Link can readily get them besides using his Animal Manipulation on Romani Ranch's specially-bred Cows

Its said that the Mask can read the minds of Hylians, so I can't see why it wouldn't work on a human

I swear, I look through some Zelda wiki and didn't see a mention of it reading Hylians' mind, just the things I mentioned above. Where is this information if I can ask

The Song of Healing worked on innocent and malicious individuals alike. Given it can also work on those who still have a physical body, there's no reason it shouldn't work on Byleth

Really? Just working from the description of the Song on the profile. Is there a scene of this if you don't mind me asking

Link has the skill advantage as well as stealth mastery. Byleth likely wouldn't be able to block his attacks as easily as they would with a regular surprise attack. Especially with ranged attacks

Why is that the case? Unless Link has feats of negating people with Enhanced Senses, they should be able to sense a surprise attack coming.

Not how it works. This is like arguing a dude has death hax, so he'd be prepared for death hax.
Just because you have something doesn't mean you expect a foe to have it, let alone know what they can do with it (If anything this works against Byleth as Link and hers do different things), how it behaves, how to work around it and so on.
If anything Byleth wouldn't expect it because why would they? Out of the thousands of enemies they've fought, how many have rolled up with time manip? If anything they'll be taken off guard that someone finally has it.
and several of Link's items have acausality

I feel like you are misinterpreting something or another but regardless, my point will continue to stand with Byleth's Divine Pulse.

Are you saying out of the many enemies Link has fought, he fought many with thought-based time reversal? Byleth will be caught off guard indeed that someone else can manipulate the flow of time, but he will adapt and notice Link having to take out his ocarina and play a song

Apparently not this Link according to profile

And then Link does it again because he has literally 20 of them.

And then Byleth adapts, he has many options to go long ranges. But that beside the point that Link does not have them in his Standard Equipment, meaning he does not have them at hand.

If Link is hit by them, but why would he? He's twice as fast, more skilled, has the ability to dos hit like read minds so he knows what's coming, etc.
Link has so many easy ways to just flat out bypass Byleth's counters in the first place, Stone Mask is free.

Only if Link plays his song, if Link get Byleth to Vantage range, then it doesn't matter how fast he is, Byleth will always attack first. Indeed, he can read minds, but I will again, how good is it in actual-live combat. Can I see a video of Link using it in combat against an enemy.

I believe I mention how I feel about Byleth's chance with the Stone Mask

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact it removes Byleth's CQC options entirely, though it is a barrier, ranged attacks still kinda have to get past it.

Indeed, but that if Link is willing to constantly utilizes this shield, which costs magic iirc and he will run out sooner or later

Link can survive a lightning bolt, Byleth can't survive being frozen solid and shattered into itty bits.

I see, as in for heat resistance? Cause I will say that is not on the profile, but it doesn't matter as this lightning bolt has the properties of whatever weapon/magic Byleth has equipped. So, if he has a sword, it will be physical damage, if he has fire magic, it will do fire magic, etc...., it just happens the attack takes the form of a lightning bolt

If he has bottles, I don't see why they'd be empty.
Speaking of, bottles have sealing, that's another thing he has going for him.

Why are you asking me? I don't know why. just going according to the profile. Although it is up to the player whether Link has them filled with something, not that Link canonically has them fill with potions, fairies, etc..... At that point, it will be Optional Equipment, not SE

Can Link do that do any enemies, besides min-bosses and bosses of course. This seems like a one-time thing, and the bottle was a tight fit for the princess, almost like the Princess squeeze herself in it, and Byleth is much larger than her.

I hope your arguments don't amount to "well it's not listed in the profile so...", half of Link's canonical standard equipment he can't beat the game without isn't even in his standard equipment, it reads almost as if someone was just going off memory on what he had and called it a day.
You obviously know it's a thing he has, that should be good enough until a CRT is made when people have time, I plan on doing a MM CRT, but got a few other things to deal with first.
If you're really gonna argue this, just imagine Link whips out the song of soaring to go grab some then, none of these items are hard to get.

It has been years since I play MM. I do not know what Link has or what he is capable of. I didn't even know that milk was a thing before this match and had to look it up on the Zelda wiki before the profile didn't say anything about it. That is why we have a profile for people like me. I thought we have to use the profile when in a match on VS forums, otherwise what is their purpose. It is not my fault the profile has been here for years (since 2015), and nobody realize half of Link's canonical standard equipment isn't mentioned, a huge oversight but that is on the Zelda's supporters, not me. They could use this chance to add references as well to the profile. I had always assumed Dust would eventually clean it up like he did with a Link's profile, Ganondorf and Ghirahim.

I could easily argue that Byleth avoids the Deku Nuts as they constantly teleport around the battlefield, time stop Link in place and behead him before calling it a day. Even say that the 13 usages of DP don't exist anymore and Byleth can freely use it how many times they want. But I can't because the profile doesn't reflect it.

So, with the Song of Soaring, Link will... BFR himself to an owl statue, which doesn't exist in New York, or the real world, and only in his world, and try to hurry and find his way back to the battlefield despite the task of returning from an entirely different world

It's stated to be able to read minds and see into people's hearts, even in Majora's Mask itself, it isn't really reflected in the gameplay, but it be like it do. Lorewise it just lets him hear the thoughts of others, which is how he's talking to the gossip stones and animals in the first place.

Sadge indeed when gameplay and lore does not match

It definitely has a general calming effect, how much so is up for debate.

I see, then I can't really say much on this

They could do that, but it wouldn't help as they still wouldn't register it, Link can straight up murder an enemy while wearing this mask and they won't even retaliate while he does it.

I guess

We went through this last Link match, every single statement in the ToC just says magic in general, magical effects. It's predominately used against evil magic, but that's just the profile conflating it mostly being used against dark magic to mean it's only good against dark magic, when that was never what was actually said, to be exact, it protects against curses and magical effects that would affect Link, for example, it wouldn't nullify a magic bolt of lightning, but it would nullify any magical effects that affect Link from it like parahax or what not.
A lot of out Link profiles are kind of outdated, the only Zelda profile I'd say covers most things properly is Ganon's

Really? Even the Triforce page itself doesn't mention ToC having a resistance to magic. Again, not my fault nobody wants to update the profile.

I believe Ghirahim is also properly updated

Regardless, Link just drops some deku nuts, stone mask, whatever, and proceeds to just kill Byleth. Ice arrows, sword through the skull, Giant Mask, so on and so forth. Byleth might have healing or means to get around some of that, but it's all highly limited, has limits to what they can heal and so on. Link is also more than skilled enough to contend with whatever Byleth is putting out between having the time amp that makes him effectively 2x Byleth's combat speed innately, and experience fighting those who kinda outskill Byleth.

I don't know about that part about Link facing enemies that kinda outskill, can't recall any opponents like that. But regardless, that is all I have to say. Whether the bluenette or blond wins, I don't care, just that this will be a tough battle

 

[TheGatememer]

AP / Durability​

Byleth's AP is technically 818 Gigatons, since he upscales from the Immaculate One who survived two JoLs simultameously. This is yet again something I want to change but am too lazy to get off my ass to do it. Byleth also scales to Sothis, who survived a bombardment of them in the past.

The scaling chain is something like: 2 Javelins of Light = 818 Gigatons = Weakened Immaculate One < Prime Immaculate One/1st Form Immaculate One < 2nd Form Immaculate One < 3rd Form Immaculate One < Byleth

This is without considering his passive AP amps, empowerment, damage boost, and critical hits, which can triple his damage output, and Storm Dragon Crest Sign, which can double his damage on top of that.

Byleth's Heroes Relics can also halve the damage he recieves.

I know that Link also upscales from his AP, so take of this what you will.

Speed​

Speed is equal, but there is some stuff to be noted. Byleth has some minor passive amps to his speed. Byleth does have Brave Weapons, which grants him higher attack speed, and the Water Dragon Sign, which does the same. The Fetters of Dromi also significantly increase Byleth's movement speed.

But the real thing I want to bring up is Astra, which is a technique that allows Byleth to move FTE relative to his opponent, all while landing dozens, if not hundreds of attacks at once.

There is also Vantage, which allows Byleth to counterattack before Link can attack if he is injured.

Range​

Since this is SBA, they will start 4 kilometers away, with some of Link's longest range weapons having that much range. Link won't be able to snipe Byleth from afar though, since Byleth can counterattack from any range.

Skill​

Gonna be responding to this:

Stopping a conflict in a short amount of time after coming back? Link pretty much did that except much faster and single handily in OoT. Dominating somebody who can take on over a hundred trained students? Link cleaned through a fortress that hundreds of trained soldiers working together were said to be incapable of performing.

At least a third of those students have been trained to fight since before they could write their own name. Those students also include people such as Sylvain and Dimitri, who are capable of putting down armies by themselves. In Dimitri's case, he completely shut down a rebellion that is comprised of soldiers who have been trained to fight since childhood at just 15 years old.

All those students combined were completely dominated by an early-game Shez, who themselves were completely dominated by Byleth 6 months before the events of the game even took place.

Dominating somebody who has mastered several techniques? Yeah, Link’s done that a lot too and whenever he masters weaponry or techniques himself, it’s on the spot.

Shez was able to master a bunch of different techniques to form his own unique style of combat that even people such as Felix struggle to keep up with. Felix is also much more skilled than Sylvain, and is basically Dimitri's rival, whom I've already covered.

When Shez first awakened to his power/picked up a new fighting style and weapon, he was instantly able to master it, with Byleth even noting that Shez was fighting like a completely different person, but that still didn't stop Byleth from curbstomping Shez, which again, happened 6 months before the beginning of the game. I don't really need to explain why an Endgame Byleth far surpasses that.

Surpassing somebody with 300 years of combat experience? Link’s defeated Twinrova, an over 400 year old being who lead the Gerudo Tribe.

Byleth has also defeated characters with thousands of years of experience, such as Thales and Rhea.

Overall or something​

I doubt most of Link's options will be too much for Byleth to keep up with. The issue with most of Link's attacks, at least the ones that can pose a real threat to Byleth, is that they require Byleth to be close by or take too much time to pull off, which won't be effective against a distance demon such as Byleth.

Ice Arrows just won't work, since Byleth can resist ice magic via Sothis Shield, and can break out from being frozen.

Deku Nuts only seem to have a range of a few meters, so Byleth could just stay out of range, or just dodge. Byleth has blocked/dodged attacks he had no way of knowing were coming, like sneak attacks, and teleport spammers. He also has plenty of experience dodging Danmaku, and AoE attacks on a regular basis. While this hasn't been added to the profiles yet, the Rafail Gem, which Byleth has in this key, grants immunity to status effects, which includes freezing, and paralysis.

Similar to the Deku Nuts, Byleth won't have to worry about getting sealed via the Bottle if he just stays out of range. He could probably also just break out of the bottle, or create a portal to escape.

The Stone Mask could be an issue, but it seems to only affect Byleth being able to see Link. Byleth can still hear Link, and considering how loud Link is in combat, even if he can't see Link, he should have a general idea on where Link is, especially due to his enhances senses, which I covered previously.

I kinda doubt Link's songs will be very effective, since they take too much time to pull off, which is enough time for Byleth to just knock it out of his hand, or break the Ocarina with his whip sword. Link using the Song of Time is also kind of a double-edged sword, since it will also recharge all of Byleth's Divine Pulse charges, assuming he used any.

Speaking of Divine Pulse, I'd argue that it is much more effective than Link's Song of Time. While Link can play the Song of Time an unlimited number of times, it simply takes too much time to pull off. Meanwhile, Divine Pulse is thought-based (passive upon death), and can be used to rewind time 13 times, or freeze time any number of times. He'd also be able to utilize it's effects much more effectively, since he has Type 1 Acausality, while Link doesn't, meaning that Byleth will know every move Link is planning to make, which also cancels out Link's advantages with the Mask of Truth.

The real issue Link will have to deal with is Byleth's AoE spam. Byleth can dish out dozens, if not hundreds of attacks both at close range, and at a range, with said attacks appearing in all directions out of thin air. All those attacks are capable of healing Byleth and nullifying Link's actions via the Crest of Flames, or dealing triple damage with crits, or sextuple damage if the Crest of Blaiddyd activates. Link may be able to survive Byleth's attacks for a bit with Fairies, but he doesn't have an unlimited number of them. The only way Link MIGHT be able to deal with Byleth's spam is the Stone Mask, but due to the sheer number of attacks Byleth can dish out at once, even ignoring his enhanced senses, there's a good chance it's just gonna hit Link anyways.

Tl;dr​

Powernulling attack spam go brrrr

 

[Lonkitt]

Skill​

Gonna be responding to this:


At least a third of those students have been trained to fight since before they could write their own name. Those students also include people such as Sylvain and Dimitri, who are capable of putting down armies by themselves. In Dimitri's case, he completely shut down a rebellion that is comprised of soldiers who have been trained to fight since childhood at just 15 years old.

All those students combined were completely dominated by an early-game Shez, who themselves were completely dominated by Byleth 6 months before the events of the game even took place.

Shez was able to master a bunch of different techniques to form his own unique style of combat that even people such as Felix struggle to keep up with. Felix is also much more skilled than Sylvain, and is basically Dimitri's rival, whom I've already covered.

When Shez first awakened to his power/picked up a new fighting style and weapon, he was instantly able to master it, with Byleth even noting that Shez was fighting like a completely different person, but that still didn't stop Byleth from curbstomping Shez, which again, happened 6 months before the beginning of the game. I don't really need to explain why an Endgame Byleth far surpasses that.

Byleth has also defeated characters with thousands of years of experience, such as Thales and Rhea.

Okay, a few problems with this

A) Yes, lots of those students have had some very noteworthy training and can take on a good deal of enemies themselves. But even low level lackeys for Igos du Ikana were noted as being the best swordsmen in their valley. Yet the combined effort of hundreds of those men (implying 200-300 bare minimum) were made out to be inferior to Link's skill as shown in Majora's Mask. That seems to be a far more potent force compared to over a 100 trained students, a third of which are more skilled than others. That feat alone really makes stuff like Dimitri or Felix's feats a lot less impressive. Remember, Link as a child in OoT, with no training beforehand, could accomplish what others with far greater experience couldn't.

B) Shez's mastery of a new technique after awakening his power is impressive, but now on the level of mastery as Link. The context of that feat is different and given the situation, it has much more to do with his own abilities. Link is picking up unique equipment that has not connection whatsoever to him and mastering them without any training beforehand, and going on to stomp opponents who have gone through similar experiences as 3H characters. So while Byleth counter Shez's awakening of a new style, it isn't on the same level as Link's ability to adapt.

C) Even with post-timeskip Byleth turning the tides of war, the time it took for them to put said war to an end was still far longer than it did for Link to defeat Ganondorf in the future. And its not like any time Link went back, he was nerfing Ganondorf's efficiency or military power. Hyrule pretty much lost and Link just reversed those odds on his own.

Deku Nuts only seem to have a range of a few meters, so Byleth could just stay out of range, or just dodge. Byleth has blocked/dodged attacks he had no way of knowing were coming, like sneak attacks, and teleport spammers. He also has plenty of experience dodging Danmaku, and AoE attacks on a regular basis. While this hasn't been added to the profiles yet, the Rafail Gem, which Byleth has in this key, grants immunity to status effects, which includes freezing, and paralysis.

Similar to the Deku Nuts, Byleth won't have to worry about getting sealed via the Bottle if he just stays out of range. He could probably also just break out of the bottle, or create a portal to escape.

I don't thinking dodging Deku Nuts is going to be that easy if Byleth is within the range to use them. And regarding the bottle, there's certainly no way Byleth would ever suspect "this bottle is going to trap me". The bottle and the Deku Nuts could very well catch Byleth off-guard. The portal part is true, but I doubt this is a normal bottle that Byleth could shatter instantly with shear force if it can d what it does in the games. I also don't recall any of Byleth's immunities involving paralysis. Thats not to mention the flash of light

Speaking of Divine Pulse, I'd argue that it is much more effective than Link's Song of Time. While Link can play the Song of Time an unlimited number of times, it simply takes too much time to pull off. Meanwhile, Divine Pulse is thought-based (passive upon death), and can be used to rewind time 13 times, or freeze time any number of times. He'd also be able to utilize it's effects much more effectively, since he has Type 1 Acausality, while Link doesn't, meaning that Byleth will know every move Link is planning to make, which also cancels out Link's advantages with the Mask of Truth.

There's a problem though. Link will still be able to read their mind. Even if Byleth does use time rewinds to their advantage, they will not know that Link can read their mind. So if Byleth's thoughts reflect knowledge of how Link will attack and how they learned it through the Divine Pulse, Link's gonna know and the advantage would be null. And its not as though Byleth will think "he's going to read my mind".

The real issue Link will have to deal with is Byleth's AoE spam. Byleth can dish out dozens, if not hundreds of attacks both at close range, and at a range, with said attacks appearing in all directions out of thin air. All those attacks are capable of healing Byleth and nullifying Link's actions via the Crest of Flames, or dealing triple damage with crits, or sextuple damage if the Crest of Blaiddyd activates. Link may be able to survive Byleth's attacks for a bit with Fairies, but he doesn't have an unlimited number of them. The only way Link MIGHT be able to deal with Byleth's spam is the Stone Mask, but due to the sheer number of attacks Byleth can dish out at once, even ignoring his enhanced senses, there's a good chance it's just gonna hit Link anyways.

We also went over why Byleth's nulling wouldn't work above. That isn't a wincon for Byleth, even if it hits

Given Link's displays of skill and adaptability? He would have a good chance to avoid these in combination with the Giant's Mask. In that stat, all of his stats would be far higher and what was once bullet hell becomes a far more avoidable string of projectiles

 

[TheGatememer]

Okay, a few problems with this

A) Yes, lots of those students have had some very noteworthy training and can take on a good deal of enemies themselves. But even low level lackeys for Igos du Ikana were noted as being the best swordsmen in their valley.

That doesn't really tell me anything about their skill nor their experience.

Yet the combined effort of hundreds of those men (implying 200-300 bare minimum) were made out to be inferior to Link's skill as shown in Majora's Mask. That seems to be a far more potent force compared to over a 100 trained students, a third of which are more skilled than others. That feat alone really makes stuff like Dimitri or Felix's feats a lot less impressive. Remember, Link as a child in OoT, with no training beforehand, could accomplish what others with far greater experience couldn't.

I say 100 students as a lowball. In reality, there are definitely a lot more than that as seen in this room alone. This isn't a skill debate between Dimitri vs Link or Felix vs Link. This is a skill debate between someone who before the beginning of the game curbstomped someone who could take on the combined forces of Dimitri, Felix, several more students who are easily as skilled as them, + a ton of students who have been trained since childhood vs Link.

B) Shez's mastery of a new technique after awakening his power is impressive, but now on the level of mastery as Link. The context of that feat is different and given the situation, it has much more to do with his own abilities.

Shez was just granted more strength + a new weapon, there isn't really a reason to assume Shez became more skilled because of that.

Link is picking up unique equipment that has not connection whatsoever to him and mastering them without any training beforehand,

Shez previously had no connection to the Asura blade either. Hell, he had absolutely no idea what was going and basically just decided to fight on the fly with his new powers and weapon.

and going on to stomp opponents who have gone through similar experiences as 3H characters. So while Byleth counter Shez's awakening of a new style, it isn't on the same level as Link's ability to adapt.

The best feat you've listed thus far is Link being > hundreds of skilled soldiers. A beginning of game Base Byleth stomped someone who stomped a group of hundreds of students, with several of those students being skilled enough to take on armies comprised of soldiers trained since childhood on their own.

C) Even with post-timeskip Byleth turning the tides of war, the time it took for them to put said war to an end was still far longer than it did for Link to defeat Ganondorf in the future. And its not like any time Link went back, he was nerfing Ganondorf's efficiency or military power. Hyrule pretty much lost and Link just reversed those odds on his own.

I think being above hundreds of soldiers is a better skill feat overall, and I compared their feats above.

I don't thinking dodging Deku Nuts is going to be that easy if Byleth is within the range to use them.

I don't see why it wouldn't due to his ES, and items that increases his avoidance rate. Worst case scenario, Byleth uses Divine Pulse, and will know to keep his distance. Unless of course, we factor in his status effect immunity via the Rafail Gem, in which case, it just wouldn't work on Byleth.

And regarding the bottle, there's certainly no way Byleth would ever suspect "this bottle is going to trap me". The bottle and the Deku Nuts could very well catch Byleth off-guard.

If Link gets either one of those off, Byleth will know to keep his distance.

The portal part is true, but I doubt this is a normal bottle that Byleth could shatter instantly with shear force if it can d what it does in the games.

Has the bottle ever trapped enemies on par with Link?

I also don't recall any of Byleth's immunities involving paralysis. Thats not to mention the flash of light

In Three Hopes, the Rafail Gem grants immunity to all status effects, which includes being paralyzed.

There's a problem though. Link will still be able to read their mind. Even if Byleth does use time rewinds to their advantage, they will not know that Link can read their mind. So if Byleth's thoughts reflect knowledge of how Link will attack and how they learned it through the Divine Pulse, Link's gonna know and the advantage would be null. And its not as though Byleth will think "he's going to read my mind".

It's why I explained that Link's advantages with the Mask of Truth are going to be cancelled out, since both will know what moves they are going to make. At least, while Link is wearing the Mask of Truth. I doubt he's going to be wearing it the entire time.

We also went over why Byleth's nulling wouldn't work above. That isn't a wincon for Byleth, even if it hits

I don't see any refutes aside from "it wouldn't work on Link", unless I missed something. Link doesn't resist power null, so he will be unable to attack Byleth back if his attacks land. Either way, Link is going to have to be dealing with a **** ton of attacks appearing out of nowhere, each having a chance of dealing triple damage against an opponent who debatably holds an AP advantage.

Given Link's displays of skill and adaptability? He would have a good chance to avoid these in combination with the Giant's Mask. In that stat, all of his stats would be far higher and what was once bullet hell becomes a far more avoidable string of projectiles

The Giant's Mask, iirc, just makes him stronger, albeit a much bigger target, which just makes it easier for Byleth to land hits. Byleth has more than enough range with the SotC to be able to do what he was doing before. In fact, I dare say it would be a detriment to Link, since in addition to being a bigger target, he doesn't seem to use any of his equipment while in his Giant state.

 

[Chariot190]

If Link rewinds things to a point before Byleth uses their DP, their DP usage will most likely be restored. And since Byleth has Acausality, he will still retain his memories and know that in order to rewind time, Link has to use the Ocarina and play a song.

If Link rewinds time to such a large degree, you realize he's basically giving himself prep right? And the ability to straight up assassinate Byleth.

I feel like you are misinterpreting something or another but regardless, my point will continue to stand with Byleth's Divine Pulse. Are you saying out of the many enemies Link has fought, he fought many with thought-based time reversal? Byleth will be caught off guard indeed that someone else can manipulate the flow of time, but he will adapt and notice Link having to take out his ocarina and play a song

I'm not saying anything like that. Link wouldn't expect Byleth to have that, why the **** would he? It's a stupid argument.
But he'd be able to learn about it and work around it with a few of his abilities, but it's not something he'd learn about right away.
My dude, if Link ends up playing the song of time at any point, he already would have won, the amount of time he gets when he plays it even once is enough to give himself prep basically. There is no "workaround".
>Apparently not this Link according to profile
Profile is massively out of date.

And then Byleth adapts, he has many options to go long ranges. But that beside the point that Link does not have them in his Standard Equipment, meaning he does not have them at hand.

No, Byleth would be dead, there isn't any adapting to be had. And they can't adapt to begin with because tehy don't actually have any method to resist it or avoid it, it's a screen wide parahax that lasts for nearly ten seconds.
He has them, it's literally one of the first items he gets.

Only if Link plays his song,

Only IF? This is basically Link's most consistent in-character move, it may as well be the first thing he does, every time, without fail.

if Link get Byleth to Vantage range, then it doesn't matter how fast he is, Byleth will always attack first.

Why would Byleth get into Vantage range? Ice arrows one shot. A sword through the skull one shots. Light arrows probably one shot. So on and so forth.

Indeed, he can read minds, but I will again, how good is it in actual-live combat. Can I see a video of Link using it in combat against an enemy.

No because that isn't how it's implemented into the game? You know this, don't ask for the impossible.
How it works in live-combat? He just puts the mask on and can hear people's thoughts, it's literally just that simple.

Indeed, but that if Link is willing to constantly utilizes this shield, which costs magic iirc and he will run out sooner or later

Chateau.

I see, as in for heat resistance? Cause I will say that is not on the profile, but it doesn't matter as this lightning bolt has the properties of whatever weapon/magic Byleth has equipped. So, if he has a sword, it will be physical damage, if he has fire magic, it will do fire magic, etc...., it just happens the attack takes the form of a lightning bolt

Link outstats Byleth, it doesn't matter what form it takes as unless it can oneshot Byleth themselves, it ain't one shotting Link and thus may as well be useless.
Link has taken attacks comparable to lightning before, but if we're talking heat, even people irl can survive lightning's heat, the attack happens so fast that it doesn't really give enough time for the heat to do anything.

Why are you asking me? I don't know why. just going according to the profile. Although it is up to the player whether Link has them filled with something, not that Link canonically has them fill with potions, fairies, etc..... At that point, it will be Optional Equipment, not SE

Actually, Link canonically must have a potion at various points in the game, and he's even give some by various characters. Some of his bottles even come with such potions and what not upon obtaining the bottles. It isn't like every bottle he gets is an empty one.

Can Link do that do any enemies, besides min-bosses and bosses of course. This seems like a one-time thing, and the bottle was a tight fit for the princess, almost like the Princess squeeze herself in it, and Byleth is much larger than her.

Yeah? The obvious one being Big Poes. Those things are huge, yet Link can stuff it into a bottle.
And are you really arguing against what the profile says despite having half your arguments be the profile doesn't reflect something properly?

It has been years since I play MM. I do not know what Link has or what he is capable of. I didn't even know that milk was a thing before this match and had to look it up on the Zelda wiki before the profile didn't say anything about it. That is why we have a profile for people like me. I thought we have to use the profile when in a match on VS forums, otherwise what is their purpose. It is not my fault the profile has been here for years (since 2015), and nobody realize half of Link's canonical standard equipment isn't mentioned, a huge oversight but that is on the Zelda's supporters, not me.

You're right, profile kinda ass, but Dust has actually been going through them and sprucing them up, and yeah we usually do stick to profiles, but just about everyone knows a few of the Link profiles, not even just MM, is kinda missing a lot of obvious shit
Neutering what Link has and pretending he just doesn't have even some of his most basic items because people just forgot to post them doesn't sit well with me, it'd be like ignoring Goku could fly if his profile forgot to list it tbh.

They could use this chance to add references as well to the profile. I had always assumed Dust would eventually clean it up like he did with a Link's profile, Ganondorf and Ghirahim.

They is me btw, Dust is going through ALTTP and Skyward atm I think? Me, I felt like playing Majora like last month so I went through and gathered refs and missing abilities and stuff while I was at it for him and Majora.
in which case Im not even mentioning some of his more esoteric and obscure abilities the profile fails to mention, just the obvious shit most people know he has

I could easily argue that Byleth avoids the Deku Nuts as they constantly teleport around the battlefield, time stop Link in place and behead him before calling it a day. Even say that the 13 usages of DP don't exist anymore and Byleth can freely use it how many times they want. But I can't because the profile doesn't reflect it.

You could as long as it's straightforward and not some obscure hidden fact, tbh I don't quite care, profiles are there as a guideline, but I don't think people will fault you for saying the obvious. Though I'm going to say no, teleporting isn't gonna help with Deku Nuts, just dont use them in the literal infinitesimal instant they dont exist within the vicinity

So, with the Song of Soaring, Link will... BFR himself to an owl statue, which doesn't exist in New York, or the real world, and only in his world, and try to hurry and find his way back to the battlefield despite the task of returning from an entirely different world

Then he just plays the song of time shrug

Really? Even the Triforce page itself doesn't mention ToC having a resistance to magic. Again, not my fault nobody wants to update the profile.

I believe Ghirahim is also properly updated

That one's weird because every piece protects against magic. It's like the single shared aspect between all 3.

I don't know about that part about Link facing enemies that kinda outskill, can't recall any opponents like that. But regardless, that is all I have to say. Whether the bluenette or blond wins, I don't care, just that this will be a tough battle

Was thinking about Ganondorf in particular, given this Link fought and experienced the battle with Ganon, besides him, I'd actually say Byleth outskills the majority of Link's foes.

Tbh, even if we ignore the fact the profile is kinda ass, lacks like 15% of Link's equipment he absolutely has deku nuts tho, they're just as standard as arrows and bombs, some of his abilities, resistances, and does a meh job portraying even basic skill, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, the Stone Mask is an instant win button, along with the Giant's Mask, and he has the means to get them out and to know to use them before he gets overwhelmed or defeated himself.

The Giant's Mask, iirc, just makes him stronger, albeit a much bigger target, which just makes it easier for Byleth to land hits. Byleth has more than enough range with the SotC to be able to do what he was doing before. In fact, I dare say it would be a detriment to Link, since in addition to being a bigger target, he doesn't seem to use any of his equipment while in his Giant state.

Giant's Mask is low-key High 6-A, I think we got that accepted? It just hasn't been updated as the second half of the CRT is still in debate.

 

[Chariot190]

Has the bottle ever trapped enemies on par with Link?

Doesn't need to, it's on Byleth to show resistance, not on Link to show arbitrary power limits for a hax ability. And it can store poes who can hurt Link so idk probably. If we went the DBZ power route, literally nothing Byleth has would work because ToC is High 6-A and would just go "no u" to literally everything.

In Three Hopes, the Rafail Gem grants immunity to all status effects, which includes being paralyzed.

Deku Nuts actually work against Ganondorf and is one of the few items in the game that can damage him, Ganon having a fuckton of resistances and passive protection against a bunch of hax, status effects, and more

Link doesn't resist power null,

He might not, but the ToC probably should, and if it does, it, in a roundabout way, would still protect Link

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Deku Nuts actually work against Ganondorf and is one of the few items in the game that can damage him, Ganon having a fuckton of resistances and passive protection against a bunch of hax, status effects, and more

Typical of Ganon or Demise

Mundane objects stomping then, fishing rod--> Ganondorf and bug net---> Demise

 

[TheGatememer]

Giant's Mask is low-key High 6-A, I think we got that accepted? It just hasn't been updated as the second half of the CRT is still in debate.

bruh

Doesn't need to, it's on Byleth to show resistance, not on Link to show arbitrary power limits for a hax ability. And it can store poes who can hurt Link so idk probably. If we went the DBZ power route, literally nothing Byleth has would work because ToC is High 6-A and would just go "no u" to literally everything.

Fair enough on the shattering bottle part. But Byleth could still make a portal to get out, or if need be, use a Divine Pulse charge.

Deku Nuts actually work against Ganondorf and is one of the few items in the game that can damage him, Ganon having a fuckton of resistances and passive protection against a bunch of hax, status effects, and more

I don't think Deku Nuts stun Ganon though, but I could be wrong.

High 6-A Deku Shurb when

He might not, but the ToC probably should, and if it does, it, in a roundabout way, would still protect Link

Eh, I don't see anything in particular that would allow Link to resist powernull.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't think Deku Nuts stun Ganon though, but I could be wrong.

Pretty sure they're one of the few items that can, that and light arrows, which is funny as ****

Eh, I don't see anything in particular that would allow Link to resist powernull.

It's less about it being powernull, and more the mechanics of it, if it's "magical" in nature he should be fine. If it's some other method, then it would probably work. ToC meme stuff only really applies to magical stuff, hasn't shown to negate things that arent.

stone mask is still a free win ngl, that things busted

 

[TheGatememer]

Pretty sure they're one of the few items that can, that and light arrows, which is funny as ****

Doesn't look like they stun Ganon here

It's less about it being powernull, and more the mechanics of it, if it's "magical" in nature he should be fine. If it's some other method, then it would probably work. ToC meme stuff only really applies to magical stuff, hasn't shown to negate things that arent.

Yea it doesn't have anything to do with magic, since Byleth's crest abilities can activate even when his magic is nullified.

stone mask is still a free win ngl, that things busted

Eh, Byleth has really wide coverage with just their normal sword, let alone with the Sword of the Creator, and Byleth can still hear Link, especially with his ES and the fact that Link shouts really loud when fighting. Byleth can just be like "**** everything in that general direction" with a flurry of long range attacks.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't look like they stun Ganon here

Ganon, as in Ganondorf, the floating one.

Eh, Byleth has really wide coverage with just their normal sword, let alone with the Sword of the Creator, and Byleth can still hear Link, especially with his ES and the fact that Link shouts really loud when fighting. Byleth can just be like "**** everything in that general direction" with a flurry of long range attacks.

Not how it works, with the Stone Mask enemies straight up stop attacking, you can even murder one and it won't even retaliate it while you do so, and you really cant hear him. Shiro literally yelling at people to notice him got nothing beyond a "hmm did you hear something? nah i probably imagined it" and that only happened once, he says himself that he's been yelling and waving his arms for years but nobody notices him
Link whips that thing on, Byleth may as well forget he's there, and unless Link starts screaming at Byleth to notice him, Byleth isn't registering his existence, and even then, only barely.
Edit: In MM3D it also prevents the Gerudo Pirates from noticing Link, and Shiro says he's been yelling at them but they don't notice him still.

 

[TheGatememer]

Ganon, as in Ganondorf, the floating one.

Ah, will try to find a video if I can.

Edit: By stunning, do you mean that the Deku nuts do the same thing that Light Arrows do?

Not how it works, with the Stone Mask enemies straight up stop attacking, you can even murder one and it won't even retaliate it while you do so,
and you really cant hear him. Shiro literally yelling at people to notice him got nothing beyond a "hmm did you hear something? nah i probably imagined it".
Link whips that thing on, Byleth may as well forget he's there, and unless Link starts screaming at Byleth to notice him, Byleth isn't registering his existence, and even then, only barely.

From what I'm reading on the wiki, Tatl can still register that Shiro is saying something, albeit barely, which tells me that it is still possible to register that Link is there. Sure, Byleth may not be able to see Link, but he is definitely not going to forget that he's fighting someone, let alone when said person is actively attacking him. So the Stone Mask isn't gonna let Link just le default dance epic victory royale over Byleth without him noticing, especially considering the latter can block basically silent attacks from behind that he had no idea were coming.

The SotC has enough range to completely raze cities, and carve mountains, so either way, Byleth still has very wide area coverage even if he can't see Link.

 

[Chariot190]

From what I'm reading on the wiki, Tatl can still register that Shiro is saying something, albeit barely, which tells me that it is still possible to register that Link is there.

Tatl, the only person, ever, (maybe the gerudo captain too but eh) barely registered his existence, and then immediately thought it was actually nothing, and this was with him screaming at her from a foot away.
Meanwhile literally everything else, from monsters, ghosts, things with their own enhanced senses like various animals, Gerudos who by all accounts also have enhanced senses, and even Link, who also has enhanced senses, can't hear anything even with the person wearing it screaming at them and trying the best they possibly can to get one's attention.
Byleth isn't going to be hearing anything even if Link actively tries to get their attention, this is a feat for Tatl, not a anti-feat for the Stone Mask.

Sure, Byleth may not be able to see Link, but he is definitely not going to forget that he's fighting someone, let alone when said person is actively attacking him.

Tell that to every enemy in the game, they become completely imperceptible, if I had to compare, it'd be like Koishi from Touhou. They just don't perceive what the person wearing it is doing. The moment the mask goes on, they forget Link is even there and just go away.

So the Stone Mask isn't gonna let Link just le default dance epic victory royale over Byleth without him noticing, especially considering the latter can block basically silent attacks from behind that he had no idea were coming.

I'm going to have to vehemently disagree, with how the mask is shown and stated to work, Byleth has zero answers for it, nothing you said changes that.

 

[Chariot190]

The SotC has enough range to completely raze cities, and carve mountains, so either way, Byleth still has very wide area coverage even if he can't see Link.

And? What's stopping Link from just dodging? it has "range", in the sense that it can extend and cover lots of ground, but the actual tangible part of it that hurts can easily be dodged, and Link literally just has to move around to behind Byleth and call it a day or move away from where they're swinging it given Link is also gonna be effectively 2x as fast as this attack as well due to song of time, dodging the whip-like part is definitely feasible
Or just block it given the mirror shield can block attacks far beyond Link's paygrade, who already has a statistical advantage above Byleth.

 

[TheGatememer]

Tatl, the only person, ever, (maybe the gerudo captain too but eh) barely registered his existence, and then immediately thought it was actually nothing, and this was with him screaming at her from a foot away.
Meanwhile literally everything else, from monsters, ghosts, things with their own enhanced senses like various animals, Gerudos who by all accounts also have enhanced senses, and even Link, who also has enhanced senses, can't hear anything even with the person wearing it screaming at them and trying the best they possibly can to get one's attention.
Byleth isn't going to be hearing anything even if Link actively tries to get their attention, this is a feat for Tatl, not a anti-feat for the Stone Mask.

Tell that to every enemy in the game, they become completely imperceptible, if I had to compare, it'd be like Koishi from Touhou. They just don't perceive what the person wearing it is doing. The moment the mask goes on, they forget Link is even there and just go away.

I'm going to have to vehemently disagree, with how the mask is shown and stated to work, Byleth has zero answers for it, nothing you said changes that.

I'll concede on the Stone Mask point if you list some of the ES feats for Hylians/Gerudos, and if they match up to Byleth's.

And? What's stopping Link from just dodging? it has "range", in the sense that it can extend and cover lots of ground, but the actual tangible part of it that hurts can easily be dodged, and Link literally just has to move around to behind Byleth and call it a day or move away from where they're swinging it.
Or just block it given the mirror shield can block attacks far beyond Link's paygrade, who already has a statistical advantage above Byleth.

This is Byleth with a regular sword. Slap that onto a big ass whip sword and that's the Sword of the Creator. It definitely isn't as simple as blocking/dodging a single swing. And if we include it's Three Hopes abilities, each of those "attacks" you see actually hits twice. That's not even factoring damage boosts from Crests, or crits.

I did provide an argument above on how Byleth could debatably have an AP advantage.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll concede on the Stone Mask point if you list some of the ES feats for Hylians/Gerudos, and if they match up to Byleth's.

Uh, that isn't how it works
It's perception manip, having good senses isn't changing anything if the senses don't register it at all.
Tatl is an exception, her feats don't translate to Byleth's, especially because we don't even know why she could hear him, albeit only barely, because she sure as **** has no reason to have better hearing than a Gerudo, Link, various animals and more. And that's still with him literally screaming at her from point-blank, Link could just take out a light/ice arrow or something and fire it point-blank, or one of his other memey items.
also idk, i could look for some enhanced senses feats, but it'd probably take quite awhile, I don't have anything like that saved, all I got is some MM additions for a CRT I plan on doing, I'd have to go through a bunch of games to pick them up. Off the top of my head though, for this specific Link alone let alone other characters or enemies, Link and Gerudo's can sense people in their vicinity and people sneaking up on them who don't make any sound, which is basically the same thing as Byleth has listed

This is Byleth with a regular sword. Slap that onto a whip sword and that's the Sword of the Creator. It definitely isn't as simple as blocking/dodging a single swing. And if we include it's Three Hopes abilities, each of those "attacks" you see actually hits twice.

I am aware, I've played the game didnt beat it tho, beat 3H tho I liked that one I just finished saying Link could dodge a extendo whip that has km range, like 10m slashes isn't going to change my mind lad.
This is even assuming Byleth continues attacking, not even the Gerudo continues attacking Link once the mask goes on

It literally is that simple, he just has to dodge or block it, hold shield up, protects himself. It hitting twice only forces Link to hold it up for half a second longer, it's not like these attacks bypass obstacles and defenses.

Edit: By stunning, do you mean that the Deku nuts do the same thing that Light Arrows do?

Ngl, I haven't played OOT in like 8 years played MM just last month tho again
iirc tho if you drop a deku nut ganon goes "ugh" and freezes for a few seconds.

 

[TheGatememer]

Uh, that isn't how it works
It's perception manip, having good senses isn't changing anything if the senses don't register it at all.
Tatl is an exception, her feats don't translate to Byleth's, especially because we don't even know why she could hear him, albeit only barely, because she sure as **** has no reason to have better hearing than a Gerudo, Link, various animals and more. And that's still with him literally screaming at her from point-blank, Link could just take out a light/ice arrow or something and fire it point-blank, or one of his other memey items.
also idk, i could look for some enhanced senses feats, but it'd probably take quite awhile, I don't have anything like that saved, all I got is some MM additions for a CRT I plan on doing, I'd have to go through a bunch of games to pick them up. Off the top of my head though, for this specific Link alone let alone other characters or enemies, Link and Gerudo's can sense people in their vicinity and people sneaking up on them who don't make any sound, which is basically the same thing as Byleth has listed

Now I'm just confused tbh, it honestly just seems like really good Stealth Mastery / Invisibility if Tatl could somehow hear him despite it the senses not registering or whatever, but I don't feel like making a crt on it.

I am aware, I've played the game didnt beat it tho, beat 3H tho I liked that one I just finished saying Link could dodge a extendo whip that has km range, like 10m slashes isn't going to change my mind lad.
This is even assuming Byleth continues attacking, not even the Gerudo continues attacking Link once the mask goes on

It literally is that simple, he just has to dodge or block it, hold shield up, protects himself. It hitting twice only forces Link to hold it up for half a second longer, it's not like these attacks bypass obstacles and defenses.

Link isn't going to be able to block attacks coming from basically all directions with just a shield. It's not just a simple long-range slash, it also involves mid-air slashes appearing out of nowhere all around Link, with said slashes hitting twice, and has a chance to nullify Link's attacks or deal triple damage.

Ngl, I haven't played OOT in like 8 years played MM just last month tho again
iirc tho if you drop a deku nut ganon goes "ugh" and freezes for a few seconds.

yea no luck so far on finding a video, since everyone just uses Light Arrows.

 

[Lonkitt]

yea no luck so far on finding a video, since everyone just uses Light Arrows.

They are cowards

 

[Chariot190]

Now I'm just confused tbh, it honestly just seems like really good Stealth Mastery / Invisibility if Tatl could somehow hear him despite it the senses not registering or whatever, but I don't feel like making a crt on it.

It isn't, you're grossly exaggerating what actually happens, Tatl barely heard him and that was him screaming at her from like a foot away, and Link who's right next to her didn't even hear it.
He says himself that yelling and screaming and actively trying to get someone to notice him (Even while in a fortress filled with Gerudo who don't want anyone in) but nobody ever has even taken notice that he's there, something he's been doing for years in his own words.
if it was stealth, standing right in front of people, stabbing them to death, and yelling at them wouldnt make it so they still dont react, Link can literally walk up to someone and pull out the bow so close he's basically touching them with it, and they won't recognize he's there
Also it's explicitly stated to make the wearer imperceptible, akin to a mere stone (Hence the name, but it's even worse because in 64 he surrounds himself with stone pattern and the damn rocks are more noticeable lmao, you even need the Lens of Truth to bypass it, an item that sees the truth and through illusions, fakes, through things, invisibility, etc, basically revealing the truth of the matter

Link isn't going to be able to block attacks coming from basically all directions with just a shield. It's not just a simple long-range slash, it also involves mid-air slashes appearing out of nowhere all around Link, with said slashes hitting twice, and has a chance to nullify Link's attacks or deal triple damage.

Since when was the SotC an omnidirectional attack? It's not an explosion.
Again, wouldn't matter though.
shouldnt Goron Link outstat hard thinking on it, he's quite a bit above normal Link, and Gilded Sword is quite a bit above Link's normal sword

 

[TheGatememer]

It isn't, you're grossly exaggerating what actually happens, Tatl barely heard him and that was him screaming at her from like a foot away, and Link who's right next to her didn't even hear it.
He says himself that yelling and screaming and actively trying to get someone to notice him (Even while in a fortress filled with Gerudo who don't want anyone in) but nobody ever has even taken notice that he's there, something he's been doing for years in his own words.

If it is perception manipulation, it clearly doesn't block the senses all the way if Tatl could notice hear him, who according to you has no reason to have better hearing than a Gerudo.

Since when was the SotC an omnidirectional attack? It's not an explosion.
Again, wouldn't matter though.
shouldnt Goron Link outstat hard thinking on it, he's quite a bit above normal Link, and Gilded Sword is quite a bit above Link's normal sword

I never said it was an explosion-like omnidirectional attack. I'm saying that sword slashes appear out of thin air in all directions in addition to Byleth's normal sword swings. It would matter if each of those slashes has a chance of dealing triple to sextuple damage, and has a chance of healing Byleth + nullifying Link's ability to counterattack

 

[Chariot190]

If it is perception manipulation, it clearly doesn't block the senses all the way if Tatl could notice hear him, who according to you has no reason to have better hearing than a Gerudo.

lad, why do you think Tatl having arguably the best sense feat in all of Zelda matters for this match?
It wouldn't, you're taking a feat for someone else and saying because this person could do it, so could Byleth, while ignoring the extreme circumstance of the dude literally yelling in her face ignoring years of him doing exactly that didn't help, while ignoring the dozens and dozens of characters that can't hear him including those with enhanced senses as well, including Link who was right next to Tatl. I don't quite know how you take a fairy hearing a dude to mean it isn't perception manip when that's literally the whole point of it, you'd have to actually just ignore everything it's ever done to come to that conclusion.
Matter of the fact is, if Link couldn't hear him or perceive him, then neither can Byleth, they both have a similar enhanced sense feat as well in that they can sense people from behind who don't make noise. And if Byleth can't hear him, can't see him, can't even register what he's doing and arguably wouldn't even remember that he was fighting Link, I see no reason why this doesn't just count as a win button.

I never said it was an explosion-like omnidirectional attack. I'm saying that sword slashes appear out of thin air in all directions in addition to Byleth's normal sword swings. It would matter if each of those slashes has a chance of dealing triple to sextuple damage, and has a chance of healing Byleth + nullifying Link's ability to counterattack

I hope you're not talking about the warrior's footage because that's just obligatory anime "slash once, then a bunch of FTE slashes appear because they slash super fast trope", it isn't Byleth swinging his sword once and then like a dozen random slashes of air manifest if it was you'd they'd have air manip for that
A chance to? Lad, how long do you think this fight is gonna last? Byleth isn't going to get many chances to attack, also Goron Link should be a few times stronger than base Link anyhow and the mirror shield would straight up facetank anything Byleth throws at it, it'd also deflect back any magic or various projectile attacks
Nullifying his counterattack only applies to the immediate next action, the following actions or his own actions when engaging are fine, as well as actions taken outside of direct combat.

Stone Mask still negs diff ngl, and we haven't even gotten into some of Link's other more unconventional stuff like moving forward in time.

Though I will say, why are you using Warriors footage instead of how it's portrayed in the main game? Isn't Byleth's profile for 3 Houses in particular? We should be using how stuff acts in that.
If we go with warriors footage, despite the fact Byleth's profile seemingly doesn't recognize it as canon given i don't see a mention of it, there's also Hyrule Warriors that give Young Link wacky anime effects too, for example, Can burst speed fast enough to vanish much like Byleth with Brave Blades
As well as air slashes and a bunch of other stuff. If we go with warriors, it doesnt change much as hyrule warriors exists too.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Link FRA.

 

[koopa3144]

Link FRA.

Counted

 

[TheGatememer]

lad, why do you think Tatl having arguably the best sense feat in all of Zelda matters for this match?
It wouldn't, you're taking a feat for someone else and saying because this person could do it, so could Byleth, while ignoring the extreme circumstance of the dude literally yelling in her face ignoring years of him doing exactly that didn't help, while ignoring the dozens and dozens of characters that can't hear him including those with enhanced senses as well, including Link who was right next to Tatl. I don't quite know how you take a fairy hearing a dude to mean it isn't perception manip when that's literally the whole point of it, you'd have to actually just ignore everything it's ever done to come to that conclusion.

Like I said, assuming it is perception manipulation, then it doesn't block out the senses entirely. If it did, Tatl wouldn't even have heard Shiro in the first place, good senses or not. Saying that Shiro was yelling in her face is exaggerating, Shiro was completely exhausted, and didn't even have the strength to get up. Delving any further goes into nitpick territory so I won't go further into that.

You didn't list any ES for the Gerudo/Hylians, so I could only really assume they would just have greater senses than the norm. There is quite a difference between just having greater senses than the norm, and being able to easily block silent sneak attacks from behind, despite both qualifying for ES. If we base it on that, it stands to reason that if someone like Tatl could hear Shiro, it wouldn't be controversial to assume someone like Byleth, who has displayed much better ES feats than just "having above average senses" could, you know, at least discern someone is actively trying to/is stabbing him.

Matter of the fact is, if Link couldn't hear him or perceive him, then neither can Byleth, they both have a similar enhanced sense feat as well in that they can sense people from behind who don't make noise. And if Byleth can't hear him, can't see him, can't even register what he's doing and arguably wouldn't even remember that he was fighting Link, I see no reason why this doesn't just count as a win button.

If Link does indeed have ES feats comparable to Byleth like that, then I'm willing to concede on the Stone Mask arguments.

I hope you're not talking about the warrior's footage because that's just obligatory anime "slash once, then a bunch of FTE slashes appear because they slash super fast trope", it isn't Byleth swinging his sword once and then like a dozen random slashes of air manifest

It is tho. Byleth only swings their sword 6 times, yet we see way more slashes than that.

A chance to? Lad, how long do you think this fight is gonna last?
Byleth isn't going to get many chances to attack, also Goron Link should be a few times stronger than base Link anyhow and the mirror shield would straight up facetank anything Byleth throws at it, it'd also deflect back any magic or various projectile attacks

Unless you're saying that Link can kill Byleth within seconds from 4 km away, Byleth will have plenty of opportunities to attack thanks to the Chalice of Beginnings, and SotC. None of Link's arrows are going to kill Byleth that quickly. And I already went over the Ice Arrows arguments.

Nullifying his counterattack only applies to the immediate next action, the following actions or his own actions when engaging are fine, as well as actions taken outside of direct combat.

It's still going to leave an opening long enough for Byleth to immediately follow up with more attacks, which again, have a chance at nulling.

Though I will say, why are you using Warriors footage instead of how it's portrayed in the main game? Isn't Byleth's profile for 3 Houses in particular? We should be using how stuff acts in that.

Because both are canon, Three Hopes is just a "What If?" timeline where Shez survived/met the 3 lords.

If we go with warriors footage, despite the fact Byleth's profile seemingly doesn't recognize it as canon given i don't see a mention of it, there's also Hyrule Warriors that give Young Link wacky anime effects too, for example, Can burst speed fast enough to vanish much like Byleth with Brave Blades
As well as air slashes and a bunch of other stuff. If we go with warriors, it doesnt change much as hyrule warriors exists too.

Unlike Three Hopes, Hyrule Warriors has a different canon (as in, it doesn't take place in the same universe), so no, the two aren't really comparable. The two also have different profiles, so there's also that.

Anyways, like I said earlier, if what you're saying about Link's ES is true, then yea I concede; the Stone Mask should let him take the win.

 

[Chariot190]

Like I said, assuming it is perception manipulation, then it doesn't block out the senses entirely. If it did, Tatl wouldn't even have heard Shiro in the first place, good senses or not. Saying that Shiro was yelling in her face is exaggerating, Shiro was completely exhausted, and didn't even have the strength to get up. Delving any further goes into nitpick territory so I won't go further into that.

No, it isn't exaggerating, he literally says he was yelling. He also says he's been yelling at people for years and not once did anyone notice him.
He was exhausted because he's been screaming and waving his arms widely at people for years.
Fact of the matter is he quite literally yells at her, and she barely notices, and Link right beside her doesn't even pick up on it and needs a magical item to even converse with him.

You didn't list any ES for the Gerudo/Hylians, so I could only really assume they would just have greater senses than the norm.

I literally did? Link and Gerudo's can sense people sneaking up on them from behind who don't make any noise. It's even mentioned on his profile.

There is quite a difference between just having greater senses than the norm, and being able to easily block silent sneak attacks from behind, despite both qualifying for ES.

But I listed a feat that's even accepted

If we base it on that, it stands to reason that if someone like Tatl could hear Shiro, it wouldn't be controversial to assume someone like Byleth, who has displayed much better ES feats than just "having above average senses" could,

You keep saying that, tough luck, if Link or Gerudo's, let alone a bunch of animals with senses far beyond what Byleth did because be real, having the senses to stop a surprise attack doesn't mean shit compared to something like a bat's hearing
Byleth isn't reacting, the only feat mentioned thus far for his enhanced senses isn't even beyond the multitude of animals that can't hear Link with it on. Tatl having a good feat doesn't mean the next person who rolls up with enhanced senses can, that's even assuming she did with hearing as Link by all accounts should have better hearing and he can't hear Shiro, if anything I'd argue Tatl's, well, tatl ability played a role.
And again, Link has similar feats to Byleth's own, Byleth's enhanced sense feat isn't even stated to be hearing, actually, looking at it, Byleth's enhanced senses feat isn't even that good, it's just him blocking a sword thrown at him randomly, who knows how he sensed it, you're kinda assuming a lot here lad.

you know, at least discern someone is actively trying to/is stabbing him.

The mask makes it so every enemy in the game, that isn't some ultra giga god boss, doesn't even pick up when he's stabbing them in the face, also he doesn't need to stab? He has more than just sword attacks, he can whip out arrows if he wanted to.

If Link does indeed have ES feats comparable to Byleth like that, then I'm willing to concede on the Stone Mask arguments.

It's literally mentioned on his profile
It's like the third thing dont know why it doesnt link to anything though, but then again half his stuff isn't cited, I'll have to fix that

It is tho. Byleth only swings their sword 6 times, yet we see way more slashes than that.

That's no different than like Raiden swinging his sword once, and then like 30 slashes happen after, I'm almost positive it's just a cool anime 2fast4u effect.

Unless you're saying that Link can kill Byleth within seconds from 4 km away, Byleth will have plenty of opportunities to attack thanks to the Chalice of Beginnings, and SotC. None of Link's arrows are going to kill Byleth that quickly. And I already went over the Ice Arrows arguments.

Tbh, he could, stone mask into an ice arrow would do it.
And you didn't, you said
"Ice Arrows just won't work, since Byleth can resist ice magic via Sothis Shield, and can break out from being frozen."
There's a huge difference between being frozen, and being frozen solid, if Byleth is able to break out of ice, that means he isn't being frozen solid, merely incased in ice. Several enemies if struck get frozen solid, Byleth doesn't have much of an innate resistance to think he'd be an exception.
Also, how potent are the ice spells Byleth takes? Ice arrows can flash freeze volcanos and magma, they're pretty potent in terms of freezing.

And the sothis shield is bad, it has to 1. Be actively used manually, if Link gets it off first, gg. 2. It's on a time limit, can only be used once a fight, and the resistance it grants decreasing constantly till it runs out. The effect only lasts 3 turns, with each turn the defense decreasing meaning even just waiting a tiny bit would make the nullification a chance, and waiting a bit longer would make it as if it isn't even there.

If Link has the stone mask on, he can just time it out, or even spam them forcing it to run out or he could just warp a few minutes into the future to skip past having to deal with it

It's still going to leave an opening long enough for Byleth to immediately follow up with more attacks, which again, have a chance at nulling.

Not really? Link has several masks that can help out with that, and that's only if it procs, the fact it's merely chance based doesn't make it consistent or even 100% reliable, while all of Link's stuff has hard effects.

Because both are canon, Three Hopes is just a "What If?" timeline where Shez survived/met the 3 lords.

Yet it's not even mentioned on the profile anywhere? And if it's a "what if", why would we say Byleth's capabilities are the same between them if they diverged? Especially when it isn't at all reflected in the main game itself.

Unlike Three Hopes, Hyrule Warriors has a different canon (as in, it doesn't take place in the same universe), so no, the two aren't really comparable. The two also have different profiles, so there's also that.

Not quite, to be exact the official stance on the subject matter is that HW isn't "canon", but it does take place in an alternate dimension, and while it may be an alternate world, it's explicitly noted to be still technically connected to the timeline, and that the characters from the various games are indeed said characters from the Zelda Timeline.
It's more a thing of it doesn't fit narratively in the main canon, but instead acts as a what if in a parallel world featuring the very same characters that do exist in the main timeline and that isnt just me being coy, aonuma flat-out says they're the same individuals from the main canon, however that works

Of course I think using it is sus as **** and should be ignored in favor of the main titles but you're doing literally that

 

[TheGatememer]

It's literally mentioned on his profile
It's like the third thing dont know why it doesnt link to anything though, but then again half his stuff isn't cited, I'll have to fix that

Don't know how I missed that tbh

That's no different than like Raiden swinging his sword once, and then like 30 slashes happen after, I'm almost positive it's just a cool anime 2fast4u effect.

We see enemies being hit by it, so no, it's not just some fancy effect that does nothing.

Tbh, he could, stone mask into an ice arrow would do it.
And you didn't, you said
"Ice Arrows just won't work, since Byleth can resist ice magic via Sothis Shield, and can break out from being frozen."
There's a huge difference between being frozen, and being frozen solid, if Byleth is able to break out of ice, that means he isn't being frozen solid, merely incased in ice. Several enemies if struck get frozen solid, Byleth doesn't have much of an innate resistance to think he'd be an exception.

Don't Ice arrows also encase enemies in Ice? It doesn't seem to freeze them completely solid from the videos I'm looking at.

Also, how potent are the ice spells Byleth takes? Ice arrows can flash freeze volcanos and magma, they're pretty potent in terms of freezing.

I know some ice spells can freeze entire rivers and oceans instantly, but Ice Arrows do seem more potent if they can freeze big volcanos.

And the sothis shield is bad, it has to 1. Be actively used manually, if Link gets it off first, gg. 2. It's on a time limit, can only be used once a fight, and the resistance it grants decreasing constantly till it runs out. The effect only lasts 3 turns, with each turn the defense decreasing meaning even just waiting a tiny bit would make the nullification a chance, and waiting a bit longer would make it as if it isn't even there.

Several of his Heroes Relics also passively increase his resistance.

Not really? Link has several masks that can help out with that, and that's only if it procs, the fact it's merely chance based doesn't make it consistent or even 100% reliable, while all of Link's stuff has hard effects.

With the number of attacks coming out at once, the chances of it activating are high, if not basically guaranteed. It doesn't even have to do any damage to activate either.

Yet it's not even mentioned on the profile anywhere? And if it's a "what if", why would we say Byleth's capabilities are the same between them if they diverged? Especially when it isn't at all reflected in the main game itself.

...Because it's literally the same person, in the exact same universe, except in one timeline, a purple haired mercenary managed to survive against them. Neither game is "more canon" over the other. Koei Tecmo also developed both games

Not quite, to be exact the official stance on the subject matter is that HW isn't "canon", but it does take place in an alternate dimension, and while it may be an alternate world, it's explicitly noted to be still technically connected to the timeline, and that the characters from the various games are indeed said characters from the Zelda Timeline.
It's more a thing of it doesn't fit narratively in the main canon, but instead acts as a what if in a parallel world featuring the very same characters that do exist in the main timeline and that isnt just me being coy, aonuma flat-out says they're the same individuals from the main canon, however that works

Of course I think using it is sus as **** and should be ignored in favor of the main titles but you're doing literally that

I'm not knowledgeable enough on Zelda canon to argue whether or not HW is canon or not. (also, if it's canon, then HW!YL should probably have Genius Intelligence scaling to his counterpart)

What I can confidently say is that both Three Houses, and Three Hopes are canon. Neither game is "more canon" over the other, so there isn't anything wrong with me bringing up Byleth's techniques from both games.

Except Divine Pulse, but that's another story

 

[TheGatememer]

By the way, I vote Link, so that's grace.

 

[Chariot190]

We see enemies being hit by it, so no, it's not just some fancy effect that does nothing.

I didn't say it was an effect that does nothing, just a general 2fast4u anime effect, the slashes still happen and hurt.

Don't Ice arrows also encase enemies in Ice? It doesn't seem to freeze them completely solid from the videos I'm looking at.

Depends, some enemies get flash frozen solid and when struck break into pieces. Some don't. And some just don't get affected at all. Unfortunately, I don't think Byleth exactly has the means to stop arrows that can flash freeze volcanos in a instant from freezing them solid like a few of the mook enemies.

I know some ice spells can freeze entire rivers and oceans instantly, but Ice Arrows do seem more potent if they can freeze big volcanos.

Oceans? My brother in christ, if that's true, Byleth sure as **** ain't island level, that's like 6-B feat at minimum iirc.
rivers suck tho

Several of his Heroes Relics also passively increase his resistance.

Perhaps, but then again, why would any of this actually prevent Byleth from being frozen? It's not even a status effect thing, it's more like "so cold it freezes things" type of thing. Unless said artifacts negate the temperature drop?

...Because it's literally the same person, in the exact same universe, except in one timeline, a purple haired mercenary managed to survive against them. Neither game is "more canon" over the other. Koei Tecmo also developed both games

you literally just described hyrule warriors tho

I'm not knowledgeable enough on Zelda canon to argue whether or not HW is canon or not. (also, if it's canon, then HW!YL should probably have Genius Intelligence scaling to his counterpart)

It isn't canon, but the characters featured in it are the same from the main timeline? If that makes sense? It's kinda like a Spiderman No way home situation.

What I can confidently say is that both Three Houses, and Three Hopes are canon. Neither game is "more canon" over the other, so there isn't anything wrong with me bringing up Byleth's techniques from both games. Except Divine Pulse, but that's another story

Idk man, the fact things are portrayed and work completely differently between games is a bit of a red flag. How does most of Byleth's weapons and special abilities work in 3H then? Like vantage, aegis, etc
If they work differently, we're running into an issue of things functioning differently and at that point we have to pick which one to use.

 

[TheGatememer]

Oceans? My brother in christ, if that's true, Byleth sure as **** ain't island level, that's like 6-B feat at minimum iirc.
rivers suck tho

I mean, High 6-A Byleth has basically been accepted, it just hasn't been applied for like a year. There are also talks for Low 2-C Byleth.

Perhaps, but then again, why would any of this actually prevent Byleth from being frozen? It's not even a status effect thing, it's more like "so cold it freezes things" type of thing. Unless said artifacts negate the temperature drop?

If we really wanna wank it, then I could say Byleth has over 30 layers of resistance against ice manipulation

Resistance reduces damage from Ice Spells, so it could reduce the damage Byleth receives from Ice Arrows I guess maybe idk ¯\(ツ)/¯

you literally just described hyrule warriors tho

Hyrule Warriors is a crossover game between games, Three Houses just has a timeline split.

It isn't canon, but the characters featured in it are the same from the main timeline? If that makes sense? It's kinda like a Spiderman No way home situation.

I mean No Way Home is just canon so I don't know if that comparison works here

Idk man, the fact things are portrayed and work completely differently between games is a bit of a red flag. How does most of Byleth's weapons and special abilities work in 3H then? Like vantage, aegis, etc If they work differently, we're running into an issue of things functioning differently and at that point we have to pick which one to use.

Plenty of weapons and skills work differently across games in FE, even within the same universe, like the Falchion from FE1 v FE3. So abilities working differently across different games isn't a disqualifying factor for canon. We briefly talked about it in the general discussion thread, but not sure if we ever reached a conclusion on it. It'll probably be decided upon in the eventual Three Hopes CRT.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, High 6-A Byleth has basically been accepted, it just hasn't been applied for like a year. There are also talks for Low 2-C Byleth.

If High 6-A Giant and LA get accepted this couldmaybe work still, though it'd be way harder for Link

If we really wanna wank it, then I could say Byleth has over 30 layers of resistance against ice manipulation

Resistance reduces damage from Ice Spells, so it could reduce the damage Byleth receives from Ice Arrows I guess maybe idk ¯\(ツ)/¯

how does that even work, like it wouldnt prevent the arrows from freezing the liquid content in the air or body would it?

Hyrule Warriors is a crossover game between games, Three Houses just has a timeline split.

"it's literally the same person, in the exact same universe, except in one timeline, a purple haired mercenary managed to survive against them."
Was talking about that, that's basically exactly how the characters from the games get described as.
>I mean No Way Home is just canon so I don't know if that comparison works here
it's canon, but takes place in an alternate world, but featuring the same exact characters

Plenty of weapons and skills work differently across games in FE, even within the same universe, like the Falchion from FE1 v FE3. So abilities working differently across different games isn't a disqualifying factor for canon. We briefly talked about it in the general discussion thread, but not sure if we ever reached a conclusion on it. It'll probably be decided upon in the eventual Three Hopes CRT.

Doesn't that just mean theyre widly inconsistent
Ive only played like 5-6 FE games so I wouldnt know if everything always works the same

 

[koopa3144]

By the way, I vote Link, so that's grace.

Counted, grace has now started!

 

[TheGatememer]

If High 6-A Giant and LA get accepted this couldmaybe work still, though it'd be way harder for Link

I'm pretty sure Byleth AP stomps since they're gonna be 5.6 Exatons

how does that even work, like it wouldnt prevent the arrows from freezing the liquid content in the air or body would it?

¯\(ツ)/¯

Doesn't that just mean theyre widly inconsistent
Ive only played like 5-6 FE games so I wouldnt know if everything always works the same

I think the abilities are most likely just going to be composited

 

[koopa3144]

Grace is now over! Link has won with 7 votes!